At least she's not on the jury...

[paullud]

P: can you cite the evidence that shows "Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman"? Because if there were any, Z wouldn't have been arrested. Martin definitely 'confronted' Zimmerman, asking why he was following, [or, if you accept Z's version, whether Z had a problem], but Martin had every right to confront someone who was following him and ask why. Zimmerman admits that he denied it when confronted, but after that, we don't know how it escalated.

If you remember Zimmerman wasn't arrested based on the evidence, he was cuffed, interrogated, and released based on the evidence. He was however later arrested based on lies and racist people going after him. Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was waiting for the police officer to show up. http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

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[cheri1122]

If you remember Zimmerman wasn't arrested based on the evidence, he was cuffed, interrogated, and released based on the evidence.

He was released [in spite of the investigating Det's recommendation that he be charged] after the Prosecutor said to release him. The Prosecutor may have been influenced by misinformation [Zimmerman told them he had no criminal record, which was a lie, but they hadn't discovered it yet] and/or the fact that Zimmerman's father was a retired magistrate, or maybe was just wrong. It happens. Did you know that a year or so before, a teenage son of a police officer was let go without being charged for assaulting [without provocation] a homeless person? Only when a video of the attack appeared did the Prosecutor reverse the decision, under public pressure. There's more that factors into the decision than apparent guilt or innocence.

He was however later arrested based on lies and racist people going after him. Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was waiting for the police officer to show up. Transcript of George Zimmerman's Call to the Police

Again: Zimmerman says that's what happened, but his credibility is suspect, to say the least.

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[cheri1122]

Nope, not interested.


Then why must you interject a comment?

I don't trust the news or the police department. No reason to. The news has zero credibility and the police can cover up anything, or nothing, as they please, to serve their own purpose.

I would really hate to sit on a jury these days. Between the irresponsibility of the press and the out of control government, including many police departments, I would have a LOT of trouble in a court room.

I can wholeheartedly agree with that last statement, at least.

 

[layoutshooter]

I can wholeheartedly agree with that last statement, at least.

Of course. I would expect nothing else.

I stated an honest thought. I don't trust the government, I have no reason too. I don't trust the news outlets, I have not reason too. How could I go in and honestly say that I could, without bias, come to a verdict when I have no trust for the system?

I have been in court, to testify, once. I was called as a rebuttal witness in an accident case. The State of PA was lying, attempting to deny the facts of the case in which a woman was badly injured, in part due to the State not taking care of known road defects.

I saw the "system" at work. Don't trust it. Don't trust the government that runs the courts. Don't trust those who passed the laws and I don't trust the police departments that enforce them.

Would it be better for me to lie and say I could?

 

[paullud]

Again: Zimmerman says that's what happened, but his credibility is suspect, to say the least.

You can read it in the transcript or listen to the call and see it lines up.

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[cheri1122]

Of course. I would expect nothing else.

I stated an honest thought. I don't trust the government, I have no reason too. I don't trust the news outlets, I have not reason too. How could I go in and honestly say that I could, without bias, come to a verdict when I have no trust for the system?

I have been in court, to testify, once. I was called as a rebuttal witness in an accident case. The State of PA was lying, attempting to deny the facts of the case in which a woman was badly injured, in part due to the State not taking care of known road defects.

I saw the "system" at work. Don't trust it. Don't trust the government that runs the courts. Don't trust those who passed the laws and I don't trust the police departments that enforce them.

Would it be better for me to lie and say I could?

I didn't question your honesty, just your reason for interjecting a comment in a thread in which you have no interest. Especially when it's a comment you've made so many times before that it goes without saying.
Or, it should.

 

[cheri1122]

You can read it in the transcript or listen to the call and see it lines up.

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We can't really see anything when listening or reading a transcript, it's open to interpretation. If you believe Zimmerman is truthful, that's your opinion, but I disagree. I think he lied about who instigated the fight. That's my opinion, which I've backed up with numerous instances of his misrepresenting the facts.

 

[Turtle]

He claimed he was part of it because he wanted to feel like an important person but the fact is he was not associated with NW. I have no doubt in my mind Zimmerman is an annoying wannabe cop that just wasn't able to make it. I have no doubt he was following Martin and that Martin became concerned because some stupid idiot was following him.

Human nature being what it is, that's the most likely scenario.

Also, keep in mind that "concerned" could also just as easily be "afraid for his life."

The problem comes from the fact that the evidence shows Martin then confronted and attacked Zimmerman. This gave Zimmerman the right to defend himself as he saw fit which in this case cost a young person their life.

I'm not sure what evidence you are talking about, but there is telephone recorded evidence that Zimmerman left his truck to pursue Martin before there was any confrontation. While in his vehicle on a personal errand (said he was heading to the grocery store), Zimmerman noticed Martin walking inside the community. Zimmerman called the Sanford Police Department to report Martin's behavior as suspicious, stating "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about" and "looking at all the houses". According to a police report, "there is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter". While still on the phone with the police dispatcher, Zimmerman left his vehicle.

As far as evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman...
The Volusia County medical examiner found that Martin was killed by an injury resulting from a single gunshot to the chest, fired at "intermediate range," between 1 and 18 inches according to a forensic expert. An analysis of Martin's body and clothes described the distance as "a contact shot". The autopsy also found that Martin had one small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle. No other injuries were found on Martin's body at the time of his death.

The autopsy report stated that Martin had trace levels of THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, in his blood and urine, but the THC amount was so low that it may have been ingested days earlier and played no role in Martin's behavior.

Martin obviously had a cell phone with which he should have called the cops for help if he thought Zimmerman was a problem. Instead Martin, being full of testosterone and the tough guy mentality decided to handle it his way.

There's really no evidence at all of that conclusion. Zimmerman's call to the Sanford Police ended at 7:13:41, and at 7:16:11 (2 minutes 30 seconds after the call ended) was the first 911 call from a witness about a fight, and calls for help are heard on that recording. 44 seconds after that, at 7:16:55, a gunshot was heard on the 911 call. A little over three minutes from the end of Zimmnerman's call to police to the gunshot.

Who do you think was up to no good and out looking for trouble... the kid who was walking back to his future step-mother's house (where he and his father had been visiting from Miami for the past 7 days) from the convenience store after buying a pack of Skittles and a can of Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail, or the armed, self-appointed captain of the Neighborhood Watch with 40 suspicious person-type phone calls to the police in recent months, and frustrated cop-wannabe, who claims he was just out heading to the grocery store?


Here's the full transcript of Zimmerman's phone call to the Sanford Police Department's non-emergency number:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: Okay.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens. Okay.
Zimmerman: Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything, okay?
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah, we've got someone on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These a**holes, they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. sh**, he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance...f***ing ____ [disputed/unintelligible - either "coons" or "punks"]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.
Dispatcher: All right, sir, what is your name?
Zimmerman: George...He ran.
Dispatcher: All right, George, what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman.
Dispatcher: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: [redacted]
Dispatcher: All right, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman:: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don't know. It's a cut through so I don't know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay. Do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What's your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It's a home. It's 1950... Oh, crap. I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay. Do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
Zimmerman: Yeah, that's fine.
Dispatcher: All right, George. I'll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah. That's no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah, I got it [phone number redacted]
Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay. No problem. I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You're welcome.

 

[paullud]

We can't really see anything when listening or reading a transcript, it's open to interpretation. If you believe Zimmerman is truthful, that's your opinion, but I disagree. I think he lied about who instigated the fight. That's my opinion, which I've backed up with numerous instances of his misrepresenting the facts.

You can hear what is going on when you listen to the call as well, that is plain as day. People lie, especially people that are in fear so I don't doubt Zimmerman lied. He probably thought he was screwed and didn't have knowledge of the law that would have kept him from being charged. If you want to use what a person has done in the past along with evidence of things that just seem odd then don't forget Martin's past history of violence and breaking into things. Then of course there is the fact thst the burglaries seemed to stop suddenly once Martin wasn't around.

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[layoutshooter]

I didn't question your honesty, just your reason for interjecting a comment in a thread in which you have no interest. Especially when it's a comment you've made so many times before that it goes without saying.
Or, it should.

I did not say I had no interest in the thread, I said I had no interest in reading documents or looking at pictures that are easily altered. I have that little trust in the system or those who run it.

I don't believe that Z has any chance at a "fair trail" and that there is little chance that justice will be served, no matter which side one may believe is right.

The entire case is a tragedy and that tragedy continues.

 

[cheri1122]

You can hear what is going on when you listen to the call as well, that is plain as day. People lie, especially people that are in fear so I don't doubt Zimmerman lied. He probably thought he was screwed and didn't have knowledge of the law that would have kept him from being charged. If you want to use what a person has done in the past along with evidence of things that just seem odd then don't forget Martin's past history of violence and breaking into things. Then of course there is the fact thst the burglaries seemed to stop suddenly once Martin wasn't around.

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This is hilarious: Zimmerman "didn't have knowledge of the law"? What do you suppose he was learning in his classes for Criminal Justice - how to be a cook? Even if he was failing most classes [which he was], you can be sure that when the subject was protecting yourself from the law, he paid attention - that mattered to him.
As Turtle & I have both pointed out, evidence of past behavior isn't relevant unless it applies to what happened that night: violent confrontations against people counts, other things, not so much. Zimmerman has a documented history of violence towards people, Martin does not. Breaking into things? There's zero reason to believe he has ever done so, much less on the night he died. [What burglaries?!] Just like a rape trial, the defense would like to suggest the victim 'deserved' it, but the law doesn't allow that.

Now, I have to say that I believe the jury will find Zimmerman not guilty, and that's probably the just outcome. He's a misguided man with poor decisionmaking skills, but I believe he is genuinely remorseful, and there's no reason to put him in prison. He seems to have learned that even a choice like suspecting people of wrongdoing can have serious negative consequences.

 

[paullud]

This is hilarious: Zimmerman "didn't have knowledge of the law"? What do you suppose he was learning in his classes for Criminal Justice - how to be a cook? Even if he was failing most classes [which he was], you can be sure that when the subject was protecting yourself from the law, he paid attention - that mattered to him.
As Turtle & I have both pointed out, evidence of past behavior isn't relevant unless it applies to what happened that night: violent confrontations against people counts, other things, not so much. Zimmerman has a documented history of violence towards people, Martin does not. Breaking into things? There's zero reason to believe he has ever done so, much less on the night he died. [What burglaries?!] Just like a rape trial, the defense would like to suggest the victim 'deserved' it, but the law doesn't allow that.

Now, I have to say that I believe the jury will find Zimmerman not guilty, and that's probably the just outcome. He's a misguided man with poor decisionmaking skills, but I believe he is genuinely remorseful, and there's no reason to put him in prison. He seems to have learned that even a choice like suspecting people of wrongdoing can have serious negative consequences.

Martin absolutely had issues with violent confrontations, you may want to look into it. Martin also had a history of breaking into things and stealing which might have set him off if he was worried about getting caught. I'm not sure how you missed that information but you should look at why he was at his father's home instead of his mother's where he goes to school.

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[EASYTRADER]

I think we can all take away from this case what a bad idea it is to punch somebody in the face and slamm their head in the ground repeatedly because they just might be armed.

Anyway I think Zimmerman is going to get railroaded, and its a travesty. There is absoluty no reason to believe this situation is anything more than zimmerman sais it is.

 

[cheri1122]

Martin absolutely had issues with violent confrontations, you may want to look into it. Martin also had a history of breaking into things and stealing which might have set him off if he was worried about getting caught. I'm not sure how you missed that information but you should look at why he was at his father's home instead of his mother's where he goes to school.

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So I looked into it a bit more, and it seems Martin's history of "breaking into things and stealing" consists of one incident where the school searched his backpack [looking for a marker after someone wrote "WTF" on a door] and found some women's jewelry & a screwdriver. The jewelry was given to Martin by a friend - the school turned it over to police, and it was never claimed, identified, or traced to any burglary. The screwdriver was called a 'burglary tool', which is just ludicrous, ok?
I found absolutely nothing concerning Martin's "issues with violent confrontations", so please enlighten us: what do you know about it?
I know he was at his father's because he was suspended from school for the baggie with traces of marijuana. Big deal - if that's the worst crime he committed, [and it seems to be], he was more like a typical high school student than even a thug wannabe.
I also found the transcript for Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity, and that was really interesting: he repeats the original claim that Martin "tried to suffocate" him, and insists that Martin "punched him more than a dozen times".

Yeah, right.

 

[Turtle]

Anyway I think Zimmerman is going to get railroaded, and its a travesty. There is absoluty no reason to believe this situation is anything more than zimmerman sais it is.

There absolutely is. He has a history of more than 40 phone calls to the police in which nearly every one of them overstated the gravity of the reality of the situation and has shown him as someone to see "suspicious activity" where none whatsoever exists.

As an example, he called to report a "suspicious looking man" wearing pajamas wandering around outside a house early in the morning, and has seen him doing exhibiting that same behavior on several "trash days." The implication was the man was wandering around the neighborhood rummaging though people's trash cans. The reality is, the man was taking his garbage out to the curb for pickup on trash day.

 

[xiggi]

So I looked into it a bit more, and it seems Martin's history of "breaking into things and stealing" consists of one incident where the school searched his backpack [looking for a marker after someone wrote "WTF" on a door] and found some women's jewelry & a screwdriver. The jewelry was given to Martin by a friend - the school turned it over to police, and it was never claimed, identified, or traced to any burglary. The screwdriver was called a 'burglary tool', which is just ludicrous, ok?
I found absolutely nothing concerning Martin's "issues with violent confrontations", so please enlighten us: what do you know about it?
I know he was at his father's because he was suspended from school for the baggie with traces of marijuana. Big deal - if that's the worst crime he committed, [and it seems to be], he was more like a typical high school student than even a thug wannabe.
I also found the transcript for Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity, and that was really interesting: he repeats the original claim that Martin "tried to suffocate" him, and insists that Martin "punched him more than a dozen times".

Yeah, right.

Cherri there sure is a theme to your posts. Find any reason to excuse anything done on the martin side of the case. Then on the Zimmerman side exaggerate claims and state them as absolutes until called out on it.

A screwdriver and jewelry together is a common thing pointing to theft. So are you telling us he was simply hiding items of his friends from a theft?



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[Turtle]

Uh, oh. I've got a screwdriver and a watch. Am I in trouble?

 

[xiggi]

No your probably building a flux capacitor. I don't however think I said it made him guilty just pointing out how cherri looks difrently at the two parties.

I personally think both made bad decisions and that led to a very sad outcome.

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[Turtle]

I personally think both made bad decisions and that led to a very sad outcome.

I agree.

I think Mrs. Kravitz-Zimmerman got a little too nosy, saw "suspicious" where it didn't exist, escalated an "observe and report" situation into a situation where he then confronted Martin, and then Martin overreacted in typical combative teenager fashion, resulting in tragedy. I do think Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense, not murder, but I think the self-defense situation was created by Zimmerman himself when he went beyond the scope "observe and report" and took it to "pursue and intimidate," even if the "intimidate" was only in the mind of Martin.

 

[xiggi]

I agree except my feeling is in that teenager fashion martin returned and confronted him. Very possibly as zimerman was standing a distance away staring him down almost daring him.

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