van line haul distance

ebsprintin

Veteran Expediter
Piper the real question is how do you know at the start of the trip that you won't need to take a rest for a load that doesn't give you the time to rest. Is that what you are asking? I won't say I'm a supermiler (sounds too much like super trucker, but then who admits to being a super trucker), but I'll say how I monitor myself. For starters I try to sleep twice a day, so when a call comes in late in the day, I'll have had at least a recent nap. From experience I know that if I get five hours of sleep in a day then I will be productive. And coming off a good rest I can go farther. Additionally, I don't do caffeine or any other stimulants. I think it makes for better sleep cycles. That is how I plan ahead. As for the point when I say enough is enough. I know my own symptoms of fatigue leading up to the point of nodding off. The key is to know youself well enough and to have the discipline to recognize pre-nodoff and quit before knodding. It's a lot like knowing when to quit drinking. Some people don't know how or can't quit drinking. It's a matter of knowing your limits and adhering to them. I have been an hour from destination and stopped to sleep. I have been an hour out from the shipper and had to stop to sleep.

eb
 

ebsprintin

Veteran Expediter
Yeah, Dakota. Give me five days a week of 600 mile runs, and I would be happy. Then one week off each month for maintenance. That would be peachy.

eb
 

piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Not exactly what I was asking eb but your answer actually frames a better more relevant question, like you said, how do you know before?

My original question was inspired by a guy I met who said (with a serious face) that he knows he is tired after he has hit the rumble strips 3 times. Some have told me when they can't remember anything about the last 10 miles they perceive themselves to be too tired.
 

geo

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Navy
i run just like l log it when i ran my straight truck
run 11 hours and than take 10 hour's off
not run tried
just went up to upstate new york and back 2 days up and
3 day's off and than 2 day's back
could have done it in 11 hour's each time
but there was no hurry so why hurry
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
My neck tightens up like a twisted rubberband when i need to stop...when i start to rub my neck, I stop....Last we i did a Seward Neb to Laredo Tx.. 1036 loaded miles...23 hours was the allotted time, i stopped 3 times and napped and was 3 hours early......I am not about to endanger myself let allone anyine self by driving when I know i shouldnt....now I will drive a Red Bull and a 5 hour energy from time to time, but not to stay awake, more for the boost it gives me ......
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You guys who run the supermiler trips, how do you know that you are tired enough that you need to take a nap while en route?
I do simple math problems in my head. Current mile marker to next rest area, truck stop, exit, etc. If I'm having problems it is time to pull over. I've been doing this long enough that I just know when to stop and rest.

By now shouldn't someone have suggested that the real solution to the problem is to ban the van? --eb
Ooh, Ooh that's my cue: BAN THE VAN
Thanks eb
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
blizzard, jrcarroll, and tjpohio,

Excellent illustrations of the situations one can encounter in doing this job - I have certainly run into instances where a 400 or 600 mile run will be the limit - because I have either been up all day, or for some reason didn't sleep all that well (woken up in the middle of my sleep, say), or just didn't get as much as sleep as I would have liked, prior to the load.

There are other times where, as you fellows state, you wake up well rested and immediately, or in a short while, get a long run - and you can go 1000 miles .... or more. Other times, you may get up early, and take a nap in the afternoon - and be in good shape to go long.

Generally speaking, when I am out on the road working, running hard, the first and foremost thing that I try and attend to when completing a load is getting adequate rest for the next one.

When I finish a run, particularly a longer one, sleep generally comes before anything else - getting on the computer, taking a shower, eating ..... or, in some instances, even bothering to take a dump :eek:

I have been known to sleep for 10 or 12 hours .... or more .... sometimes I will sleep for 6 to 8 hours and wake up for a few hours, or just a bit (minutes) .... and then go back to sleep for another 4, or 6, hours ..... or more. More often than not, I can make myself go to sleep - whether I am truly tired or not.

As a solo unregulated driver, one needs to get as much of it as you can, when you can - because you never know whether the next call will be for 100 miles .... or 1000 ......

As guido rightly points out, to some extent it is a matter of conditioning and self-discipline - many may not be aware of the extent which one can exert control over one's body, and one's mental state. There certainly are limits to the extent of human endurance - however they may be much, much more than what many have been led to believe.

In a former life, I was involved in a business which was very much deadline driven, where very bad things would happen if deadlines were not met. On more than a couple occasions I had to stay up working well beyond where I really would have preferred to - I'm speaking in terms of staying up for days. The worst instance of it was one project I worked on where I had to stay up working for better than 3 days straight (almost 4 days), in order to meet a deadline.

I was able to do it - and was productive - and met my deadline. Interestingly, at some point into that fiasco, I was actually less tired than I had been at an earlier point - I guess that is what is known as a second wind. Of course, by the end of it, I was physically and mentally exhausted - and I needed to sleep and rest - but I wasn't falling asleep.

To some extent, remaining interested (in one's environment, the task one is performing, etc.) can play a huge role in how one feels, and in one's mental state and level of alertness. Allowing oneself to become bored with whatever one is doing, one's environment, etc. will have a definite adverse effect on one's mental state and alertness - it will actually make you tired. While it is not a substitute for adequate rest when you need it, remaining interested and avoiding being bored does help one to remain alert.

I would never suggest that individuals are capable of staying up for the amounts of time mentioned above and driving safely - I was in an office environment, working on a computer - and consequently posed no threat to the safety of others. It merely serves as an illustration of what an individual is potentially capable of, when necessity demands it.

To assume that 11 hours is the maximum that anyone can safely drive, in any circumstances, is in my estimation an unreasonable view - since, as a consequence of being arbitrary, it ignores data which are relevant to the question of at what specific point is one unsafe ?
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
One thing I have to bring into this discussion, because I have heard about it repeatedly from friends who drive for other carriers than mine:

There are carriers who have definite rules as far as what they will permit in dispatched miles and hours of service for unregulated drivers. Well, at least they do when it is convenient for them ..... other times, not so much .....

In theory, one might think this is a good idea - it sounds really great - it (supposedly) promotes safety, and is, in fact, theoretically safer than a carrier that doesn't impose such constraints, right ?

Newsflash: This isn't necessarily true - and quite often doesn't work out to be true in actual practice.

The particular carrier I'm referring to (whose name I will not mention) claims it is being done for safety reasons - although most of their drivers that I have talked to seem to think that it has less to do with safety, than with shielding the carrier from liability.

The problem with this sort of thing (and laws and regulations generally) is when you have hard and fast rules, which are then blindly implemented without regard to the specifics of the particular, unique circumstances to which they are being applied.

This is in fact essentially mindless and robotic - because it substitutes an arbitrary rule for observation of specific circumstances, rational thought, and common sense. Rules do not think - nor do they have the ability to look and see - human beings however, do.

This can cause situations to occur where a driver is more or less forced to drive (if he wants the load) at times when he really needs to stop and rest - because, due to the inflexible way that Dispatch is forced by management to calculate whether the load is "on-time" or not, it will appear that the driver is running late, if they stop early in the load to take a rest break - despite having more than adequate time to realistically complete the load on time.

Such an arrangement is clearly not in the best interests of the driver, the company, nor the motoring public. It is utterly stupid.
 
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DannyD

Veteran Expediter
I'm also against the 1 size fits all. If the company has to make some kind of rule to keep the Feds from instituting a stronger rule, then I'd hope the company would say 2 hours of driving for every hour of sleep. (ie, 8 hours sleep per 24 hour day)
 

blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I would have to agree with Rlent about the fact that blindly inplimented "one size fits all" rules can cause drivers to operate in an unsafe manner. For instance, if a driver knows that he has to complete a thousand mile run within a 16 hour time frame, he might need to speed, or skip a 30 minute power nap in a "mad dash" attempt to beat the dooms day clock.

I have had to speed on loads in the past (with said un-named carrier) in order to keep ahead of the computer generated 45 mile an hour average. I did this in order to build up enough computer generated time to allow for a 5 hour sleep break. Also, if a driver is forced to take a break when he is not tired (this also happened to me on one occasion with the un-named carrier) it can cause an accident.

I was 200 miles away from Dallas one night, dispatch insisted that I take a 4 hour break. Well, I told dispatch that I was not tired and could easily get through Dallas before the morning rush hour. Dispatch did not listen to me and forced me to take a 4 hour break "then in the middle of the break someone from another part of dispatch called me and asked why my truck was stopped!" Needless to say, I did not get a good nights rest and had to fight off drowseyness for 200 miles and ended up getting caught in 50 miles of morning traffic.

I was upset but thankful that I arrived at my destination in one piece and that my load was on time and both dispatch and the customer were happy. This kind of enforcement should never happen. Each individual driver should exercise discretion over his own breaks. Every driver should know his limitations. I have left Los Angeles at 2:30 in the afternoon on a friday and took my first rest break somewhere in Des Moines Iowa. I never knodded off one time. But I had woken up at 12 noon from 12 hours of rest and immediately picked up and hit the road. But, some drivers do not know their own limitations and get into serious accidents and that ruins it for the good drivers.

Look, driving is what we do for a living. Obviously we are masters of or craft of we'd all have bad DAC reports and suspended drivers liscenses. I have been driving commercially since 2002. I have over 2 years of experience in a tractor trailer and over 3 years of experience in a cargo van. My driving record is clean and I have never been in an accident cept for the deer that I hit the other night. I have never filed an insurance claim. That is more luck than anything else, but it is a reflection of my love for the line of work that I am in. As with me, most drivers know when they can push themselves to the limit and when it is time to pull over and shut down.
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If a driver has to complete a 1000 mile run in a 16 hour window then he's driving for a company that's part of the problem not part of the solution. That's a 62.5 mph average speed, impossible to do legally and safely, impossible. OK, maybe in 0.56% of cases it will involve enough distance out west in 80mph speed limits to be feasible but 99 and 44/100 percent of the time it's impossible.

Dispatch can suggest stuff to me but unless they can reach over and turn the key of my truck off or turn it off electronically from the office I'll thank them for their concern and advice and let them know I'll be doing what's in my best safety interest.
 

blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I just did 1036 miles in 17 hours. That was taking my time. I stopped for a 30 minute lunch break. Completing 1000 miles in 16 hours is very easy to do. But you're right, it can't be done by adhering to the speed limits.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Rlent ..
you know and I know ..it has little to do with safety and it is all about "liability" a carrier can say."Hey look at how safe we run"
If a driver gets into an accident they can take the high road because they've C.T.A.

In all your years on this forum how many CV drivers have you heard that has ditched it? Because of lack of sleep...
How many stories have their been about CV's had horrific accident?
 

CharlesD

Expert Expediter
I just did 1036 miles in 17 hours. That was taking my time. I stopped for a 30 minute lunch break. Completing 1000 miles in 16 hours is very easy to do. But you're right, it can't be done by adhering to the speed limits.

You have to watch what you admit to around here. You never know if one of your dispatchers is reading. :)

Anyway, I agree with the idea that you can't have one size fits all rules. I just did 2000 miles in 48 hours with adequate rest and delivered on time. That's usually a good time frame to look for. If you have 24 hours for each 1000 miles, you can get enough rest and still make the delivery on time or even a little early at times. A lot of the loads I see on boards that are asking for teams fall within that time frame. You figure doing the speed limit and not stopping too much, you can log 1000 miles with 18 hours of driving time. That gives you 6 hours for your stops and getting some sleep. If you drive a bit faster you can cut that driving time down somewhat, but either way you look at it, there's enough time in there for a bit of sleep. A lot depends on how much sleep your body needs. Some people can operate well on 5 or 6 hours and some people don't do well with less than 8. I rarely sleep more than 6 hours, unless I've just done a long run and then I'll crash for around 10.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Dispatch can suggest stuff to me but unless they can reach over and turn the key of my truck off or turn it off electronically from the office I'll thank them for their concern and advice and let them know I'll be doing what's in my best safety interest.

Leo,
You hit it on the head.

The problem is that many of the people driving vans feel that 'dispatch' is in control. Some even go so far as to think that if they refuse the load, the company may not give them another.

This mind set seems to be as much of a problem as the idea that vans should not be regulated. Sure it seems that when someone gets into that van, the work is easy and they can make a half a million doing the work but look when you have drivers boasting that they are doing 700 mile back to back runs with 4 hours sleep for a week, it then comes then down to safety of everyone, the lack of professionalism of the driver and the lack of concern from the company.

There are limits, one size fits all for a reason and should be. It is one of these things that it doesn't matter if you are driving a truck, a van or a car, the body is limited to what it can do. Many in the profession of sleep studies have determined what are these standards and they have been around for more than 50 years. When you take a sleep deprevation training, you learn how to deal with some of the limitations and how to get the right sleep under adverse conditions - like in a truck stop with an idling truck next to you that has their air governor going off every 3 minutes.

The feds and states already have on the books regulations that regulate interstate commerce, that is what we do, we work within these regulations. They can put a van out of service without justifying it to you, and they have for sleep deprevation.

There is a big liability for those who think that they can get away with little sleep, this liability comes in when something happens, when you fall asleep at the wheel and hit something or someone or hallucinate about something in the road and when you react to it cause an accident. The company has already limited their liability, they can cover their a** quickly by showing that you freely accepted the load, the shipper has no control over what happens so they are left out but you as the driver have all the responsibility and will bear the brunt of the problems. It is you that made that decision and you that, as Leo indicated "turned the key".
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg...You are in left field on this one....no one agrees with you on the "one size fits all"

It is almost the same premise of telling a solo straight he has to drive his spell....and can't stop the clock...he maybe tired for some reason but he must go on..or stop and be late...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Greg...You are in left field on this one....no one agrees with you on the "one size fits all"

It is almost the same premise of telling a solo straight he has to drive his spell....and can't stop the clock...he maybe tired for some reason but he must go on..or stop and be late...

Actually OVM there may be a bunch of people who agree with me. I am not really just talking about a regulatory thing but a common sense thing and makes the difference between a professional driver and a fricken yahoo cowboy.

By the way the common sense thing works both ways, vans or trucks, so it is not limited to the precisous van.

A lot of people, especially drivers for owners seem to be the ones who don't like to refuse things. Some don't even think about what they are taking on, others calculate the load and even if it comes out as a bad situation, they still accept it because it pays good. This is why I am starting to think that companies should only put Owner/Operators into vans, not owners with Drivers.

As a solo, I have no problems logging and keeping the thing moving, to be exact I get a lot of offers that teams can't even run> The shipper has unreaslitic expectation to get the load to the their customer while the intake agent doesn't tell them No in fear they will go somewhere else. I had one offer a couple weeks ago that should have gone on a cargo jet, I calculated the drive time rate to be at 80mph, impossible for even a van but someone covered that load. I have a feeling a van took it, even though it was 6000lbs.

It seems, like other things in this industry, safety is forgotten and the need for those dollars are too important to say NO.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
We don't need big brother with a one size fits all mentality...
Give us some common sense and some flexibility is all we are saying....I don't drive when I am too tired...I don't go by studies or by what others tell me I need...My body will tell me when is the time to run or not....
I WILL say no...I do the right thing...

You want regulation/ rules/ chooses diminished by a higher power? I don't think you do...
In a straight truck you have no choice...it is already there...

WE are not inviting regulation into our vans.

Pretty soon they'll be saying we can't drive safely in 6" of snow because some study said so....
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You've been a real Gentleman with your response...

"left field" was just down right sugar-coating

At least OVM....... you drive a Van.

Where I come from...out in left field means....no one wants to play left field...hence you are alone out there...;)
 
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