Occupy Wall Street?

[cheri1122]

We had one of those "Wall Street" dudes in our truck last week. Mildly pleasant, not much life experience. We asked him what he and his wife were protesting. The answer, predictable, "Corporate Greed". Asked him what that meant, no answer. Asked him what is plan was if "Wall Street" went away, no idea, just make it go away. was his answer. Asked him if he had a better system in mind than what we have, NOPE. No idea.

None of that surprised me. It is what I expected. If you don't have a possible solution, shut up and try to learn something. I cannot imagine a man in his 30's, with children, being that blank.
He had NO real idea what he was against, or why. He had NO idea how to fix it. He had NO idea what he would want instead of what we have. Pretty sad for a man of his age and education level.

If one forms opinions on the one encounter, [and there is no way of knowing what else contributed to his lack of ideas - perhaps some drugs, prescribed or illicit?] that would be even sadder. It'd be like picking up a person thumbing a ride after Woodstock, who identifies himself as a psychologist, explaining his attendance as an observation of crowd dynamics, and concluding the concert was held for that purpose.
It's always a mistake to form broad assumptions from narrow material.

 

[greg334]

That's too funny, "don't steal from medicare to support socialized medicine"

What do they think medicare is, capitalism type medicine?

Just wondering, can someone size that photo so some of us can read the posts?

 

[Turtle]

The use of "you" and "your" and all the related personal attacks through subtle and not-so subtle implication is out of control in this thread. Stop it. Discuss the issues, or don't discuss it at all. If you cannot figure out what the issues are, here's a hint: what may or may not have sailed over anyone's head is not one of the issues.

 

[layoutshooter]

We had one of those "Wall Street" dudes in our truck last week. Mildly pleasant, not much life experience. We asked him what he and his wife were protesting. The answer, predictable, "Corporate Greed". Asked him what that meant, no answer. Asked him what is plan was if "Wall Street" went away, no idea, just make it go away. was his answer. Asked him if he had a better system in mind than what we have, NOPE. No idea.

None of that surprised me. It is what I expected. If you don't have a possible solution, shut up and try to learn something. I cannot imagine a man in his 30's, with children, being that blank.
He had NO real idea what he was against, or why. He had NO idea how to fix it. He had NO idea what he would want instead of what we have. Pretty sad for a man of his age and education level.

If you form your opinions on the one encounter, [and you have no way of knowing what else contributed to his lack of ideas - perhaps some drugs, prescribed or illicit?] that would be even sadder. It'd be like picking up a person thumbing a ride after Woodstock, who identifies himself as a psychologist, explaining his attendance as an observation of crowd dynamics - would you then conclude that the concert was staged primarily for the benefit of psychologists?
It's always a mistake to form broad assumptions from narrow material.

To form one's opinion from what one reads in our media makes about as much sense too. Where does one form opinion from? The news is not reliable. Weak reporting at BEST. Most or all "news" (entertainment) outlets are biased in one way or another. Personal encounters are too narrow.

He just reminded me of so many others like him I have met. No real ideas. They believed what they were taught in school, questioned nothing. Pretty sad, this guy had a masters. He asked if I was in Vietnam or Korea, (I don't look THAT old). When I said that I fought the "Cold War" he had NO idea what the "Cold War" was. He had never heard of it. Either went to a REALLY bad high school or never bothered to learn history. Great for a voter.

 

[chefdennis]

cheri wrote:

If the concept of fair is socialist, then America was founded on socialist principles, because the writers of the Constitution put their blood, sweat, and tears into making it FAIR: no one gets to cheat or abuse or harm anyone simply because they can.

Who decides whats "fair"??? Who decides what or how much is "too much"???

As for how our Founding Fathers looked at "sharing the wealth" and the Government taking ones Wealth...:

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

“To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” Furthermore, “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”

What “is” a government that infringes on our pursuits. Jefferson says this, ” I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.”

Seems Mr. Jefferson was all about one keeping what one made from their own labor...

 

[RLENT]

That's too funny, "don't steal from medicare to support socialized medicine"

What do they think medicare is, capitalism type medicine?

I'm tellin' ya .... ya just can't make it up ....

Just wondering, can someone size that photo so some of us can read the posts?

Sorry about that - I'll try and figure it out.

Which photo is it ?

 

[greg334]

Either the one in post 54 or 56, can't tell which one.

 

[RLENT]

Wow, you would think people would know you by now RLENT.

You would think ....

Unfortunately, some folks apparently have no ability to "think outside the box" ..... so when they run across something that doesnt fit their own preconceived notions they just can't "grok" it ..... they are so solidly fixed into their own viewpoint they can't even conceive that any other may exist, let alone be valid ....

Ahh well .... such is life ...

 

[Ragman]

You would think ....

Unfortunately, some folks apparently have no ability to "think outside the box" ..... so when they run across something that doesnt fit their own preconceived notions they just can't "grok" it ..... they are so solidly fixed into their own viewpoint they can't even conceive that any other may exist, let alone be valid ....

Ahh well .... such is life ...

 

[cheri1122]

cheri wrote:




Who decides whats "fair"??? Who decides what or how much is "too much"???

Someone who is more objective than the 'compensation committees' currently allowing the favored few to set their own compensation, as they clearly have a pretty inflated belief in their own worth.

As for how our Founding Fathers looked at "sharing the wealth" and the Government taking ones Wealth...:

Thomas Jefferson wrote:



Seems Mr. Jefferson was all about one keeping what one made from their own labor...

So am I - I work for a living, too.
But just as our justice system forbids a criminal to profit from his crime, those people [and corporations] who profit by cheating, lying, misleading, manipulating, and corrupting the rules cannot be said to have 'earned' the money.
Thomas Jefferson would be no more in favor of corporate dishonesty than personal sloth, IMO, as neither contributes to a productive society.

 

[layoutshooter]

Our government has NOT proven itself to be honest. Why should we think that they can regulate private industry? They are as or more corrupt than those they pretend to control. Government will never, in it;s present form, solve this problem. They will only continue to make it worse and WE are gong to pay for it.

 

[chefdennis]

Well since by rule, any corporation listed on the NYSE will have a "Compensation Committees" that is made up of "Independent Board Members" and in alot of situations a "Risk Manager"....

So with that in mind, can you point out the laws that these committees are breaking when they make there decisions on how much money a CEO makes??? Most often they are based on "peer groups" incomes...yea they can be and in alot of cases more then the peers within the group, but then again, thats how you get and keep the people you want, you pay them better then the next guy....

And as for Mr Jefferson not being in favor of "corporate dishonesty or personal sloth"...i am sure that is true...but he also by the words he wrote wouldn't be in favor of "wealth redistribution"....you know, socialism...taking from the rich to give to the less fortunate....unless the rich give it themselves...

 

[RLENT]

Dennis,

I posted these quotes once before in some thread - maybe this one - they are applicable in the situation we currently find ourselves in:

"Often the masses are plundered and do not know it."

"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim - when he defends himself - as a criminal."

They are by Claude Frédéric Bastiat - who certainly was no socialist - and who is considered by some economists to be the forerunner to the Austrian School of Economics.

Economist Murray Rothbard described him thusly: "Bastiat was indeed a lucid and superb writer, whose brilliant and witty essays and fables to this day are remarkable and devastating demolitions of protectionism and of all forms of government subsidy and control. He was a truly scintillating advocate of an untrammeled free market."

From Bastiat's Wikipedia page:

"In [his book] The Law, Bastiat explains that if the privileged classes use the government for "legalized plunder" this will encourage the lower classes to revolt or use socialist "legalized plunder" and that the correct response to both the socialists and the corporatists is to cease all "legalized plunder".

Bastiat also explains why his position is that the law cannot defend life, liberty and property if it promotes socialist policies. When used to obtain "legalized plunder" for any group, he says, the law is perverted and turned against the thing it is supposed to defend."

After much plunder by the "privileged classes" and considerably less (IMHO) by the "lower classes" what one is now seeing - in both the Tea Party and OWS - is just the inevitable reaction .... by the 99%.

 

[RLENT]

I think you missed the point, Pilgrim. The photos were hand picked to portray a specific agenda - one that isn't necessarily representative of the whole [aka selective editing.] Both 'sides' can do it, and keep doing it, ad nauseum, but it doesn't prove anything, or advance any understanding.

Peanut m'dear - you get it - unfortunately, I'm afraid our friend from Plymouth doesn't ..... yet.

I do however hope that he will ... eventually ....

My initial post in response to him was intended to illustrate that just as there is some lunacy on both sides, there might well be some wisdom or insights on both sides .... and legitimate grievances.

And as far as the protesters being radical left wingers, that isn't what I read - they are mostly middle of the road people of both parties [the protest is specifically neither Democrat or Republican, left or right] and that's WHY they refer to themselves as the 99%.

Careful there - this insightful observation of yours doesn't fit into the simplistic assessment that lends itself to a 15 second soundbite that the Mainstream Media seems to prefer.

One has to "think outside the box" and be willing to consider that there might be an alternative narrative that exists, other than what one is being told ...... by media which is largely owned by monied interests, or those with a particular political agenda ....

They don't advocate socialism, just a system that isn't rigged in favor of the 1% [wealthiest], and an end to the condoning of greed that has left us in the sorry state we're in relative to unemployment and government's financial crises.

On the whole I think that is likely to be fairly accurate ..... I'm sure some of them - certain individuals - do (advocate socialism) ..... and Lord knows what else ....

You name it .... there are humans involved ... so there's no telling what some might advocate. Same goes for the Tea Party ....

These things (TP and OWS) have a way of bringing out all sorts of folks to the party .....

 

[RLENT]

Seems Mr. Jefferson was all about one keeping what one made from their own labor...

Where did he stand on the extraction of wealth from the labor of others ?

 

[tbubster]

Its funny how when people talk about the founding fathers and what they intended and ment with the constitution they fail to relize that even then there were in fact those that had money and then there was the poor.And yet they still formed this country to be based in catipalism.

Layout hit the nail on the head.Here these protesters are crying about how the big companys own washington and how they have beenable to become what they have buy paying off those in washington.So what do they want to do????Turn it all over to washington to run.Yep sounds like a plan to me

No as far as nowing what the protesters say they are really about.Just go to their website.However be for warned you will not see any of the videos that make them look bad.As this would not serve their agenda.Now one could always go to youtube and type in wall street protest and see over 12,000 videos.You can find many that make them look smart and you can find many that show a great many of them for what they are really about you decide what you want to watch.No one can say the great great great many videos showing them for what they are does not matter.Well it does because it is part of the so called revolution.

This guy is part of the revolution that some think is good.

Occupy Wall Street Displays Underlying Racism / Antisemitism Agenda - YouTube

 

[chefdennis]

Well i guess that those that want to continue to whine about not having while others have will always e whining and thats what you get when they depend on others to "carry" them....I simply don't care who makes what other then me..and i have done just fine income wise for most of my adult life....chances are i have lost money in business investments then most of those whating to "level the field have made"...of well thats the way it goes...dust youself off and find another way to make it happen...or demand that the gov and big corps bail you out...

Personally id love to see just half of these "greed nasty corporations close their door for good and move every single job out of the country and see just what these people will demand then...more from the gov would be my guess....

If those in NYC just stood back and looked at the jobs that those banks and investment firms and big corps that are based there have borught to just that city, just maybe they would get a clue....but the chance of that are slim since they want what they want for FREE...i seen a link last night, the guy felt everyone is entitled to a "free education" with no limit as to how far it should be paid for by others...if one wants to be a Dr., no problem all of the education should be paid for by others...

And as for Mr. Jeffersons profits off of "others" labor....so what? Think how much more the greed corporations could make if slavery was still legal.....

Oh and yes the system in alot of ways is "rigged" so that people can make profits at the cost of others...I figured that out long ago...the key is to use it to your advantage at whatever level you can...figure out where you can manipulate the system to best work for you and go for it....it is legal ....
But some would rather whine then figure it out...its easier to have someone else hold your hand and take care of you....

No one that i know of is saying that there is no corruption in business and our governement, but if anyone thinks this "Occupy___ (fill in the blank) bs and lean towards socialism is going to change anything...lol yea well...I'll follow suit and i have a great new invention to sell you at a bargain price...LOL...so, yea while as Turtle stated (to parphase), we all are little sheep going along within their system, the key is to step out of line, make the system work for you, yea, you have to work within the frame work they have for the most part, but even those that have the control applaud those that set out and make it on their own, it might not be the the degree of the "Big Boys", but there certainly are those of us that do quite well for our selves, just like anyone who whats to risk can....

Oh and how long do you really think that these "occupy whatever city or place" people would be around without the UNIONS, Move on .Org, George soros , Acorn, Bee & Jerrys, and other left leaning groups and even the DNC barry and nasty nancy backing them with bodies, food and money, idealogy and even verbal support???

Personally i am waiting for the violence to start...and it will..

The PJ Tatler » Occupy L.A. Speaker: Violence will be Necessary to Achieve Our Goals

Please please please go there....

 

[Pilgrim]

I think you missed the point, Pilgrim. The photos were hand picked to portray a specific agenda - one that isn't necessarily representative of the whole [aka selective editing.] Both 'sides' can do it, and keep doing it, ad nauseum, but it doesn't prove anything, or advance any understanding.
And as far as the protesters being radical left wingers, that isn't what I read - they are mostly middle of the road people of both parties [the protest is specifically neither Democrat or Republican, left or right] and that's WHY they refer to themselves as the 99%.
They don't advocate socialism, just a system that isn't rigged in favor of the 1% [wealthiest], and an end to the condoning of greed that has left us in the sorry state we're in relative to unemployment and government's financial crises.

No - I didn't miss the point, but perhaps I could have been clearer in making my point which was directed toward the particular Occupy Wall St. groups - which were considerable in size, as confirmed by the pictures - that were demonstrating as advocates of socialism, free education, free health care (as evidenced by their signs), and a govt nanny state in general. This faction makes up a significant percentage of the Occupy Wall St protesters, and the press coverage reflects this.

Now on the other hand, there are plenty of legitimate problems with the residents of Wall St that have yet to be addressed by our legislators in spite of the recent financial meltdown. Without going into all the gory details, I suggest those that are interested should read Reckless Endangerment by Gretchen Morganstern and Joshua Rosner. They do a great job of detailing how the whole mess came to be, and the blame goes to not only Wall St, but also Congress, the financial rating agencies (like S&P), several subprime mortgage lenders (like Countrywide), and of course the Fed. They describe a degree of corruption and incompetence that permeates these institutions that will take your breath away.

All these protesters would do well to educate themselves by reading books like this before setting foot in the streets.

 

[cheri1122]

No - I didn't miss the point, but perhaps I could have been clearer in making my point which was directed toward the particular Occupy Wall St. groups - which were considerable in size, as confirmed by the pictures - that were demonstrating as advocates of socialism, free education, free health care (as evidenced by their signs), and a govt nanny state in general. This faction makes up a significant percentage of the Occupy Wall St protesters, and the press coverage reflects this.

As the point was that the 'press coverage' is almost exclusively the MSM, I think you're still missing the point: it will show what it [corporate media on both sides of the political divide] wants you to see, and report on what it wants you to know.

Now on the other hand, there are plenty of legitimate problems with the residents of Wall St that have yet to be addressed by our legislators in spite of the recent financial meltdown. Without going into all the gory details, I suggest those that are interested should read Reckless Endangerment by Gretchen Morganstern and Joshua Rosner. They do a great job of detailing how the whole mess came to be, and the blame goes to not only Wall St, but also Congress, the financial rating agencies (like S&P), several subprime mortgage lenders (like Countrywide), and of course the Fed. They describe a degree of corruption and incompetence that permeates these institutions that will take your breath away.

All these protesters would do well to educate themselves by reading books like this before setting foot in the streets.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that a great many of them have - after all, you have, and we are a pretty good cross section of the American public, if you disregard the fact that we all have a steady income that doesn't depend on a corporate decision, lol. The blaming of 'Wall Street' may be just expedient - it would be pretty tiresome [not to mention impractical] to list all the guilty parties, for sure.
I haven't read those books [ I doubt they'd much surprise me, though] so I have added them to my BOLO list - thank you for contributing that to the discussion.

 

[cheri1122]

Ooops - just one book, two authors. Anyone have any other suggestions that would add some enlightenment?
I've read nothing [bookwise] on this particular subject, but I've seen enough to convince me that corruption and chicanery is the major motif of Wall Street already - it's not hard to spot between the lines of even the MSM view.
Capitalism is what we want, it's unrestrained greed [abetted by the very agents meant to prevent it] that we have a problem with, because it's had an extremely negative effect on our country and our lives. It may not even help many of us, but we have children and grands to think of...