At least she's not on the jury...

[paullud]

So I looked into it a bit more, and it seems Martin's history of "breaking into things and stealing" consists of one incident where the school searched his backpack [looking for a marker after someone wrote "WTF" on a door] and found some women's jewelry & a screwdriver. The jewelry was given to Martin by a friend - the school turned it over to police, and it was never claimed, identified, or traced to any burglary. The screwdriver was called a 'burglary tool', which is just ludicrous, ok?
I found absolutely nothing concerning Martin's "issues with violent confrontations", so please enlighten us: what do you know about it?
I know he was at his father's because he was suspended from school for the baggie with traces of marijuana. Big deal - if that's the worst crime he committed, [and it seems to be], he was more like a typical high school student than even a thug wannabe.
I also found the transcript for Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity, and that was really interesting: he repeats the original claim that Martin "tried to suffocate" him, and insists that Martin "punched him more than a dozen times".

Yeah, right.

"Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, inaddition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described the screwdriver as a burglary tool.Trayvon was asked if the jewelry, which was mostly women’s rings and earrings, belonged to his family or a girlfriend.“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend."

The fact that the items weren't able to be connected to a theft is far from rare. I'm not sure how you have missed so much evidence showing the type of garbage Martin was. He has been suspended previously from school for fighting, he was bragging about how much he likes fighting, he was participating in organized street fights, and he was trying to illegally purchase a handgun. All this evidence and more but yet for some reason people are still ignorantly claiming he was just a typical kid. You don't even have to take another person's word for any of it as it is all in Martin's own words from text messages he sent.


http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php?start=10

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[Turtle]

Wow, I had no idea that being in possession of jewelry that cannot be connected to a theft was evidence of anything, let alone evidence that the possesor was garbage. Amazing what you learn here on EO. I am garbage.

Actually, what amazes me is how many people here jumped almost immediately to one side or the other and have since accepted evidence as critically important, or rejected evidence as utterly meaningless, depending on whether or not it fits their side, completely disregarding what actual evidence is and whether or not it's relevant.

 

[Ragman]

All this is all fine and dandy, but the one thing everybody is forgetting, a young man is dead, and that is the real crime.

 

[paullud]

Wow, I had no idea that being in possession of jewelry that cannot be connected to a theft was evidence of anything, let alone evidence that the possesor was garbage. Amazing what you learn here on EO. I am garbage.

Actually, what amazes me is how many people here jumped almost immediately to one side or the other and have since accepted evidence as critically important, or rejected evidence as utterly meaningless, depending on whether or not it fits their side, completely disregarding what actual evidence is and whether or not it's relevant.

The jewelry was suspicious, try looking at the rest of the evidence that made him a piece of garbage.

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[paullud]

All this is all fine and dandy, but the one thing everybody is forgetting, a young man is dead, and that is the real crime.

No one is forgetting it but I see it as a much worse situation for Zimmerman and his family. George has to live with the fact he killed someone and his life will never be easy. His family now has to deal with the threats and fear simply because they are related.

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[paullud]

Wow, I had no idea that being in possession of jewelry that cannot be connected to a theft was evidence of anything, let alone evidence that the possesor was garbage. Amazing what you learn here on EO. I am garbage.

Actually, what amazes me is how many people here jumped almost immediately to one side or the other and have since accepted evidence as critically important, or rejected evidence as utterly meaningless, depending on whether or not it fits their side, completely disregarding what actual evidence is and whether or not it's relevant.

Actually in the beginning I thought Zimmerman should be found guilty because he killed an innocent child out of racism. Then as the truth came out I changed my mind and realized Zimmerman was railroaded.

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[davekc]

Wow, I had no idea that being in possession of jewelry that cannot be connected to a theft was evidence of anything, let alone evidence that the possesor was garbage. Amazing what you learn here on EO. I am garbage.

Actually, what amazes me is how many people here jumped almost immediately to one side or the other and have since accepted evidence as critically important, or rejected evidence as utterly meaningless, depending on whether or not it fits their side, completely disregarding what actual evidence is and whether or not it's relevant.

That last line at this point says it for me. "Actual Evidence". Up to this point, they haven't presented any. A lot of this and that from both sides but still......no evidence. One "might" appear guiltier (is that a word?) but that doesn't translate in to a murder conviction.

 

[Turtle]

That last line at this point says it for me. "Actual Evidence". Up to this point, they haven't presented any. A lot of this and that from both sides but still......no evidence. One "might" appear guiltier (is that a word?) but that doesn't translate in to a murder conviction.

That's pretty much it. No evidence has been presented.

We do know some of what will be presented, however, but a lot of what people are taking as evidence isn't really evidence at all. Or it's evidence of nothing, or of something utterly unrelated to the incident.

Evidence is only evidence if it proves something without also having to assume anything about it.

For example, if Martin had pictures on his phone of himself beating up a homeless man, that would be evidence of him beating up a homeless man, not evidence that he attacked Zimmerman. To think otherwise is making assumptions beyond the facts. By the same token, Zimmerman made a whole bunch of calls to the police where he saw suspicious people who turned out to be doing nothing at all suspicious, and he has a history of following and confronting people, but that's hardly evidence that he followed and confronted Martin or that he falsely accused Martin of suspicious activity on that night. It works both ways.

So far in this thread (and the others like it) every time someone has said, "Look at the evidence," what they really actually in reality saying is, "Look at the assumptions I've made and the conclusions I've drawn from these particular bits and pieces of evidence."

All that matters is the evidence as presented in court.

 

[skyraider]

Is it time for a cold suds yet, I mean,,,has this horse been beaten to death yet?

 

[cheri1122]

I agree.

I think Mrs. Kravitz-Zimmerman got a little too nosy, saw "suspicious" where it didn't exist, escalated an "observe and report" situation into a situation where he then confronted Martin, and then Martin overreacted in typical combative teenager fashion, resulting in tragedy. I do think Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense, not murder, but I think the self-defense situation was created by Zimmerman himself when he went beyond the scope "observe and report" and took it to "pursue and intimidate," even if the "intimidate" was only in the mind of Martin.

I'd pretty much agree with that, except there are 2 things that just don't fit, IMO: if Z has a clear case of self defense, why do his statements contain so many illogical elements, & why was Martin's reaction so wildly disproportionate, even for a typical combative teenager?
I think the answer to both is that what Z left out of his version was that he actually grabbed Martin by the arm, in an attempt to just keep him from getting away, "like they always did". He knew the police were coming, and he wanted the perp attempting to break into homes stopped, and he really thought he had a good suspect - he just wanted to hold him for the cops to question.
Martin, though, didn't know the cops were coming, or why Zimmerman was following him, and refused to explain - all he knew was that the guy just grabbed him, and people like Jeffrey Dahmer are real, and they really kill other people, too.
It's the only scenario that makes sense to me, because Zimmerman should have had a clear case for self defense, but his statements just don't add up: he's not being truthful. He knows that admitting to even grabbing Martin's arm would muddy the waters of self defense, no matter how innocent his intention in doing it.
The reason I feel Zimmerman bears the greater responsibility is because he knew why he was following Martin, but Martin didn't know what was going on in the other guy's head - all he had to go on was his imagination, and people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ariel Castro DO exist, and they look just like normal people.
Definitely a tragedy, all around.