Michael Jackson and Farrah died today

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
So that automatically means that he molested them? I used to sleep in the same bed as my grandmother every time I spent the night with her. My brothers would do the same when one of them spent the night with her. Did that automatically make her a pedophile? I've had a grandchild sleep with me when she spent the night. Does that automatically make me a pedophile?

Everyone is so quick to judge what they don't understand. I have a great love for children. An innocent, protective, motherly type love. Nothing perverse or deviant. Michael also had a great love for children and since he was acquitted on all charges by a jury, I refuse to believe that his love for children was anything but an innocent, protective and fatherly type love. As for the lawsuits, they came after his acquittal and are NOT an admission or proof of guilt. They are the result of greed on the part of the child's parents.

If the child had actually been molested then I don't think any amount of money would have satisfied the parents. They would have wanted the molester locked up with the key thrown away. Maybe castrated as well.. well I would want that added anyway.
This goes back to my original point about celebrity worship. Why do you give more credence to Michael Jackson's denials than the words of his many accusers? There is a tremendous amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting MJ abused young boys. Please tell me you weren't waiting for him to admit to molesting children. He would never admit to such crimes because doing so would have sent him to prison.

Truth is Michael Jackson was a very sick and troubled man. Given his ability to lie, manipulate the public and spend tens of million$$$, he avoided criminal liability. I wouldn't be too surprised if numerous people step forward now to expose his transgressions. Hush money dies with the devil.

BTW, don't be suckered into thinking the courts are infallible. Way too often, our court system fails to find truth.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Aristotle: I really think 'celebrity worship' is more about the media's needs [to make money] than the public's desires. I never gave much thought to MJ, just assumed he's probably guilty, [didn't care enough to read about it at the time], but after reading the article linked by Inkasnana [post 100], it sure looks as if he was the perfect target for an opportunistic scumbag to accuse. Turtle's description of him as a 'man' who never had a childhood, and remained a child himself emotionally, fits with the facts I do know, so it seems as if MJ was innocent of the pedophile charges. Having come within a hair of being 'set up' for a domestic violence charge myself, I KNOW how easy it is for the manipulative connivers to pull it off, cos the innocent never even see it coming, ok?
If you can't believe that an adult can sleep with a child without molesting the child, then I feel sorry for you.
 

Black Sheep

Expert Expediter

If you can't believe that an adult can sleep with a child without molesting the child, then I feel sorry for you.

We're not talking about just any adult. This conversation refers to a guy that's obviously dealing with arrested development, and possibly other mental problems as well. Remember, the boys he was sleeping with were not 4-5 year olds; I believe some of them were in the 9-11 year range which is on the threshold of puberty. Most boys this age don't find attractive the idea of sleeping in the same bed with a grown man from outside their immediate family. Another point to be made is that these public figures need to be aware of the appearance of impropriety, just like politicians if not more so. If MJ didn't have the mental capacity to understand this concept, his handlers or family members should have stepped in and put a stop to it. I can't imagine his father Joe Jackson going along with the idea of his son sleeping with little boys, innocent or not. An article in an earlier post made a good point: how many of us would let our 10 year old son sleep in the same bed with someone like Jackson?
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I totally agree that most boys wouldn't want to sleep with an unrelated adult male, but MJ was a huge star, not a ' stranger', ok? His home was named Neverland, [a good indication of his social age, methinks] and had an amusement park, petting zoo, miniature train - not as 'bait', but because it's what MJ enjoyed himself. His closest companion was a chimpanzee named Bubbles, fer cryin out loud - this is not a normal adult male, ya think? But that doesn't make him a pedophile.
That MJ was an adult who lived apart from his father, and had little desire to remain under the thumb of the man who deprived him of the childhood he sought to recreate, says that Joe Jackson was not able to 'put a stop to it'. And why would he? No one ever claimed anything improper ocurred, except the one boy, whose 'memory' was both compromised and thoroughly discredited.
If you think there's any good evidence that MJ molested any child, please share it - I haven't seen any, myself.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
O - also agree that most parents wouldn't allow their child to sleep with 'someone like MJ' - however, if you read the article linked in post 100, you'll have to agree that the father in question was an opportunistic scumbag who recognized a chance to cash in.
Which he did, sadly.
All parents aren't good ones.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Some folks are going to extraordinary lengths to excuse Michael Jackson's behavior. In my opinion, and that's all it is, Jackson's conduct towards children is inexcusable. Michael Jackson's proclivity for sleeping almost exclusively with young boys should set off alarm bells and sirens for everyone who cares.

There simply is no excuse. There are explanations, but no excuse. The whole truth about Jackson's inappropriate conduct will never be known. Someone with Jackson's wealth could buy the truth, shade the truth, manufacture truth, conceal truth, and in the end... take the truth to his grave.

In time, lots of revelations may come forward. Equally contemptible are the starstruck parents who offered up their young children for Jackson's enjoyment. Presumably, parents are expected to exercise sound judgment, discernment and due caution where their children's well-being is concerned. Why did their protective instincts fail? Answer: celebrity worship. These "parents" wanted to be in the presence of Michael Jackson. Their children's bodies and souls were the price of admission.
 

flattop40

Expert Expediter
You have to have a license to drive a car

You have to have a license to catch a fish

But they will let any scumbag be a father
 

inkasnana

Expert Expediter
In time, lots of revelations may come forward. Equally contemptible are the starstruck parents who offered up their young children for Jackson's enjoyment. Presumably, parents are expected to exercise sound judgment, discernment and due caution where their children's well-being is concerned. Why did their protective instincts fail? Answer: celebrity worship. These "parents" wanted to be in the presence of Michael Jackson. Their children's bodies and souls were the price of admission.

You didn't read the article did you? Read below for some of the important information it contains.

And what became of the massive investigation of Jackson? After millions of dollars were spent by prosecutors and police departments in two jurisdictions, and after two grand juries questioned close to 200 witnesses, including 30 children who knew Jackson, not a single corroborating witness could be found. (In June 1994, still determined to find even one corroborating witness, three prosecutors and two police detectives flew to Australia to again question Wade Robson, the boy who had acknowledged that he’d slept in the same bed with Jackson. Once again, the boy said that nothing bad had happened.)

The sole allegations leveled against Jackson, then, remain those made by one youth, and only after the boy had been give a potent hypnotic drug, leaving him susceptible to the power of suggestion.

“I found the case suspicious,” says Dr. Underwager, the Minneapolis psychiatrist, “precisely because the only evidence came from one boy. That would be highly unlikely. Actual pedophiles have an average of 240 victims in their lifetime. It’s a progressive disorder. They’re never satisfied.”

Given the slim evidence against Jackson, it seems unlikely he would have been found guilty had the case gone to trial. But in the court of public opinion, there are no restrictions. People are free to speculate as they wish, and Jackson’s eccentricity leaves him vulnerable to the likelihood that the public has assumed the worst about him.

As far as MJ sleeping "exclusively" with young boys.. hello.. when boys spend the night together they don't sleep with the friends sister!! His mindset was that of a young boy himself. That is why he didn't act as an adult when he had his "sleep-overs" with his young friends. He was living the childhood that he never had when his friends came to visit. Why is that so difficult for so many people to comprehend or to refuse to believe?

I am not a Michael Jackson "fanatic" and I would stand up for and defend anyone who was being so falsely accused. It just really irritates the heck out of me when people are so adamant about believing hearsay, rumor and gossip that they can't accept any other explanation. That in itself is childish behavior.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Inkasnana... you are making a valiant attempt at excusing Michael Jackson's behavior. Offering his "mindset" as being childlike himself does not excuse a 45 year-old man enticing young boys into his bed. It's a big-time NO-NO under all conditions. Every psychologist and psychiatrist I've heard speak on this topic says the adult-child sleeping arrangement is fraught with danger for the child. It really is basic common sense.

What you call rumor or hearsay, others may call truth. There are many more allegations out there against Michael Jackson. Many more than the few you cited. Now that alleged victims are free from intimidation, some may step forward to speak publicly about their experiences with Mr. Jackson.

You choose to believe Michael Jackson's version of events. I do not. He forfeited any claim to credibility a long time ago.
 

inkasnana

Expert Expediter
It's a big-time NO-NO under all conditions. Every psychologist and psychiatrist I've heard speak on this topic says the adult-child sleeping arrangement is fraught with danger for the child. It really is basic common sense.

So what you're saying is that when I let my granddaughter sleep with me in my bed when she spends the night, that I'm going to potentially molest her and that she will be in danger from me. Interesting. I'll have to ask a shrink about that because I never thought of myself as a probable pedophile. What in the flappinfrikker has this world come to??
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Agree 100% with Inkasnana - it's not MJ being defended, it's the need for people to learn the facts before jumping to conclusions. I don't want anyone's erroneous convictions leading to my conviction in a court of law, or public opinion, ok?
Aristotle, I bet you're one who thinks the woman who got burnt by hot coffee and sued was an example of an outrageous money grab, correct?
The facts are otherwise - but just as you clearly didn't read the article on MJ's ONE AND ONLY accuser, you probably don't know the facts about the hot coffee lawsuit, either - just continue spreading your misconceptions as if they're facts, because the facts don't make a bit of difference, when you think you already know, do they?
Where are these 'other accusers' to whom you refer?
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
So what you're saying is that when I let my granddaughter sleep with me in my bed when she spends the night, that I'm going to potentially molest her and that she will be in danger from me. Interesting. I'll have to ask a shrink about that because I never thought of myself as a probable pedophile. What in the flappinfrikker has this world come to??

Inkasnana... I made no personal comments about you. Nor would I. You're trying to deflect the conversation away from Michael Jackson and make it about yourself. You cannot superimpose your granmotherly motives and intentions toward children onto Michael Jackson. He had a long history of unscrupulous behavior with young boys. Why anyone would want to defend a 45 year-old man taking young boys into his bed is a mystery to me. This thread is about Michael Jackson. Let's keep it there.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
This goes back to my original point about celebrity worship. Why do you give more credence to Michael Jackson's denials than the words of his many accusers?
Ahhh ..... lemme see ..... how about this:

Because under our system of jurisprudence, a person is to be considered innocent, until proven guilty ....

There is a reason why that principal came about, and became part of our legal heritage - largely because it was deemed, that in a free society, where honest folks have rights (or ought to), that erring on the side of protecting the truly innocent by not convicting them of crimes they did not commit, vastly outweighs the benefits of convicting the truly guilty, at the expense of the innocent:

What damage is done to a man, who, having done nothing wrong, has his life taken away ?

In case anyone misses the point above, I am not speaking of ones physical life, but the Life one creates themselves. And you can be absolutely be certain that Michael Jackson, had his life, taken away .... his first life as a child, by his father, at a young age .... and then the one he managed to create for himself, by a couple of sick, degraded individuals that would apparently stoop to any level for money.

I'm curious aristotle about a couple of things .... No. 1 - are you an ex-LEO ? .... and No. 2 - did you even bother to read the article (one which was apparently done by someone who still has an inkling what the words investigative journalism mean) that Inks's nana linked ? ...... a blatant conspiracy if ever there was one .... to extort money from someone .... whose only real crime may have been that although a little eccentric, he probably was a nice guy, and never really grew up.

No credible evidence whatsoever:

"And what became of the massive investigation of Jackson? After millions of dollars were spent by prosecutors and police departments in two jurisdictions, and after two grand juries questioned close to 200 witnesses, including 30 children who knew Jackson, not a single corroborating witness could be found."

"The sole allegations leveled against Jackson, then, remain those made by one youth, and only after the boy had been give a potent hypnotic drug, leaving him susceptible to the power of suggestion."


Just the accusations from a single kid who, in addition to the above, was under the influence of a father who was apparently repeatedly tape-recorded stating that he was out to "get" Jackson (for money of course) and ruin him, represented by a lawyer who gives new meaning to the words "scum-sucking bottom-dweller" .....

Those two jokers oughta fry ..... if not in the here and now, then certainly in the hereafter.

If you want an actual "something" to be all incensed, upset, and revolted by, then try the fact that neither of those two scum ever had charges leveled at them .... where's your sense of moral outrage on that one ? Both at the individuals themselves who perpetrated the act, and the individuals who are part of the criminal-justice system (and at times, it is truly "criminal") that failed to obtain justice.

There is a tremendous amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting MJ abused young boys.
Bull****.

Please, please, please tell us all what exactly that evidence is .... illuminate for us some of this "evidence" (circumstantial or otherwise) .... and show us it isn't just mere accusations (apparently almost all of which apparently come from folks who have, or potentially have, something to gain, in a financial sense)

In case the fact has escaped you, a mere accusation isn't proof of anything. If it were, our prisons would likely be over-crowded by the recently divorced.

Please tell me you weren't waiting for him to admit to molesting children. He would never admit to such crimes because doing so would have sent him to prison.
And please tell me you don't stand ready and willing to convict someone on a single accusation, with no supporting evidence or corroboration - simply because you find the crime being accused so horrific ... (the old "better-to-lock-'em-up-cause-we-know-that-everybody-is-guilty-of-something" cop mentality ...)

Truth is Michael Jackson was a very sick and troubled man.
Truth is, Michael Jackson is a very dead man.

Given his ability to lie, manipulate the public and spend tens of million$$$, he avoided criminal liability.
I'll have to admit, I wasn't particularly a fan, nor a follower of Michael Jackson, although I did admire some of his work .... I'm not familiar with his ability to lie (apparently you are - perhaps you will enlighten us all ?)

I know enough of him to know one thing for sure, and one thing only: He was an incredibly talented individual. I know that by personal observation .... anything beyond that would be mere speculation.

As in the case with many artists and other talented individuals, the guy was perhaps a bit eccentric .....

Possibly the most ironic thing about this conversation so far, is the way that a number of people on here have commented against Michael Jackson - indeed with utter disgust and revulsion - none of them with any close personal observation, or actual knowledge of the facts - I'd guess that their "knowledge" is largely derived from the news media (which, in another breath, they would tell you isn't to be trusted) ..... or what they have "heard" .....

In reviewing the who's who of the above commenters it appears that these are the usual suspects .... the very same people who claim to be for freedom and rights of the individual .... and probably believe in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, as enumerated in the Constitution .... as well as claiming to be moral and God-fearing (even to the point for some of regularly invoking the name of the Deity, to spice up their posts - a rather trivial use of one's religion to be sure)

But let one individual just be a little too far out of "the norm" and you have this utter disgust - indeed, an almost insane reaction - jumping to conclusions about his conduct based no doubt, largely on what is reported in the media ... and rest assured - accepting that as truth is a form of celebrity worship (or just very poor judgement) .... whether they might be willing to admit it or not.

I wouldn't be too surprised if numerous people step forward now to expose his transgressions. Hush money dies with the devil.
Well, you just keep all us updated on this ..... tell about all the numerous people who "step forward" now that he's passed ..... no doubt all of these folks who do so, will be motivated by the most sterling of motives, and there will be no trolling for book or movie deals, no "tell-all's", or lawsuits against the Jackson estate involved ....
 

inkasnana

Expert Expediter
Inkasnana... I made no personal comments about you. Nor would I. You're trying to deflect the conversation away from Michael Jackson and make it about yourself. You cannot superimpose your granmotherly motives and intentions toward children onto Michael Jackson. He had a long history of unscrupulous behavior with young boys. Why anyone would want to defend a 45 year-old man taking young boys into his bed is a mystery to me. This thread is about Michael Jackson. Let's keep it there.

No, I am not trying to turn this around and make it about me. You said... "It's a big-time NO-NO under all conditions. Every psychologist and psychiatrist I've heard speak on this topic says the adult-child sleeping arrangement is fraught with danger for the child." That statement would therefore apply to the scenario I spoke of.

Now speaking of the supposed "long history of unscrupulous behavior with young boys" that you speak of, where are you getting that information from? Who are the accusers? What were the charges? Where are the court records showing proof of guilt? Or are you just judging by way of hearsay, rumor and gossip?
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Thank you for those kind words, Randy. Your affinity for Michael Jackson is duly noted. I hope you're not driving in your current state. Be safe.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ahhh ..... lemme see ..... how about this:

Because under our system of jurisprudence, a person is to be considered innocent, until proven guilty ....

There is a reason why that principal came about, and became part of our legal heritage - largely because it was deemed, that in a free society, where honest folks have rights (or ought to), that erring on the side of protecting the truly innocent by not convicting them of crimes they did not commit, vastly outweighs the benefits of convicting the truly guilty, at the expense of the innocent:

What damage is done to a man, who, having done nothing wrong, has his life taken away ?

In case anyone misses the point above, I am not speaking of ones physical life, but the Life one creates themselves. And you can be absolutely be certain that Michael Jackson, had his life, taken away .... his first life as a child, by his father, at a young age .... and then the one he managed to create for himself, by a couple of sick, degraded individuals that would apparently stoop to any level for money.

I'm curious aristotle about a couple of things .... No. 1 - are you an ex-LEO ? .... and No. 2 - did you even bother to read the article (one which was apparently done by someone who still has an inkling what the words investigative journalism mean) that Inks's nana linked ? ...... a blatant conspiracy if ever there was one .... to extort money from someone .... whose only real crime may have been that although a little eccentric, he probably was a nice guy, and never really grew up.

No credible evidence whatsoever:

"And what became of the massive investigation of Jackson? After millions of dollars were spent by prosecutors and police departments in two jurisdictions, and after two grand juries questioned close to 200 witnesses, including 30 children who knew Jackson, not a single corroborating witness could be found."

"The sole allegations leveled against Jackson, then, remain those made by one youth, and only after the boy had been give a potent hypnotic drug, leaving him susceptible to the power of suggestion."

Just the accusations from a single kid who, in addition to the above, was under the influence of a father who was apparently repeatedly tape-recorded stating that he was out to "get" Jackson (for money of course) and ruin him, represented by a lawyer who gives new meaning to the words "scum-sucking bottom-dweller" .....

Those two jokers oughta fry ..... if not in the here and now, then certainly in the hereafter.

If you want an actual "something" to be all incensed, upset, and revolted by, then try the fact that neither of those two scum ever had charges leveled at them .... where's your sense of moral outrage on that one ? Both at the individuals themselves who perpetrated the act, and the individuals who are part of the criminal-justice system (and at times, it is truly "criminal") that failed to obtain justice.


Bull****.

Please, please, please tell us all what exactly that evidence is .... illuminate for us some of this "evidence" (circumstantial or otherwise) .... and show us it isn't just mere accusations (apparently almost all of which apparently come from folks who have, or potentially have, something to gain, in a financial sense)

In case the fact has escaped you, a mere accusation isn't proof of anything. If it were, our prisons would likely be over-crowded by the recently divorced.


And please tell me you don't stand ready and willing to convict someone on a single accusation, with no supporting evidence or corroboration - simply because you find the crime being accused so horrific ... (the old "better-to-lock-'em-up-cause-we-know-that-everybody-is-guilty-of-something" cop mentality ...)


Truth is, Michael Jackson is a very dead man.


I'll have to admit, I wasn't particularly a fan, nor a follower of Michael Jackson, although I did admire some of his work .... I'm not familiar with his ability to lie (apparently you are - perhaps you will enlighten us all ?)

I know enough of him to know one thing for sure, and one thing only: He was an incredibly talented individual. I know that by personal observation .... anything beyond that would be mere speculation.

As in the case with many artists and other talented individuals, the guy was perhaps a bit eccentric .....

Possibly the most ironic thing about this conversation so far, is the way that a number of people on here have commented against Michael Jackson - indeed with utter disgust and revulsion - none of them with any close personal observation, or actual knowledge of the facts - I'd guess that their "knowledge" is largely derived from the news media (which, in another breath, they would tell you isn't to be trusted) ..... or what they have "heard" .....

In reviewing the who's who of the above commenters it appears that these are the usual suspects .... the very same people who claim to be for freedom and rights of the individual .... and probably believe in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, as enumerated in the Constitution .... as well as claiming to be moral and God-fearing (even to the point for some of regularly invoking the name of the Deity, to spice up their posts - a rather trivial use of one's religion to be sure)

But let one individual just be a little too far out of "the norm" and you have this utter disgust - indeed, an almost insane reaction - jumping to conclusions about his conduct based no doubt, largely on what is reported in the media ... and rest assured - accepting that as truth is a form of celebrity worship (or just very poor judgement) .... whether they might be willing to admit it or not.


Well, you just keep all us updated on this ..... tell about all the numerous people who "step forward" now that he's passed ..... no doubt all of these folks who do so, will be motivated by the most sterling of motives, and there will be no trolling for book or movie deals, no "tell-all's", or lawsuits against the Jackson estate involved ....


It amazes me that NOW so many in here are going on about innocence before guilt, an idea that I STRONGLY believe in. When it is brought up about un-warrented drug testing, drug testing without cause or illegal backround check when people try to buy a gun I do not see the passion for innocense before guilt. Just observing. I cannot say I know much of ANYTHING about MH and don't really care. He was, when he was alive, entitled to the same RIGHTS as the 80 million LEGAL gun owners are denied. The same RIGHT to belief of innocence that truckers, airline pilots etc are denied. The same rights that are deined to ANYONE seeking a job that requires a drug test to hire. Those all ASSUME guilt or they would not test. Either we ALL have rights or no one will. Try to keep that in mind.
 
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