van line haul distance

panther_art

Expert Expediter
I have done a few 1000 milers in the last couple of weeks, in the first 12 hrs I get as many miles under my belt as I can so I can do a 5 hr break and still have time to safely do the rest of the load. If anything happens to cause me to lose time during the first 12 hrs then I will ask to be swaped.
I knew a few young drivers that where doing back to back 800 - 900 mile loads and how they got away with it I don't know. They flunked there last drug test so they are no longer driving as far as I know.
As far as I am concerned who ever was on safety should not of let this of happened.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If there is a minimum of 5 hours for a break for sleeping then 1000 miles is probably doable in more cases than not. My original post was intended to get some sort of consensus on maximum distance without a suitable rest break en route.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'm with Highway and the others on here that say no arbitrary limits - every person truly is different.

I know our regulars are top shelf but as a whole do you think it's safe to have no limitations?
It really depends on the responsibility level of the drivers that carriers contract:

Responsible drivers, who know their own limitations, that have a fairly high degree of personal ethics and integrity, and are willing to act on that = safe.

Irresponsible drivers, well ..... not so much :rolleyes:

I know of a handful of guys I wouldn't want to be within 100 miles of because they'd take back to back 700-800 mile runs with no break time in between if offered.
Same here, sorta .... but not because they would take back to back 700 - 800 mile runs (something I have done, and have done quite safely) - but because they have done it while knowing full well they would not be able to do so safely.

That's irresponsible - and it is unethical.

So, should there be some structured system in place regulating everyone because of the few who would abuse things if given the chance?
No, there shouldn't - it is a penalizing the majority who are responsible, for the actions of a few, that happen to be irresponsible. In practice, such efforts rarely, if ever, solve the problem that they were intended to address - and often they have unintended consequences, which are not desirable.

Would you support the banning and confiscation of all guns from all citizens, just because there are a (relatively) small number of criminals and whackjobs out there that might do something insane ?

I certainly wouldn't ......

What has regulation of our industry really given us ? Has it truly addressed the issue of the vast majority of unsafe drivers - which are not even commercial drivers ?

We are one of the few industries where the income of individuals is being artificially capped, as a consequence of the arbitrary limitations on the hours we are permitted to work.

If so, what's sensible?
Therein lies the real problem with regulation - any regulation, in any aspect of industry or civil life - the matter of deciding who gets to determine the answer to those types of questions:

Owner-operators and drivers ?

Carriers ?

Some Federal apparatchik, who's "professional driving experience" consists of a one or two hour commute, twice daily, from Northern VA into DC five days a week ?

A member of PATT ? (Parents Against Tired Truckers)

It is good for you to raise the question for discussion however - because ultimately, the slippery slope to the reduction of freedom (through regulation) comes about from the failure of an industry to police itself. That largely boils down to a failure of personal responsibility on the part of individuals.

Rules and regulations are really only necessary where personal responsibility fails.

And the bottomline is that no amount of rules and regulations will really ever handle the issue of those that are indeed truly irresponsible - those folks will seek to break and violate the rules anyways.

Having no personal rules of their own, they aren't going to abide by someone else's - if there is any way that they can avoid it.

The solution to the problem lies not in limiting the freedom of everyone to "solve" a problem, which in fact, originates only from a few - it lies either in raising the personal ethics, integrity, and respsonsility level of all individuals - particularly those who are prone to being less responsible.
 
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chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
As i read this thread I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone asked how we would feel with the government regulatiing guns more then they do now because of the recless few....thank you Randy for asking...Most all hear complain about how much the government is in our lives and we need more personal responcibility...but some are ready to give up that same responcibility to the government in this issue.....:confused:

I guess if it saves one life huh...........:rolleyes:
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Most all hear complain about how much the government is in our lives and we need more personal responcibility...but some are ready to give up that same responcibility to the government in this issue.....
Rather ironic, isn't it ? :D
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
driver responsibility? there are dispatchers who do not care. their attitude is....you accepted the load now finish it.




(strong words on this subject that will not appear in this forum)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
driver responsibility? there are dispatchers who do not care. their attitude is....you accepted the load now finish it.
Jack,

That is true - and I can't argue with your point. In the instances where Dispatch is informed the driver is incapable of completing the load safely, a dispatcher would be irresponsible to suggest to that the driver continue on. That would be unethical.

However - it is ultimately the driver's responsibility to ensure when they accept a load, that they are capable of completing it safely.

For instance, I know Panther has words to this effect in their load offers, that a driver has to agree to, when accepting a load. The point of it, ideally, should be to make the driver responsible for his own condition, and his own actions (as in accepting a load) - from a corporate perspective, it is likely being done for other reasons (shielding the company from potential liability)

If one has any doubt or reservations whatsoever that one is not capable of completing a load safely, then it would be incumbent on that driver to turn down the load - unless they had made other arrangements at the outset (such as swapping, updated delivery times, etc.), when they accepted the load.

One can't dump off the initial, primary responsibility onto someone else - if you can't do the load, and do it safely - then don't accept it.

I realize that there may be rare circumstances where something may occur - such as a driver starting to feel sick while on a load - and under those circumstances, Dispatch should arrange a swap, no questions asked. It is also up to the driver to hold their position, when circumstances change (delay in getting loaded, traffic delay, whatever) to insist that Dispatch do the correct thing - such as getting a revised delivery time - that will allow the driver to complete the load safely.

Ultimately however, it's up to the driver - there is no possible way for someone on the other end of telephone line or Qualcomm to accurately assess the physical and mental condition of another to perform a specific task on a consistent basis.

It is up to the driver to know - and honestly assess - their own personal fitness and capabilities to complete any task - and that is as it should be.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
There needs to be rules and laws to protect us from ourselves .......
Yeah ..... try contemplating that one in-depth for a little awhile ...... and taking it to it's ultimate conclusion ....

If you are truly of that mindset, then you should be very pleased with the current crop of folks up there in DC (along with the current resident of the White House) ..... and all such folks who attracted to having control over the lives of others - because that, in fact, is largely what they are all about.

In all honesty, I consider such a statement to be the height of irresponsibility - because the premise is that you, as an individual, can't trust your own self - so you must cede authority over to someone else who can be.

I suspect however, that is actually not what you are really saying :D - I'd rather imagine that what you are saying really is that you don't trust your fellows - so you would prefer that someone have authority over them.

to say that there are people that can run 1000 miles with no problems to me says that they haven't had a problem YET.
I would venture to say that there are people out that can't run 500 miles safely - my neighbor is one of them - driving hardly any distance at will cause him to start to fall asleep - on as little as the drive home from work.

From a public safety standpoint, he probably shouldn't even have a license ... and if he were truly responsible, he just wouldn't drive ..... either that, or find a solution to his particular problem.

I would also venture to say that there individuals who can easily drive 1000 miles (assuming adequate rest prior to the start of the trip)

I think it is arrogance in the extreme, to believe that one can truly know what another individual is capable of - when you aren't him (or her, as the case may be)

There is no way that you can convince me that you are driving with the same alertness level at 1000 miles that you have at 500 miles.
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to try (to convince you) - but of course, whether you are convinced or not, really has no bearing on whether, in fact, it is possible for some people, at some times, in some circumstances .... to be as alert at 1000 miles, as they are at 500.

There is a reason why the FMCSR's do not define "fatigue" or "fatigued" - largely it is because there is no practical, objective way to standardly measure fatigue.

Believe me - if there were, it would already be in the regs and they would be doing it.

People are individuals - they are not all the same.
 
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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There is a huge difference between the federal government illegally breaching the Constitution in regulating firearms and carriers setting a company policy regarding load offers and dispatch. I'm not talking about a federal law, although I suspect eventually vans will be given the same HOS as 10,001# and larger vehicles. I'm just asking what is sensible at a company level. I also do not believe anyone anywhere has ever done 700-800 miles on a load and then gone on to another 700-800 mile load with no break anywhere in there and done so safely. With loading, unloading, fuel stops, toilet stops, etc. that's 30 hours or so start to finish and there's no way the level of alertness etc. is equal in the last 2 hours as the first 2 hours.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You know that every company seems to have some limits but they are applied differently.

Here is something that I have had happen a few times. I was offered a load for 850 miles for my van after sitting for a day and a half, the dispatcher said "we have to cross dock the load because you are limited to 750 a day" so I still accepted the load. I got 500 miles out of it, which was ok with me until I got to the dock and help load the other van. The other van was also a solo driver who just did a 700 mile run a few hours before and was going to do the 300 more miles. I later learned that it is not written in stone at the company but rather because the driver was in good standing, they favored him over others.

Greg pretty well nailed it here.....
I call it the "flex rule" as it seems pretty flexible;)

I've been asked by some newer drivers why does dispatch when busy run me with back to back to back loads in pretty quick succession with little break:confused:
....because dispatch knows me, trusts me to tell them when thats enough as in I can't do it
...it is not really favourtism, just rare common sense with a dispatcher:rolleyes:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
....because dispatch knows me, trusts me to tell them when thats enough as in I can't do it
... just rare common sense with a dispatcher ...
Exactly .....

As an ideal, that is the way the system should operate ... based on common sense, and individuals (drivers, dispatchers) exercising personal responsibility ...... for not only the safety of themselves, but others as well, and doing the responsible thing ...... for all involved.
 
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guido4475

Not a Member
I agree with what you all are saying,But when a person has a bad 2or 3 weeks and bills are falling behind,I think if anyone in this situation was offered a long load with no swap that they would take it if it got them caught up.I HAD to run non-stop and take everything I could in 2008 to bring all my bills current from the past 2 carriers I was with.Too many broken promises, and it was my fault for listening and trusting them in the first place.I'm not bragging, and if it seems like I am, I apologize.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I agree with what you all are saying,But when a person has a bad 2or 3 weeks and bills are falling behind,I think if anyone in this situation was offered a long load with no swap that they would take it if it got them caught up.I HAD to run non-stop and take everything I could in 2008 to bring all my bills current from the past 2 carriers I was with.Too many broken promises, and it was my fault for listening and trusting them in the first place.I'm not bragging, and if it seems like I am, I apologize.

Sometimes life gets in the way and a person has to do what they do and make choices that they have to live with....fortunately no one got killed or injured.....
 

blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
There needs to be rules and laws to protect us from ourselves,to say that there are people that can run 1000 miles with no problems to me says that they haven't had a problem YET.

There is no way that you can convince me that you are driving with the same alertness level at 1000 miles that you have at 500 miles.

Lemme give you an example of how it works. Friday night I had to drive 600 miles. I was well rested from 2 days in a nice hotel room , but I kept on knodding off after the 350 mile mark. I pulled over and slept fot five hours because the load had time on it. But yesterday I left Denver at 9:AM Pacific time and arrived in Huntington Beach California at 1:00 AM. I drove over a thousand miles non-stop, with two fuel stops and one bathroom break, and I did it safely. Now, when I arrived at home, I was beat and had to sleep for a few hours. So, driving long distances should be taken on a case by case basis.
 
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jrcarroll

Expert Expediter
I know our regulars are top shelf but as a whole do you think it's safe to have no limitations? I know of a handful of guys I wouldn't want to be within 100 miles of because they'd take back to back 700-800 mile runs with no break time in between if offered. So, should there be some structured system in place regulating everyone because of the few who would abuse things if given the chance? If so, what's sensible? Maybe 1 hour break between offers per 100 miles of prior job over 300-400 miles with a max of 8-10 hours? IOW, if a 700 mile run was complete then 7 hours break before the next load and if it was a 400 mile run then 4 hours before the next load?

:cool: Should be up to each driver. His or her discretion. I started out driving a van doing GSP to El Paso in 25 hrs. with only stops for fuel and nature calls. I just completed run from G'ville, SC to Nashville then back to G'ville & another run to St Pete, then on to Miami. 36 hrs in van and 2 hrs nap. If I didn't think I could do runs like that, I'd let the boss know and try to reschedule the delivery time.

Yes there has been times when I've run 9 hrs and had to stop.

When we were with the Fed ya ran a team van same as a D truck, what hurt was the 34 hr restarts in between runs. Unless you were running locals IE: Around San Antonio or around Baton Rouge. then it was 1 run a day.
 

jrcarroll

Expert Expediter
I'm with Highway and the others on here that say no arbitrary limits - every person truly is different.


It really depends on the responsibility level of the drivers that carriers contract:

Responsible drivers, who know their own limitations, that have a fairly high degree of personal ethics and integrity, and are willing to act on that = safe.

Irresponsible drivers, well ..... not so much :rolleyes:


Same here, sorta .... but not because they would take back to back 700 - 800 mile runs (something I have done, and have done quite safely) - but because they have done it while knowing full well they would not be able to do so safely.

That's irresponsible - and it is unethical.


No, there shouldn't - it is a penalizing the majority who are responsible, for the actions of a few, that happen to be irresponsible. In practice, such efforts rarely, if ever, solve the problem that they were intended to address - and often they have unintended consequences, which are not desirable.

Would you support the banning and confiscation of all guns from all citizens, just because there are a (relatively) small number of criminals and whackjobs out there that might do something insane ?

I certainly wouldn't ......

What has regulation of our industry really given us ? Has it truly addressed the issue of the vast majority of unsafe drivers - which are not even commercial drivers ?

We are one of the few industries where the income of individuals is being artificially capped, as a consequence of the arbitrary limitations on the hours we are permitted to work.


Therein lies the real problem with regulation - any regulation, in any aspect of industry or civil life - the matter of deciding who gets to determine the answer to those types of questions:

Owner-operators and drivers ?

Carriers ?

Some Federal apparatchik, who's "professional driving experience" consists of a one or two hour commute, twice daily, from Northern VA into DC five days a week ?

A member of PATT ? (Parents Against Tired Truckers)

It is good for you to raise the question for discussion however - because ultimately, the slippery slope to the reduction of freedom (through regulation) comes about from the failure of an industry to police itself. That largely boils down to a failure of personal responsibility on the part of individuals.

Rules and regulations are really only necessary where personal responsibility fails.

And the bottomline is that no amount of rules and regulations will really ever handle the issue of those that are indeed truly irresponsible - those folks will seek to break and violate the rules anyways.

Having no personal rules of their own, they aren't going to abide by someone else's - if there is any way that they can avoid it.

The solution to the problem lies not in limiting the freedom of everyone to "solve" a problem, which in fact, originates only from a few - it lies either in raising the personal ethics, integrity, and respsonsility level of all individuals - particularly those who are prone to being less responsible.

AMEN! Totally agree
 

TheOGExpediterGuy

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I agree with that last post BLIZZARD wrote, because if I am woken up or givin a Long run within the first 4 or 5 hours of me being awake I garuntee you I can do 1000 miles safely almost straight through!!! Now if Ive been up all day and I get a 1000 mile trip Ill usually get at least 5 or 6 hours of Leway time...So If I do get a little tired on the trip I can pull over and take about a 3 or 4 hour nap!!! But then again maybe im just YOUNG AND DUMB??? Government already restricts enough as it is, whats next??? NO GUNS, GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE, Look here is the truth 100%

Guns Kill People, just like Pencils Make People Spell Words Wrong, Just like Gas Pedals Make People Drive Over the Speed Limit, an Like Spoons and Forks Made Rosie O'Donnell FAT??? WRONG ANSWER, you need to know your limits and stay within your limits NOUGH' SAID!!!:D
 

piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Ok...and this is an honest question

You guys who run the supermiler trips, how do you know that you are tired enough that you need to take a nap while en route?
 

Dakota

Veteran Expediter
Van drivers, there's a lot of debate on companies that set a specific limit on single transit line haul distance. Comments suggest at least some people believe there should be no restriction at all so van drivers what sort of rules are sensible? How many miles in total, deadhead and line haul combined, should a van driver be given without a break? At the end of that long run, whatever the maximum length is, how long should the minimum break time be before the next load offer and run?

Well, I know you probably don'tneed to log but if you follow the logging rules 11 hours driving 14 total hours and then 10 hours off
I figure my average MPH is 55 so I can legally do 600 in a day
I am sure you could drive farther if you want, but 600 makes for a pretty long day already
 
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