To Davekc

[mjolnir131]

If you were a true Anarchist you would be opposed to ALL forms of government and ALL taxes. You dissapoint me!! LOL! Taxes are one of the halmarks of government, you should hate them. Layoutshooter

Actually he is a textbook anarchist anarchy is not a permanent state of being it's used to create panic and disorder so that those that want the power can move in easier that is exactingly how Hitler did it.to misquote Homer thats Homer S not Homer of the Iliad. They are the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

 

[greg334]

....tax breaks for the rich.....

When ever I hear that term used in a deflection, I know the person saying it is clueless about taxes and how the economy works.

I wish they would learn to read and absorb information about the subject instead of regurgitating the same old garbage that others say.

 

[Pilgrim]

After reading in this forum the never ending story about how evil taxes are and see the now famous gospel "can't tax yourself into prosperity" as the prevalent dogma, I received an unexpected breath of fresh air; after a few days of throwing buckets of data and thoughts back and forth between Greg and I (which was fun, was as good for you as it was for me? ) out of the blue comes Dave and with an open mind and asks for just one example where taxes and prosperity are in some way interconnected, just one country and he would be willing to consider the idea as plausible.



Well Dave, an open mind is the mark of a great man. I might not convince you but at least you are willing to look into it and that alone deserves my respect. So here we go:


The Human Development Index combines normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development—a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc. The basic use of HDI is to measure a country's development.

Source: The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) "groups 30 member countries sharing a commitment to the market economy. The OECD plays a prominent role in fostering governance in corporate activity. It helps governments to ensure the responsiveness of key economic areas with sectoral monitoring. By deciphering emerging issues and identifying policies that work, it helps policy-makers adopt strategic orientations."



In the first part are the 15 most developed countries in the world, in green the top 3.

In the second part are this same countries from most to least taxed, in red the 3 with higher taxes.



I can give you not 1 but 13 instances in which higher taxes not only don't interfere with the development of a society but correlate in grand measure with its prosperity. It is remarkable that only one of the countries (Japan) that have a superior development than us pays lower taxes and the other 13 have a higher rate.



It is not rocket science, just have to look for it with... an open mind.

I guess I'm late to the party on this thread, but after reading all this stuff I'm still confused. Since when is the UN a credible source for anything? We've witnessed for years what an ineffective organization they are, being run by banana republics and communist dictatorships. The Oil For Food program was a prime example of what happens when corruption and incompetence are combined and given control of money and resources. How about their Human Rights Council - A fine group indeed to represent the downtrodden populations of the world.

anarchist –noun A person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.A person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

Why would a self-proclaimed anarchist be in favor of high taxes that go hand in glove with more government control as seen in European socialism?

For anyone who prefers the economies and societies of Denmark or France to that of the USA, I suggest they do a little light reading to catch up with their currrent conditions. In addition to their economic problems, their social maladies are common knowledge for those that have seen the results of their lax immigration policies that have lead to inflated muslim populations. Their entire cultures are being threatened by these invaders who insist that everyone else adapt to accomodate them and their religious beliefs.

The simple truth is that high taxes on "the rich" that are used to "spread around" in the Obama sense have never been successful in creating economic prosperity in a free society. The money you make from your productivity should be yours to do with as you see fit. You should be paid a fair price for providing a good service, and the percentage that goes to the government for their services should be minimal. The idea that government knows how to more effectively spend your money than you do is just nonsense.

 

[MrGautama]

anarchist –noun A person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.[/SIZE]A person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

Holly cow pilgrim, when I read your post I thought I could find an even more outrageous definition of anarchist so I went to Conservapedia thinking I could top your nonsense but not even there I could get a better misuse of the idea:


"Anarchism is a political philosophy advocating the removal of the State and the establishment of a society without government. The term is of Greek origin (coming from the word "αναρχία" (anarchia), meaning "without rulers".) Anarchists oppose the use of prisons. Anarchists tend to oppose any form of government, but can be found expressing support for direct democracy, freedom of speech, de-centralism, individualism and anti-authoritarianism.

Anarchists generally oppose what Noam Chomsky has termed "illegitimate authority": stopping a child from running into a busy street would be an act of legitimate authority. The government and other coercive entities are considered illegitimate. "

I have to admit it, you have talent...

 

[MrGautama]

If you were a true Anarchist you would be opposed to ALL forms of government and ALL taxes. You dissapoint me!! LOL! Taxes are one of the halmarks of government, you should hate them. Layoutshooter

Good call Layout, it's a matter of practicallity. I mean we are going to evolve in to a anarchist society the same day Pilgrim, Steady Eddy and TNHawk get together, put on glittery matching pink T shirts and go get their tongues pierced!!! .

I'm sure I'll be dead three times over by then so it's best to work within the limits of reality and push for an improvement of what we have for now. It's something I argue with other anarchists but in many cases I get confronted with the old "Anarchy or nothing", to which I think is going to be nothing then!!. Compromises, I believe, are necessary when outside of the theoretical world.

A prime example is the foolish idea of having Nader run for president and take so many votes away from the Democrats that we get stuck with Bush. A compromise at that time would have been the right answer but the "all or nothings" got in the way, I bet they are sorry now!.

 

[MrGautama]

Actually he is a textbook anarchist anarchy is not a permanent state of being it's used to create panic and disorder so that those that want the power can move in easier that is exactingly how Hitler did it.to misquote Homer thats Homer S not Homer of the Iliad. They are the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

It would be easy to just disregard your post as just nonsense but it would be unfair because I understand that Anarchy as an alternative to the way societies work today is not main stream information.

Anarchism is an inmenslly rich and varied universe of thought that finds it's unity in the rejection of most authoritarian institutions that can't prove their validity, among the ones not consider valid is government. My particular tendency is the one that in my opinion affords the most individual freedoms without violating the freedoms of others; Socialist Anarchism or Libertarian socialism is the tendency I favor that works using direct democracy, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, workers' councils, etc.

Anarchism is the least experimented society model, the only real example we have is in Spain in the 30's but it was crushed by Franco's fascist forces during the Spanish civil war (fascists and anarchist are irreconcilable enemies not one the precursor of the other).

I see a lot of animosity against the government as an institution in this forum, did you guys know that there is such a thing called "Anarcho-Capitalism", something to look in to if you like Capitalism but hate government.

 

[layoutshooter]

If pracitcality is driving you why would you choose to side with more, rather than, less government? Higher rather than lower taxes? More rather than less regulations? I fail to understand your logic. Layoutshooter

 

[aristotle]

Mr G... I imagine you find hypocrisy repugnant. A true anarchist seeks dissolution of government. Can we rest assured you seek overthrow of the current Obama administration as well? Are you a bonafide anarchist or, as I suspect, just another liberal malcontent?

 

[MrGautama]

If pracitcality is driving you why would you choose to side with more, rather than, less government? Higher rather than lower taxes? More rather than less regulations? I fail to understand your logic. Layoutshooter

That is an excellent question Layout, I think it's a case of choosing the lesser evil.

What are my real choices here?:

1.- Be a "purist" and live in lala land only theorizing and dreaming of how great it could be and let the carnage and destruction reign.

2.- Accept that brutal and uncontrolled Capitalism is the only way possible for our primitive society. Or worst even... close my eyes and allow to be convinced that it's the only way humans can function because "is in their nature", and accept the inevitability of Social Darwinism.

3.- Understand that in my lifetime I'll have to function in a Capitalist system and work to lessen the damage that it inherently produces by choosing to support the most progressive ideas and institutions within the realm of current reality.




- I imagine that the brightest are better suited to choose #1 and work in the theoretical field where they can offer a better contribution if so they choose to.


- Number two for me is morally unacceptable, for me my fellow human beings suffering is real and not something I can choose to just change the channel and get it off my mind when sporadically I'm confronted with it on TV.

I as a member of the human race find unacceptable to have 9 to 12 million children dieing every year of malnutrition and curable deceases around the world because "the markets" have no variable that accounts for that.

I can't be an accomplice of the deterioration of the quality of life of my fellow citizens because they have been reduced to an "input" and an "expense" in neoclassical economics.

I can't be a willing participant in the degradation of the very ecosystem that keep us alive, unfortunately I am forced participate in the destruction due to way the market restricts my freedom of choice to only what is beneficial to it. I see many worried about the debt that we'll force upon our grandchildren; never mind the debt... at this pace they will be the witnesses of the extinction of humankind and they will be pretty p**sed about it, specially with the ones that resisted progress.


- Well, for me is the third option. Now if a shift in human understanding of it's current state comes along due to the power of collective reasoning I'll be ready to push for a higher goal but for now I have to concentrate in resisting the worst of the options.



Why do I choose bigger government?, simple,

-Capitalism and weak government equals slavery.

-The example set by the current most successful and advanced societies correlates directly with the level of involvement of their governments.


Surely for most fundamentalists it would be good and convenient to see my kind just retreat and disengage because of the current impossibility of our vision, well no such luck with me.

It is said that everybody has a price, some choose to support all the atrocities and destruction with their utter apathy and blind obedience for the remote chance of one day becoming elite and a part of the concentration of power; for my part my conscience has a much higher price and as of today I haven't received any offer worth of consideration.

 

[MrGautama]

Mr G... I imagine you find hypocrisy repugnant. A true anarchist seeks dissolution of government. Can we rest assured you seek overthrow of the current Obama administration as well? Are you a bonafide anarchist or, as I suspect, just another liberal malcontent?

Mr A... I am not seeking the overthrow of anything... well, maybe the only abusive individual overthrow I've been planning for a while is that of the little quadrupedal furry dictator that insists in overtaking my leg space at night on my bed, but besides that no overthrow around here. Nice bait though!.

Let's use a wiser choice of words; if the radicals divide forces with the liberals at this stage it would be only to the benefit of the centers of power and not in the best interest of our society. So if you ask me if I want Obama gone my answer is no. Actually I'm very happy he is the president and consider his election a huge step forward for the progressive movement of our country (which includes liberals and radicals). Progress is a journey not a leap.

 

[layoutshooter]

SO, you think that a man who associates with murderers and terrorists is a good choice for President? You then also must have enjoyed the work that Stalin and the Soviets did when they murdered over 25 million people. Obama supported thier work. He must have, he hangs around with people who did and you are who you hang with. Why do so many in this country have NO idea in the world what the left did over the last 70 years? Obama and his kind are disgusting examples of sub-humans. They WILL kill many over the next several years. Will you revel in the deaths that they cause? When they start after those of us who they detest?

You know, if you just hate it so much here and hate our way of life and Constitution, why are you here?

I just no longer understand. The idea that ANYONE would back a baby killing, terrorist supporting racist is beyond me.

I kinda give up. I am SOOO glad am I almost 60. I most likely won't live to see most of the "lefts" next round of exterminations.

Why do you want this? There are many un-occupied islands around the world where you can live without the interference of a government. I thought those who followed Budda were AGAINST violence, guess I was wrong. Layoutshooter

 

[MrGautama]

SO, you think that a man who associates with murderers and terrorists is a good choice for President? You then also must have enjoyed the work that Stalin and the Soviets did when they murdered over 25 million people. Obama supported thier work. He must have, he hangs around with people who did and you are who you hang with. Why do so many in this country have NO idea in the world what the left did over the last 70 years? Obama and his kind are disgusting examples of sub-humans. They WILL kill many over the next several years. Will you revel in the deaths that they cause? When they start after those of us who they detest?

You know, if you just hate it so much here and hate our way of life and Constitution, why are you here?

I just no longer understand. The idea that ANYONE would back a baby killing, terrorist supporting racist is beyond me.

I kinda give up. I am SOOO glad am I almost 60. I most likely won't live to see most of the "lefts" next round of exterminations.

Why do you want this? There are many un-occupied islands around the world where you can live without the interference of a government. I thought those who followed Budda were AGAINST violence, guess I was wrong. Layoutshooter

Calm down Layout, there is no need to revert to the old "if you don't like it then go" mantra, besides I have an answer to that but you won't like it.

-What murderers and terrorists (list of names please)?

-Why would Obama and specially me in any way be in favor of Stalin when he was the absolute opposite of what I believe in, actually Stalin in my view is worst than Hitler (something we might discuss later)?.

-Where did you get the idea that Obama in any way supported the work of Stalin?

-The deaths I see are not imaginary and are connected to the Right: US soldiers:4200 dead, 30000 wounded. Iraqi: 100000 civilians dead, untold number of wounded.

-Why try to put me (an Anarchist) and Obama (a Capitalist) in the same bag as Stalin (an Authoritarian)... Where in earth is the connection?. Do I try to bag you with Hitler, Mussolini and Franco?; sure there are many reasons to do so but it would be an insult to my own intelligence so I don't and I suggest you have some more respect for yours as well.

-There were no Anarchists or Capitalists in Stalin's regime, where did you get that idea that there were?

-"Baby killing, terrorist supporting racist is beyond me...", man, that one needs a really good explanation; this are very serious charges and I'm sure you have the documentation to support such a claim.

I am absolutely against violence Layout and there is no reason to believe otherwise. C'mon man... you can see through all the deception!!

 

[layoutshooter]

The Weathermen, they supported the leftists all over the world. Obama hangs with that bunch. They preached murder. THey and there groups murdered many in the '60's and THAT is the bunch he hangs with.

Abortion IS Baby killing. The ONLY way you can abort a baby is to KILL it! Hence, baby killer. The carnarge in our hospitals and abortion mills rivals the numbers of Hitler and Stalin.
That is what I believe.

Don't give me any garbage over the Iraqi war deaths, I did not see anyone here (except those of us who worked to stop it) stopping all the murders and deaths in Iraq for years.

Stalin WAS WAY worse than Hilter. Obama follows the teaching of the Extreme left, they rule by murder and extermination.

The US is NOT a right wing country as you think, we have been swinging to the left of center more with each election and we lose more rights each time. Anarchy IS the Extreme right or did you go to school during the revisonist years? There was a very good short video on here not long ago that placed left and right the way I was taught in school.

Obama is NOT a capitalist. He is the most amazing mix of communist and fascist I have ever seen.

I spent most of my most productive years trying to insure that we NEVER fought another all out shooting war. Everything we did was to that end. This country does not use rape and murder as weapons. I spent 5 years in targeting, working my butt off to try to insure as few civilian deaths as possible IF we were ever forced into a war. It was not easy. The Soviets, as the Germansl, place thier offensive weapons next to schools, hospitals etc. Made my job hard.

I do not mean to insult you, I just have way too much backround in defense etc to fall for the slogans etc of the left. I know what really happened. I lost too many friends.

As to the racism, again, you are who you hang with. Just follow Obama's friends and you will see. Faricon, Wright etc. He is very anti-Catholic as well. That is obvious by some of his appointments.

I have no wish to argue with you. I have no doubt that many of my friends will die because of this man. He will be going after many, the left has too, thier ideas are bankrupt.

I will not give up ANY rights to these slugs. NOT ONE!! It has been going down hill since Lincoln. FDR was a Stalinist as is Obama with a really nice mix of Hitler thrown in.

I do not trust him or any polititon for that matter. Almost ALL of our two main parties are very very left wing.

Good luck to you, again, I am very glad I am not young. I don't wish to live the the coming slavery of the left.
While I am too old to fight these bums, I will, if forced. No one will rule me. I bow to no man nor government. Left or Right.

I am a Freeman and will remain so until my death.

Layoutshooter

 

[Pilgrim]

Holly cow pilgrim, when I read your post I thought I could find an even more outrageous definition of anarchist so I went to Conservapedia thinking I could top your nonsense but not even there I could get a better misuse of the idea:


"Anarchism is a political philosophy advocating the removal of the State and the establishment of a society without government. The term is of Greek origin (coming from the word "αναρχία" (anarchia), meaning "without rulers".) Anarchists oppose the use of prisons. Anarchists tend to oppose any form of government, but can be found expressing support for direct democracy, freedom of speech, de-centralism, individualism and anti-authoritarianism.

Anarchists generally oppose what Noam Chomsky has termed "illegitimate authority": stopping a child from running into a busy street would be an act of legitimate authority. The government and other coercive entities are considered illegitimate. "

I have to admit it, you have talent...

Alas, it's not my talent on display - the aforementioned "outrageous definition" came from www.dictionary.com and I should have noted the credit for the source. If anyone cares to go to the following link:
anarchist - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
they will find a similar mainstream definition of the term. You can try to redefine the word or use all the Clintonian semantic twists and turns you want but the usage of the term is established. Although "anarchist" sounds more exotic, your philosophy sounds like pure socialism, especially when you claim that "capitalism and weak government equals slavery." This being the case, you and BHO should get along fine for the next four years. However, I assume you're not an independent businessman driving an expedite truck and depending on your own productivity for success.

 

[MrGautama]

OK, reasoning has no effect on you. Listening to you renews my strength to oppose even harder the corporate propaganda system. You talk from the privilege of never seen what those weapons do on the receiving end of the US imperialistic foreign policy. You are just another lucky man.

Sometimes I catch myself wondering how in earth did Hitler fooled so many; then I'm rattled into reality when I encounter someone like you and realize how easy it is.

If I was a believer I would pray for your soul, but because I'm not I will continue to resist the model in hopes that one day no more of my fellow citizens are be victimized the way you have been.

Good luck.

 

[MrGautama]

I have a very strong suspicion that Mr "G" and Mr. "A" are actually one in the same..Their styles of argument are awfully similar....

Oh man... Mr A is going to throw a tantrum if he reads that.

 

[aristotle]

I have a very strong suspicion that Mr "G" and Mr. "A" are actually one in the same..Their styles of argument are awfully similar....

LRE... I take strong exception to the comparison. It takes MrG 150 words for work I can accomplish with 15.

 

[MrGautama]

Alas, it's not my talent on display - the aforementioned "outrageous definition" came from www.dictionary.com and I should have noted the credit for the source. If anyone cares to go to the following link:
anarchist - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
they will find a similar mainstream definition of the term. You can try to redefine the word or use all the Clintonian semantic twists and turns you want but the usage of the term is established. Although "anarchist" sounds more exotic, your philosophy sounds like pure socialism, especially when you claim that "capitalism and weak government equals slavery." This being the case, you and BHO should get along fine for the next four years. However, I assume you're not an independent businessman driving an expedite truck and depending on your own productivity for success.

I thought you had talent... but I see you haven't been paying attention so let's make this thing clearer for you:

ANARCHISM IS A FORM OF SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!

so if you are trying to insult me by calling me a socialist... well go ahead, it won't have much effect.

"However, I assume you're not an independent businessman driving an expedite truck and depending on your own productivity for success"

How is customary, you assume wrong. I am a worker that sells a finish product, not a wage slave.

 

[MrGautama]

LRE... I take strong exception to the comparison. It takes MrG 150 words for work I can accomplish with 15.

Sure, it's a lot shorter to repeat the sheep mantra than to express a well thought idea.

 

[MrGautama]

Nonetheless, I see a common thread, not in what you two are saying, but the way you are saying it...I am absolutely certain that Mr Gautama is an alter ego for a longtime poster on this forum.

Holy crap!!! do I have a double personality???.