At least she's not on the jury...

[paullud]

A question that bothers me: if Martin punched Zimmerman hard enough to break his nose, why was Martin's hand not showing any evidence of swelling? Even if there were only a few minutes between the punch & his death, swelling would have begun, but the medical examiner did not see any sign of it.

Just the facts.

If you want "Just the facts" then stop using lies you got from people that make up their own evidence. Your claim that you researched information is not looking good, it smacks of someone that read something on a website and took it as gospel.

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1079190

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=general&catid=57436083&feed_id=999&videofeed=999

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[cheri1122]

Well, I admit I read something on a website and took it as gospel, but that's generally accepted - when it's the actual autopsy report.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

As you can see by reading it yourself, except for the gunshot, the only other injury noted on Martin's body was one "small, 1/4 x 1/4 abrasion on 4th finger".
No swelling, bruising, or [gasp!] "bloody knuckles".
When you really, really want to know the facts, that's how it's done: take the time to find the source. Those are the facts that will be used in a court of law.

 

[xiggi]

And the fact remains Zimmerman had a broken nose and cotusions to the back of his head which will also be used in court.

You don't always cut or bruise your hand punching someone if it was his fist and not elbow or something else that caused it.

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[cheri1122]

Zimmerman's injuries are a fact - how he got them is not, because no one witnessed the fight itself.
What I questioned was the lack of swelling in Martin's hand. Even if death was just minutes after, the swelling would have begun, if he hit someone hard enough to break their nose. No swelling = questions.
The trial will be interesting - there are a lot of holes in Zimmerman's story.

 

[RoadTime]

given that Z was lying on his back, with Martin straddling him

And who was the aggressor again

 

[paullud]

Well, I admit I read something on a website and took it as gospel, but that's generally accepted - when it's the actual autopsy report.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

As you can see by reading it yourself, except for the gunshot, the only other injury noted on Martin's body was one "small, 1/4 x 1/4 abrasion on 4th finger".
No swelling, bruising, or [gasp!] "bloody knuckles".
When you really, really want to know the facts, that's how it's done: take the time to find the source. Those are the facts that will be used in a court of law.

Thank you for proving my point. He had an injury right by his knuckle where his finger would have made contact from punching. There is clear evidence of a fight that took place between Martin and Zimmerman so I don't know why your caught up in claiming there isn't evidence of this. Those are really, really the facts that you still seem to ignore. Are you hoping to come up with some wacked out theory that all the neighbors and cops beat Zimmerman up to cover up a murder?

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[cheri1122]

I have never doubted that there was a fight, only who instigated it. [How does a scratch on the little finger prove your point?]
With no really credible eyewitnesses, because they all contradict each other, we are left with only Zimmerman's account. And he has demonstrated his willingness to ignore the rules [Neighborhood Watch], suborn perjury [his wife's arrest], change his story [the original statement, where he said Martin covered his nose & mouth] - how much evidence does it take to consider his word untrustworthy?

 

[cheri1122]

And who was the aggressor again

I'm pretty sure that the aggressor isn't always the person who wins the fight.

 

[paullud]

I have never doubted that there was a fight, only who instigated it. [How does a scratch on the little finger prove your point?]
With no really credible eyewitnesses, because they all contradict each other, we are left with only Zimmerman's account. And he has demonstrated his willingness to ignore the rules [Neighborhood Watch], suborn perjury [his wife's arrest], change his story [the original statement, where he said Martin covered his nose & mouth] - how much evidence does it take to consider his word untrustworthy?

Ummm, you kept saying there was no evidence on Martin's hand even though it was claimed he punched Zimmerman hard enough to break his nose, you said it bothered you. You had proof that you claim to be familiar with that says exactly the opposite because it clearly shows he had an injury on his ring finger which would be consistent with punching someone. Did you just create your own story, ignore evidence, and tell others they were wrong for fun? FYI for someone so familiar with the case and you know, the facts, you would also know he didn't ignore the rules of Neighborhood Watch since he was not part of their program. We are left with much more than Zimmerman's account as there is plenty of evidence.

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[Turtle]

FYI for someone so familiar with the case and you know, the facts, you would also know he didn't ignore the rules of Neighborhood Watch since he was not part of their program.

Do keep in mind, however, that Zimmerman claimed, on many occasions, to be not merely a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, but the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch of that particular community. Not only that, but he was self-appointed both to the Neighborhood Watch Program and to that of Captain.

The problem with that is, Neighborhood Watch doesn't have ranks, other than that of "block captain," who is an administrative person that puts together the schedules for the various watches. Official Neighborhood Watch Programs are where the members of the Program are trained, and their actions are vetted by the police. Zimmerman's copious calls to the police that amounted to false alarms and overreaction would have resulted in him being kicked out of the program or be forced to be retrained. Clearly, Zimmerman's version of Neighborhood Watch was an unofficial one, one without the proper training and rules. The notion that there was a captain, and he was it, summons questions of whether it is some sort of militaristic organization, real or imagined, especially with Zimmerman's failed attempts to become a police officer, which might have emboldened Zimmerman to use unnecessary and improper confrontational tactics which resulted in unnecessary violence.

 

[cheri1122]

Ummm, you kept saying there was no evidence on Martin's hand even though it was claimed he punched Zimmerman hard enough to break his nose, you said it bothered you.

What I said, actually, was no swelling or bruising, which doesn't seem likely with a blow hard enough to break a nose.

You had proof that you claim to be familiar with that says exactly the opposite because it clearly shows he had an injury on his ring finger which would be consistent with punching someone.

The ME found a 1/4" scratch on the 4th finger - that is the 'pinkie', because the thumb isn't a finger. As the sole injury sustained, it isn't very convincing.

Did you just create your own story, ignore evidence, and tell others they were wrong for fun? FYI for someone so familiar with the case and you know, the facts, you would also know he didn't ignore the rules of Neighborhood Watch since he was not part of their program. We are left with much more than Zimmerman's account as there is plenty of evidence.

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When Z was taken to the cop shop to give a statement, Det. Singer introduced the recording by saying Zimmerman had seen Martin while patrolling as Neighborhood Watch. Either Z said that prior to making his first official statement, then changed it [because NW doesn't permit patrollers to be armed], or the Det. simply assumed it, because Z made sure everyone knew he had that status. I'm also wondering why he didn't correct the Det. when she said it, if he hadn't - he knew it was part of the official record, and every word matters.
Neighborhood Watch is an official program run by the Sheriff's Association, who have no record of or affiliation with the Zimmerman group. If there even is a group - Z may have been the only one in it. Which is another rule broken: NW patrols in pairs.
I believe it says a lot about Z's character that he wanted the authority & legitimacy of the NW program, but he didn't want to follow the rules they set out.

 

[layoutshooter]

I believe that none of this matters. The ONLY things that are going to matter is the evidence that is presented during the trial and the very good chance that finding enough unbiased people to sit on this jury may not be possible thanks to all the BS put out by the "news outlets".

 

[RoadTime]

It don't take much force to break someones nose. I've hit things much hander then this, fist or palm, with no injuries.

"Smack the palm of your hand into your attacker's nose as hard as you possibly can. It takes approximately 7 pounds of pressure to break a bone. Even a child has the ability to break an attacker's nose with this method."

Read more: How to Break an Attacker's Nose | eHow How to Break an Attacker's Nose | eHow

 

[cheri1122]

Thanks, RT, for straightening that out - it never would have occurred to me to look up how to break someone's nose, lol. Seems it would take more force, but then, I've never actually done it. [I just throw things.]
So that only leaves about 87 other questions unresolved - like I said, the trial will be interesting.

 

[paullud]

When Z was taken to the cop shop to give a statement, Det. Singer introduced the recording by saying Zimmerman had seen Martin while patrolling as Neighborhood Watch. Either Z said that prior to making his first official statement, then changed it [because NW doesn't permit patrollers to be armed], or the Det. simply assumed it, because Z made sure everyone knew he had that status. I'm also wondering why he didn't correct the Det. when she said it, if he hadn't - he knew it was part of the official record, and every word matters.
Neighborhood Watch is an official program run by the Sheriff's Association, who have no record of or affiliation with the Zimmerman group. If there even is a group - Z may have been the only one in it. Which is another rule broken: NW patrols in pairs.
I believe it says a lot about Z's character that he wanted the authority & legitimacy of the NW program, but he didn't want to follow the rules they set out.

He claimed he was part of it because he wanted to feel like an important person but the fact is he was not associated with NW. I have no doubt in my mind Zimmerman is an annoying wannabe cop that just wasn't able to make it. I have no doubt he was following Martin and that Martin became concerned because some stupid idiot was following him. The problem comes from the fact that the evidence shows Martin then confronted and attacked Zimmerman. This gave Zimmerman the right to defend himself as he saw fit which in this case cost a young person their life. Martin obviously had a cell phone with which he should have called the cops for help if he thought Zimmerman was a problem. Instead Martin, being full of testosterone and the tough guy mentality decided to handle it his way.

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[paullud]

Thanks, RT, for straightening that out - it never would have occurred to me to look up how to break someone's nose, lol. Seems it would take more force, but then, I've never actually done it. [I just throw things.]
So that only leaves about 87 other questions unresolved - like I said, the trial will be interesting.

The "nose bone" is just cartilage.

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[cheri1122]

P: can you cite the evidence that shows "Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman"? Because if there were any, Z wouldn't have been arrested. Martin definitely 'confronted' Zimmerman, asking why he was following, [or, if you accept Z's version, whether Z had a problem], but Martin had every right to confront someone who was following him and ask why. Zimmerman admits that he denied it when confronted, but after that, we don't know how it escalated.

 

[layoutshooter]

We KNOW all of this since ALL of the news "outlets" were so TOTALLY honest in their reporting and NONE of them had ANY agenda to push, right?

 

[cheri1122]

We KNOW all of this since ALL of the news "outlets" were so TOTALLY honest in their reporting and NONE of them had ANY agenda to push, right?

What we know in this case is not dependent upon the news outlets, because it happened in Fl, where records are a matter of public interest. Everything the media has reported can be fact checked, if you're interested in the facts.
When the media says Martin had "bloody knuckles" or "injuries to his knuckles", we can actually look at the autopsy report to see whether that's true. One 1/4 scratch on the littlest finger does not qualify as "bloody knuckles" or "injuries" plural.
I check what the media reports against the actual documents - did you?

 

[layoutshooter]

Nope, not interested. I don't trust the news or the police department. No reason to. The news has zero credibility and the police can cover up anything, or nothing, as they please, to serve their own purpose.

I would really hate to sit on a jury these days. Between the irresponsibility of the press and the out of control government, including many police departments, I would have a LOT of trouble in a court room.