Trucks Not Moving From Pumps

[cheri1122]

I'm not entirely sure it's interpenetrated my brain yet, but I think it means he likes adding to the "WTF are all those rules about, anyway" confusion.
And maybe that drivers should just shut up and deal with the law - but if bad laws are written, someone needs to point it out, IMO. Otherwise, the writers of bad law don't have any more of a clue than when they wrote the asinine laws.

 

[zorry]

I'll read it again in the am.
Moose always makes sense.
Except on April 1st.
I checked my calendar.
We're safe for seven months.

 

[ATeam]

like i posted here before, the 'adverse conditions allowance', is pretty clear about this. if a driver is running into unexpected delay in traffic, all he have to do is flag the word 'adverse', & continue to the next available parking spot, which will void the violation.
i can post the link once more, just ask.
this is true not only for the 30/11/14/70, but also for other appointments.
but you HAVE to flag it when it happen.

I researched the regs myself and checked with our carrier's logs compliance department. The adverse conditions exception cannot be used regarding the 30 minute break. If you do not take the break within the eight-hour period, you are in violation, period. If you are prevented by adverse conditions from taking that break within the eight-hour time period, you are still in violation.

For traffic delays and extending your driving time beyond the 11 hour limit, the adverse conditions exception applies the same as before.

 

[zorry]

I also believe the adverse conditions cannot extend the 14.
I wouldn't use it to try to extend the 70.
I'd say it's only good to extend the 11.

Not as helpful because you only have 13.5 to work with in a 14 hour day.

 

[moose]

so what you are saying is that the reference to 352. at the adverse conditions law only apply to a part of 352. regardless of the FACT that the new HOS are clearly a part of 352.
you also say that unexpected delay that cannot be predicted BY DISPATCH cannot be used, regardless of the FACT that the adverse condition clearly permit those.
great research.

 

[zorry]

All I'm saying is my interpretation is the adverse rule will only extend your driving period. Nothing else.

And since the 30 min break gives you a 13.5 hour workday, often you won't get two extra hours.
Example: 14 hrs - 30 min break, minus 15 min PTI, minus one hour at shipper leaves you 12.25 on your workday. Get tied up and you'll only get an extra 1,25 hrs to drive. NOT TWO extra hours.

Any experts care to comment ?

And I say you cannot extend your 70 by driving.

 

[ATeam]

I'm not sure, Moose, if you and I are addressing the same point. So to be clear, let me say that I am talking about the newly-required 30 minute break. The CFR 352 rules you cite are talking about driving time. These are two different topics.

Again, I have researched the rules and checked with our carrier's log compliance people to verify my interpretation of the rules. While it is not a pleasant fact, it remains a fact nevertheless. That is, the adverse conditions exception that applies to driving time does not apply to the 30 minute break.

As a practical matter, this means, for example, that if you are on duty or driving for say six hours, and you plan to take your 30 minute break at the next rest area, but adverse conditions develop before you get there that prevent you from taking your 30 minute break within the mandated eight-hour period, you would be in violation. The adverse conditions might be something like the freeway being closed by a major accident, trapping you in stopped traffic for more than two hours.

There are no exceptions to the 30 minute break within eight hours rule. If circumstances develop that are out of your control that prevent you from taking your required break, you are in violation. There is nothing right or fair about it, but that's the way it is.

 

[moose]

good morning.
unless you can provide a link to an CFR other then 352, where the mandatory break is mention- you are wrong.
having said that, your compliance department can restrict your carrier drivers in exceed of the law. 352 is the minimum requirement, heck they can restrict you to 3 hours a day drive time if they feel like. that dose not mean they know how to read the green book.

 

[ATeam]

good morning.
unless you can provide a link to an CFR other then 352, where the mandatory break is mention- you are wrong.

Actually, Moose, it works the other way around. If you cannot show me in the regulations that the adverse conditions exception specifically applies to the 30 minute break, it does not apply.

What my carrier told me was not carrier policy. It was an interpretation of the HOS rules that agrees with my own. Our carrier has no special or extra policy regarding the 30 minute break. It simply tells its contractors to follow the rule.

 

[cheri1122]

With all due respect, I disagree with the Safety Dept's interpretation. The 30 minutes is to be taken after 8 hrs drive time, which puts it under the 'adverse conditions' umbrella for exceptions.
Under the scenario cited, the driver should not be found in violation of drive time hours.
Of course, it all depends on who is interpreting the rules at the time a 'violation' is alleged.

 

[layoutshooter]

With all due respect, I disagree with the Safety Dept's interpretation. The 30 minutes is to be taken after 8 hrs drive time, which puts it under the 'adverse conditions' umbrella for exceptions.
Under the scenario cited, the driver should not be found in violation of drive time hours.
Of course, it all depends on who is interpreting the rules at the time a 'violation' is alleged.

I am not sure what you mean by the 30 minutes is taken AFTER 8 hours of drive time. The rule is NOT only based on drive time but total hours worked and the break must be taken PRIOR to the 8 hour clock expiring. We start getting warnings 1 hour, at the 7 hour mark. Once you have surpassed 8 hours of driving/on duty time, you are in violation. We can see our 8 hours ticking away the instant we go on duty to start a shift.

 

[cheri1122]

Is what I'm saying: you get warnings at 7 hours because the break is mandated according to hours driven. That puts it into the same category as the 11 [um, 10.5] hours, for which the adverse rule applies.
Of course it's not in the rulebook yet, it's a new rule.

 

[layoutshooter]

Is what I'm saying: you get warnings at 7 hours because the break is mandated according to hours driven. That puts it into the same category as the 11 [um, 10.5] hours, for which the adverse rule applies.
Of course it's not in the rulebook yet, it's a new rule.

I don't believe that is correct. I can be on duty, never drive, and STILL have to take that half hour break. I have set, on duty, for 3 hours and only have 5 hours left showing on my "break clock".

 

[cheri1122]

Correction: the clock begins with hours 'on duty', but it's a rare time when that isn't the same time [except for the PTI] as hours driving, so it's basically hours driven.

 

[LDB]

Is there any reason you can't take the 30 minutes after 2 hours of driving or 4 or 5.5 hours or even after driving from the dock to the far end of the shipper's parking lot since technically you've driven?

 

[layoutshooter]

Is there any reason you can't take the 30 minutes after 2 hours of driving or 4 or 5.5 hours or even after driving from the dock to the far end of the shipper's parking lot since technically you've driven?

You can take it any time within the 8 hour window. We TRY not to take it until there is LESS than 2 hours showing on the clock. Otherwise it is possible to run into a situation where a second 30 minute break will need to be taken.

 

[layoutshooter]

Correction: the clock begins with hours 'on duty', but it's a rare time when that isn't the same time [except for the PTI] as hours driving, so it's basically hours driven.

I guess how rare it is only depends on your operation. We have seen LOTS of "on duty" time click off that clock. Sitting at shippers waiting on freight is common.

 

[cheri1122]

I hadn't thought of being 'on duty' for hours without moving, as it doesn't ever happen to me. I go on duty when I do the PTI, and drive immediately, so the clock begins when I begin driving [minus 15 minutes].
I guess it's different for teams, and loads that need babysat.
For me, I would consider the adverse conditions exception to apply if I were unable to get to a parking place because of an unexpected event enroute.
I just hope I never have to find out the hard way.

 

[cheri1122]

Is there any reason you can't take the 30 minutes after 2 hours of driving or 4 or 5.5 hours or even after driving from the dock to the far end of the shipper's parking lot since technically you've driven?

There's no reason you can't [though as LOS notes, you want to wait until at least 4 hrs in], but there are reasons why you might not want to, like avoiding mega city rush hour. Or there may be a personal reason for wanting to take it in a particular place [like BBQ!] that is somewhere right around the 8 hour mark, in which case you risk running over.
That's what's wrong: no flexibility.

 

[roadeyes]

Yes it must be within the 8 hours. Driving or not driving is irrelevant its 8 hours from coming on duty not after 8 hours of driving. Unfortunately that makes it harder for the live load crowd to work that 30 minutes in than it does for the drop and hook crowd because even if you book live load time as off duty, it still does not reset or extend your daily window clock in which that 30 minute period must be taken.