We need a Major Conflict

[OntarioVanMan]

There was more to my Uncles anger then just the one point....it was the fact that the US tried to stay out of it "officially" but profitted from the sale of arms..and yet sent some volunteers to England...

It wasn't till Pearl that forced the US's hand and got them involved....who knows...If the Nips hadn't attacked would the US have fought the squareheads?

And IF the Japs had not attacked as well it wouldn't have taken up so many Brit and Can. resources the world wouldn't have needed the US to get involved....a lot of if's eh?

The rest of the world knows we need a major conflict..it is the US with its head up their arse this time...

 

[letzrockexpress]

If the Nips hadn't attacked would the US have fought the squareheads?

The Nips? The Squareheads? Nice...

 

[OntarioVanMan]

The Nips? The Squareheads? Nice...

How bout Ruskies?

Its a fact and in the history books..we still watch John Wayne movies where they are called that..the PC crowd hasn't got Hollywood to edit those movies yet....

 

[greg334]

Ask the UK if what Chamberlian did after Hitler started moving was smart and helped or hurt?

I did and I got a surprising answer - he was a hero to the country for the agreement he had with Hitler.

What happened when war actually started was not what the history books show but rather a political assassination while he was sick and dying and there has been an assumption that Chamberlain sold out the world for peace ever since.

 

[Pilgrim]

Indeed...what happened when Chamberlain returned from Munich in the Fall of 1938 with the "Anglo-German Agreement" signed by Hitler was the basis for false hope among the British population that war between the two countries had been avoided. Chamberlain was hearalded as a hero upon his return with this worthless piece of paper, when in fact Hitler had no intention of honoring any facet of the "agreement". The British people were totally misled by the declarations from their govt. that were the result of Chamberlain's naievete and Hitler's deception. On the other hand, Winston Churchill was appropriately skeptical and properly stated to the House of Commons that "England has been offered a choice between war and shame. She has chosen shame, and will get war."

This period of history gives us a valuable insight into our current situation that we see developing with Iran. We have a despotic theocracy in charge of a country that is developing nuclear weapons, and offers lip service and stalling tactics to its adversaries to keep them at bay until said development is complete. We have a weak and incompetent president of the US that actually sympathises with most of their islamofacist positions, and is facilitating their advancement by his do-nothing policies. Churchill's statement is strikingly appropriate today: the Barack Hussein Obama administration is choosing shame in its policies, and will get war. Our country has never had a president and administration that is so strikingly inept in not only foreign, but also domestic administration.

 

[layoutshooter]

I did and I got a surprising answer - he was a hero to the country for the agreement he had with Hitler.

What happened when war actually started was not what the history books show but rather a political assassination while he was sick and dying and there has been an assumption that Chamberlain sold out the world for peace ever since.

You talked to different Brits than I did then. Most I talked to, mainly combat vets, said that he was an idiot. He cost England and Europe many lives. I guess it is all in the eyes of the beholder and what those eyes had to behold as a result.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

And how many lives has our US educated and trained Bin Laden cost us...? and then of course there is Saddam...you know the guy we sold all them WMD to in the first place...we made some lousy choices as well in history....
And now we are in bed with China....that will come back to haunt us big time...

 

[layoutshooter]

And how many lives has our US educated and trained Bin Laden cost us...? and then of course there is Saddam...you know the guy we sold all them WMD to in the first place...we made some lousy choices as well in history....
And now we are in bed with China....that will come back to haunt us big time...

We were in bed with Russia during WWII as well.That came back to haunt all of Eastern Europe. How many millions died there? 25? 30?

Nothing is a given except for one thing, sitting back and doing NOTHING always is worse. We may not always get it right, but at least we don't pull the stupidity of, say the U.N., and just sit back and do nothing. Well, now we do. We have a "Coward in Chief" as opposed to a "Commander in Chief"

 

[OntarioVanMan]

We were in bed with Russia during WWII as well.That came back to haunt all of Eastern Europe. How many millions died there? 25? 30?

Nothing is a given except for one thing, sitting back and doing NOTHING always is worse. We may not always get it right, but at least we don't pull the stupidity of, say the U.N., and just sit back and do nothing. Well, now we do. We have a "Coward in Chief" as opposed to a "Commander in Chief"

Yep...The CIC seems to be a Hamas supporter...

 

[layoutshooter]

Yep...The CIC seems to be a Hamas supporter...

This Putz would have supported the GULAGS. He HATES freedom.

 

[aristotle]

And how many lives has our US educated and trained Bin Laden cost us...? and then of course there is Saddam...you know the guy we sold all them WMD to in the first place...we made some lousy choices as well in history....
And now we are in bed with China....that will come back to haunt us big time...

Osama bin Laden is US educated? When and where?

 

[greg334]

You talked to different Brits than I did then. Most I talked to, mainly combat vets, said that he was an idiot. He cost England and Europe many lives. I guess it is all in the eyes of the beholder and what those eyes had to behold as a result.

He was no idiot. To be exact if you learn about the guy, you will find out he did a lot of good things for the UK. It was the book which was written at the start of the war, which wasn't accurate by the way, that trashed him and a number of others. The book was a best seller there and until the 1950's when other books were written about him, most of the population took it as fact.

The lives lost was not because of the Munich agreement but because of the failures of Chamberlain and the rest of the government to build up arms. He was faced with the failures of the military in Europe, which Churchill ended up with and had to make some serious changes within the military and getting the houses on his side.

Remember that the Munich agreement was the foundation for the Anglo–German Agreement which was the "peace in our times" thing. The Munich agreement was a mutual agreement between four countries over the issue of Czechoslovakia annexed into Germany because of Hitler threaten to start a war within Europe if he didn't get his way. He neither had the man power or the resources at the time to go to war and like Stalin, he was betting that he would be told no to test what he could do. He didn't expect France and England to go along with him and played it well when they did. It wasn't our fault, we had little to do with it and at the time we couldn't do a thing to stop Hitler in 1938 nor could we in 1942.

 

[layoutshooter]

I did not say he was an idiot, those combat British combat vets who were stuck fighting that war called him an idiot.


I don't know that I agree that we could have done nothing in 1938. We knew what was coming. I believe that Hitler could have been stopped without fighting that war. Just as I believe that Iran could be handled without fighting a war. The time frame for that to happen is ending quickly. Then it will be too late.

 

[Pilgrim]

I did not say he was an idiot, those combat British combat vets who were stuck fighting that war called him an idiot.


I don't know that I agree that we could have done nothing in 1938. We knew what was coming. I believe that Hitler could have been stopped without fighting that war. Just as I believe that Iran could be handled without fighting a war. The time frame for that to happen is ending quickly. Then it will be too late.

There are many historians - Churchill among them - that have said WW2 could have been prevented if the British and French had stopped Hitler at the Rhineland and militarily called his bluff. At that point in time he had not developed his war machine to a sufficient level that would have been competitive with the combined forces of France and Britain. However, they chose the appeasement option instead of striking down Hitler when they had the chance.

Fast forward to the present day: does everyone see the similarities between the two situations? We still have the opportunity to stop Iran's nuclear development without getting into a full-blown shooting war. Without nuclear weapons the Iranians don't stand a chance against Israel, much less the military might of the US. Once they get the bomb, everything changes. Netanyahu understands this; Barack Hussein Obama either doesn't get it or doesn't care. In either case, it's a high probability that the Jews aren't going to let the Iranians (who are committed to their extinction) complete their nuclear development. They also realize that the toothless sanctions imposed on Iran by the UN will continue to be insignificant and ineffective as a deterrent to their nuclear ambitions, just as the unenforced sanctions were against Nazi Germany in the 1930s.

The difference between then and now is that it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN the Israelis launch a military strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities. Keep in mind that their action has to happen before the Iranians have a chance to install the missile defenses being sold to them by the Russians. This military action will hopefully staunch their development and buy enough time for someone to deal decisively with the mullahocracy.

Meanwhile, our Appeaser in Chief continues to follow the script of his teleprompters, appoint commissions and meet with panels of experts to tell him whose azz to kick. Unlike Chamberlain, his ineffectiveness is all-encompassing.

 

[greg334]

I don't know that I agree that we could have done nothing in 1938. We knew what was coming. I believe that Hitler could have been stopped without fighting that war.

You may think we had all kinds of political or diplomatic power but Europe blamed us for the depression and we were in the middle of a the depression that was further caused by FDR's policies.

France was nervous about Germany, after being kicked out of Germany when Hitler remilitarization the Rhineland, they depended on England and PM Baldwin to back them but that didn't happen. France could have stopped Hitler but their treasury was "depleted" and didn't want to risk war while grapes were being harvested. Hitler admitted that the remilitarization of the Rhine could have been stopped and it would have been the end for his government but nothing but hollow threats came about so he moved on with his plans.

France, even though watched Hitler closely, they still had the attitude that they could have been attacked and did some weird things but also were still very arrogant about their ablity to defeat the Germans once more, even though they didn't defeat them in the first world war - "oui oui, we have the Maginot line and our Armée de l'Air will blast those germans out of the sky with our Dewoitine D.27"

UK PM Baldwin by the way has more to blame for the war than Chamberlain. He set in motion the policies of appeasement that were the foundation on the road to war.

FDR had his hands full with the recession within the depression in 1937. Even though he started to ask congress to increase military spending then, nothing really came about and the military was not willing to go along with a rearmement - in other words we were weak.

 

[layoutshooter]

You may think we had all kinds of political or diplomatic power but Europe blamed us for the depression and we were in the middle of a the depression that was further caused by FDR's policies.

France was nervous about Germany, after being kicked out of Germany when Hitler remilitarization the Rhineland, they depended on England and PM Baldwin to back them but that didn't happen. France could have stopped Hitler but their treasury was "depleted" and didn't want to risk war while grapes were being harvested. Hitler admitted that the remilitarization of the Rhine could have been stopped and it would have been the end for his government but nothing but hollow threats came about so he moved on with his plans.

France, even though watched Hitler closely, they still had the attitude that they could have been attacked and did some weird things but also were still very arrogant about their ablity to defeat the Germans once more, even though they didn't defeat them in the first world war - "oui oui, we have the Maginot line and our Armée de l'Air will blast those germans out of the sky with our Dewoitine D.27"

UK PM Baldwin by the way has more to blame for the war than Chamberlain. He set in motion the policies of appeasement that were the foundation on the road to war.

FDR had his hands full with the recession within the depression in 1937. Even though he started to ask congress to increase military spending then, nothing really came about and the military was not willing to go along with a rearmement - in other words we were weak.

We are weak now and getting weaker every day. We have no leadership. We are seen as weak all over the world. That is just ONE of the reasons that Turkey, a long time member of NATO, is getting "cozy" with Iran. We are just asking for it. We did NOT learn the lessons of that failed attempt at appeasement. We will reap the same reward. Weakness breeds contempt.

 

[greg334]

Turkeys doing the same thing we did in 1905, they are posturing themselves to become a player. Their ties with Iran have to do with religion, and after 60 or so years of dominate western modernization, they are in a good position to do more and become more than the country named after a dumb bird.

The Israeli thing wasn't in the best interest of their country, their leadership can't stand there and be silent but can't side with the US or Israel either because they will have to deal with a Pakistan style opposition within their borders - kind of tough for them. They will continue to take the position that it is their region and they may know better than we do what is needed in the region.

Don't think for a minute that Turkey wants a renegade Iran running the show or disrupting their trade, their people, like those of Dubia and other liberal Muslim countries enjoy their freedoms, stuff and won't tolerate Iran's oppression.

What's messing things up with Iran isn't our leadership, though it is a part of a bigger problem for us and the world but it is the UN and the security and human rights councils. Their involvement causing problems for all of us dealing with NK and Iran.

Imagine Hillary going to Iran and saying to Ahmadinejad, "if you play nice I will send you a box set of Sean Penn movies, good smithfield ham and some bacon" - that's essentially what we have with the UN right now.

 

[layoutshooter]

I am well aware of the problems that the U.N. cause. Obama is a fan of both the U.N. and their brand of corruption. He fits right in with them.

I am not so sure about your ideas on Turkey. I can see them murdering million of their people if it suited their needs. You are right about them moving into a more of a "player" role. WE could have use that desire to our advantage had we a real LEADER in the White House who had a clue about anything.

 

[greg334]

I think that's where Bush and Rice excelled, they use regional groups to get through to other - NK is a good example.

As for murdering millions, any country is capable of doing that. France and Germany seem to do well enough by not fighting for solutions with Africa but rather blame the US for it.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I would imagine if Turkey makes any kind of power play Greece would make a move as well....since they have that what 2,000 yr old war going on...I mean we still man the DMZ in Cyprus...boy it is like a dominoe game over there...everything is connected...