am thinking someone is also disagreeing with you Greg....
van line haul distance
- Thread starter LDB
- Start date
I believe adults should have full control over their choices until such time as their choices become reckless/stupid/dangerous/damaging/etc.. Sensible limitations on driving hours are no different than blood alcohol level laws. They are there to ensure those who know they have abilities beyond those of mere mortal men don't injure others. In an ideal society there would be no need for any laws or regulations. That's Utopia I guess. That isn't where any of us live. I don't care who anyone is or thinks they are they are not as alert/capable/competent at mile 1001 as they are at mile 1 unless they've had a substantial rest period along the way.
I am talking about maximum allowable driving with no breaks!!!
I am talking about minimum amount of break time per amount of driving time!!!
I am talking about maximum allowable driving with no breaks!!!
I am talking about minimum amount of break time per amount of driving time!!!
greg334
Veteran Expediter
OVM,
You guys don't get it.... vans are regulated the same way as trucks but they are regulated to the full extent. If they want to regulated vans, all the states have to do is change their laws and that's it.
This has nothing to do with envy or anything along those lines, it has to do with facts.
The thing is your freedom to operate under the ICC is the same as mine, no difference. We work in a regulated industry because we choose to, no one makes us.
I have the freedom to decide how and where to drive my truck but I can't decide to take household goods, or truck things across state lines without permits (another freedom lost?).
You have to operate under the same exact regulations as I do - no exception.
Your company has no right to tell the state of Michigan that they will follow one regulation but not another - they have to follow all of them.
The constitution doesn't see the vehicle, it doesn't say vans are exempt while trains are not. It says the feds have the right to regulate interstate commerce, and in doing so, if it is a horse and buggy, train or tricycle bringing commercial goods across state lines - they have the right to regulated it.
Where as Rlen'ts argument is they are taking freedoms away just like they are on the 2nd amendment - its wrong. There are no freedoms being regulated, your commercial vehicle is just that, a commercial vehicle and falls under the same laws as my truck.
You guys don't get it.... vans are regulated the same way as trucks but they are regulated to the full extent. If they want to regulated vans, all the states have to do is change their laws and that's it.
This has nothing to do with envy or anything along those lines, it has to do with facts.
The thing is your freedom to operate under the ICC is the same as mine, no difference. We work in a regulated industry because we choose to, no one makes us.
I have the freedom to decide how and where to drive my truck but I can't decide to take household goods, or truck things across state lines without permits (another freedom lost?).
You have to operate under the same exact regulations as I do - no exception.
Your company has no right to tell the state of Michigan that they will follow one regulation but not another - they have to follow all of them.
The constitution doesn't see the vehicle, it doesn't say vans are exempt while trains are not. It says the feds have the right to regulate interstate commerce, and in doing so, if it is a horse and buggy, train or tricycle bringing commercial goods across state lines - they have the right to regulated it.
Where as Rlen'ts argument is they are taking freedoms away just like they are on the 2nd amendment - its wrong. There are no freedoms being regulated, your commercial vehicle is just that, a commercial vehicle and falls under the same laws as my truck.
I remember him and that story...
I think most of us have pushed ourselves at times that extra hour or 2.....admittingly even me....BUT so does a straight when not properly slept...just because the book says he is legal...
Hey look my log book says I am ok to drive....I haven't slept in 24 hours but it is legal to drive...log book says so....
My bottom line is this....
I don't want those same regulations the big trucks have extended or enforced on me....I am sure not going to volunteer,
So I will behave as not to draw attention to myself and mess things up for my fellow CV'ers and I hope they extend the same courtesy to me so we can whip some straight job butt!
I don't want those same regulations the big trucks have extended or enforced on me....I am sure not going to volunteer,
So I will behave as not to draw attention to myself and mess things up for my fellow CV'ers and I hope they extend the same courtesy to me so we can whip some straight job butt!
We do agree quite often. I assure you my comments here have nothing to do with envy. To the best of my knowledge I am welcome at any carrier I choose to go with and wanted by several at any given time. My interest is purely safety. We'll have to disagree on the idea of HOS for vans vs. soccer moms for the fact that soccer moms aren't engaged in paid commerce while we are. Rules could easily be put in place for anyone operating a motor vehicle for hire while ignoring John/Jane Doe operating their vehicle for personal reasons for free. In an ideal universe solo operators of all truck sizes would get 8-9k paid miles monthly within the parameters of HOS. It's certainly doable. What isn't doable is 1k miles with only short stops for fuel and toilet with equal alertness the last 100 miles as the first 100 miles.
guido4475
Not a Member
It doesnt matter what a person drives, regulated or not.There are so many co's out there that let a driver run the way they want to, just as long as the book looks good.In the past I loaded in Nag's Head, N.C., and ran straight thru to Hayward, Ca, slept 5 hours, and then loaded in Fremont,Ca going to Roseau, M.N straigh thru.Stupid? You bet, and I'd never do it again, and it was a huge risk to me and others.But if I needed a nap, I'd stop and take a 15 min nap, not that that really justified this stupidity.No drugs or anything, just pure adrenilin, and the need to make $$$ real quick.But why are we worrying so much about seasoned drivers in vans or s/t's when there are so many four-wheelers out there that attempt to do this for the first time,unseasoned, and dont have the sense to pull over and take a nap? There is so much more to worry about outside of our industry. Look at the statistics that tell us what the actual percentage of accidents involving a commercial driver are caused by,namely, the four-wheeler.
I agree with a lot of that however what if the accident caused by the four wheeler involved a commercial driver in mile 6xx or a van driver in mile 9xx? Would that same van driver be able to avoid the accident in the first 100 miles? Maybe he would due to less fatigue. Too many variables and no way to know of course but almost certainly he wouldn't be more likely to wreck at the beginning of the trip.
As I said in an earlier post, cargo vans are only one tired-driver accident away from being subjected to the same HOS regulations as straight trucks. This mandate would have NOTHING to do with an infringement on individual freedoms - it's about public safety. Considering current requirements like mandatory seat belt usage, it's an easy and logical step to make HOS rules apply to vans - and why not? If a cargo van loaded with 2500 lbs of ball bearings has a head-on collision with a mini-van carrying a soccer mom and 5 kids, they're just as dead as if they had been hit by a straight truck. If the van driver is fortunate enough to survive, he and his family (and the truck owner, if applicable) will be sued for eternity, but the driver's expedite company will have forgotten his name by the time the wreckage is cleared. Wonder how many dispatchers consider this scenario whenever they offer a single driver a 1200-mile load to be delivered direct in 24 hours?
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Exactly .... like many things, once you start down that road it's a slippery slope ......... carried to the level of insanity you get ..... well, just look around
Some folks apparently have become so enamored of their chains, that they think you ought to be wearing a set too ...
OVM - You GET IT .......
Bingo !
And even worse than that, here you have a guy (Leo Bunker™) who was formerly driving a big truck, and apparently became used to - no, actually fond of - the restrictions that were imposed on that activity (ostensibly because he can't trust his own self to do the right thing) ....
He has now decided that he wants to drive a cargo van.
With apparently no experience whatsoever in actually doing that just yet, he has now determined - since he, and only those who think exactly like him, are apparently the sole possessors of wisdom and common sense - that you need to be regulated - according to what he determines you are capable of (even though he doesn't actually know you, and has, in fact, never even met you) ..... because afterall: he knows best - but, you - the actual individual - don't .....
This is a great example of what a busybody, who (apparently) has nothing better to do with his time than to worry about, NOT what others have ACTUALLY DONE - or some problem that others have ACTUALLY CAUSED ..... but what they MIGHT potentially do, does.
Folks, you all would do well to EXAMINE, REPEATEDLY, the following couple of quotations, IN DETAIL:
"Truthfully, I don't care if some don't like it and I don't care if some know (in their mind only) they are fully capable of more than the sensible limit, they need to be restricted."
The utter arrogance and hypocrisy of such a statement is almost unfathomable .... you literally couldn't make it up.
The real irony of it is, is that LDB is advocating exactly the type of thing he has repeatedly railed against on EO in other forums, time and time again - the furtherance of Nanny-ism ..... a Nanny State .... or a Nanny Company ....
"We all need to be restricted ......."
The above, in my estimation is an insane point of view - it is a computation that is reflective of someone who has so little trust in their fellows and themselves that I shudder to think of where things might end up were they to gain the reins of power .....
Oh ..... wait a minute .... I think I already live in place where that is happening .... in the extreme .....
Not only does such a person not trust their fellows, but they don't even trust themselves ..... to the point of requiring some other determinism than themselves, to control their own actions.
That is just lulu ... absolutely nuts. And it is the absolute height of irresponsibility.
Such thinking is how slaves are made.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
If I had ever done it, I'd admit to it (privately) .... but certainly not on a public forum ....
Yup - that's true - it can .... and it sometimes does.
Interesting thing about it though ...... if you read the thread: MSinger had had a full nights sleep prior to doing the load - and had only travelled a distance of roughly 475 miles or so (Greensburg, IN to around Conway, MO)
This illustrates the point very well that regulations often do not solve problems that they are supposedly intended to address: The guy would have been in compliance (had there been any that applied) and was apparently well-rested.
MSinger specifically stated that he was not fatigued - which illustrates the point that sleepiness (or lack of alertness) and fatigue can be, and are in fact, two different things - or at the very least, not necessarily the same thing - point I either made earlier in response to a post, or planned to.
If personal responsibility were sufficient there would be no HOS, no speed limits, no BAC limits, no... no... no... no... no... ad infinitum. Since relying on personal responsibility has been a failure in all areas it's been tried in the alternative of sensible regulations has been implemented.. at least in theory sensible. Not all of them are sensible and that's a shame. Pretty much all of them are necessary.
As to your subtle or maybe not so subtle insults to me, yes, I drove an HOS truck and now am moving into a van. No, I haven't hauled van freight yet however I do know something of the industry, certainly enough to have a valid opinion towards it. While under HOS I always exercised good judgment, some of those times being when the piece of paper said I was fine to drive and knowing better I said I wasn't and refused to do so.
If there are no finite limits, many folks will push the limits, some of them doing so often. Eventually some of that group will push too far and someone will suffer because of it. You don't care. I do.
As to your subtle or maybe not so subtle insults to me, yes, I drove an HOS truck and now am moving into a van. No, I haven't hauled van freight yet however I do know something of the industry, certainly enough to have a valid opinion towards it. While under HOS I always exercised good judgment, some of those times being when the piece of paper said I was fine to drive and knowing better I said I wasn't and refused to do so.
If there are no finite limits, many folks will push the limits, some of them doing so often. Eventually some of that group will push too far and someone will suffer because of it. You don't care. I do.
Dakota
Veteran Expediter
Rlent/Turtle....I am I sensing some wheel envy from these guys?*LOL*
Maybe us vans are hurting the straights..
By taking our advantage away from us vanners....
I am not saying we need more regulation. I am saying we need more common sense. Something this world is lacking.
If it is nasty out most likely you won't be out driving as long because you will be fatigued. Yes, most anyone can drive for 18 hours, but are they doing it safely? I think not.
Also, I think the logging rules are stupid. Why can't a driver take a 3 or 4 hour nap and continue on? Under the current rules we are always watching the 11 hour driving clock and the 14 hour total clock. So even if we are tired we have to push on before we run out of total hours. I think a three hour nap shouldn't count against you. If a driver with a sleeper is at a dock for five hours it counts against them. even if they were sleeping.
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It is difficult for me to speak on this issue without becoming livid. I will try, again. Where are the statistics showing highway fatalities caused by expedite van drivers?? I imagine that number to be so small, almost nonexistent, that it does not merit tracking. Without hard data demonstrating the need for radical change, no case for change can be made. It's going to take a lot more than complaints from whiny FedEx/Panther drivers to force their rules on everyone else. One or two anecdotal stories about tired drivers is not a mandate for change. Where are the numbers? Where is all this carnage caused by expedite van drivers? It simply does not exist except in the minds of a few.
I'm quite certain there has been no whining, just an ongoing discussion of whether self awareness and self policing is guaranteed to provide safety as well as ongoing discussion of what is a safe distance when there isn't time available for napping en route.
You want guaranteed safety??!! All human endeavor is fraught with risk. Please be serious... good grief. Advocating regulation just for the sake of regulation? Have you crossed over to the Dark Side? Tell ya what... you can regulate my sleep and rest if I can regulate your caloric intake? May I regulate your food intake? Would you prefer the government stipulate your food habits? Overindulgence of food kills millions every year. Expedite van drivers have a fine safety record overall.
With 2000 van loads promptly and safely delivered, I know and trust my abilities as a driver. My carrier trusts me. You do not.
Again, I challenge you to tell us about the number of highway fatalities where expedite van drivers were held responsible. The premise of your argument presupposes we are a real danger.