To Davekc

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I was not speaking of you Mr. G. I thought we were having a fun debate. You have your numbers, I have my beliefs. It was an interesting dis-agreement. Gave others food for thought. Where did you live overseas and why? I love good stories. Layoutshooter
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OH MAN OVM, don't look at my spelling, it sucks!! I once had a nun give me a spelling award when I got a "C" on a spelling test. It really went down hill after they invented spell check.

Our education system is dumbing down, I am very aware of it. We are also slowly moving towards a more European style. I don' tlike it. It labels kids too soon. It does not allow for a base in many subjects.

As to the older cultures, most of them have ALWAYS been rulled and void of any real choice or freedom. They had this kind and that queen. Thier underlings were told where and how to live. What to do and how to do it. They have no tradition of freedom. Layoutshooter
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I strongly suggest that some here become intimate with the term "illusory corollary" so they can recognize it when they fall into the trap of the illusory corollary. For example, you can't take the life expectancy statistics of a given country and reach any conclusion other than the life expectancy of a given country. To come up with reasons for the statistic requires information not contained in the statistics. For example, there are many reasons why the US has a lower life expectancy than some other countries. All of them valid, and all of them must be included, rather than just the reasons that support a given theory. Once you include all possible reasons, including such cultural attributes such as diet and what people do with their leisure time, you can then begin to see correlations within the data that are not an illusions, and only then can valid conclusions be formulated.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
Mr G, you really shouldn't clutter up all of this right wing rhetoric with facts. It will make them mental--oh wait too late. Just keep sipping that GOP koolaid boys, there you go everything is fine take another sip, put Rush on the radio, now close your eyes see him there, yeah it is good ole Ronnie Reagan ahh sweet dreams. :p

You know Doug I am beginning to believe it, it doesn't matter how hard we try they always revert back to the safe position of followers. It seems to be a trait mostly associated with right wing ideology, I mean you as a moderate democrat and me as an anarchist have huge political differences but both agree that reason and investigation are the tools to achieve prosperity and progress; on the right wing side all we see is a thick wall impermeable to reason. But as any hacker would say, it has to be a back door!.


P.S. Please Doug put a word in for me with The Great Gazoo to SEND SOME FREIGHT WAY!!! :D
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
OH MAN OVM, don't look at my spelling, it sucks!! I once had a nun give me a spelling award when I got a "C" on a spelling test. It really went down hill after they invented spell check.

Our education system is dumbing down, I am very aware of it. We are also slowly moving towards a more European style. I don' tlike it. It labels kids too soon. It does not allow for a base in many subjects.

As to the older cultures, most of them have ALWAYS been rulled and void of any real choice or freedom. They had this kind and that queen. Thier underlings were told where and how to live. What to do and how to do it. They have no tradition of freedom. Layoutshooter

And the fault of the education system lays squarely on the parents LACK of involvement....not the government..the parents....
Can vote out school board reps that do not comply...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You are correct. It is 100% the fault of the parents. It is 100% thier responsibilty to insure that thier children are educated. We insured that ours were. We made sure that they could read and write BEFORE kindergarden age. We exposed them to as many different ideas, theroies, subjects, cultures etc as we could within time and reason. We then allowed them to chose thier own way base on the broad base of knowlege we gave them. We were NOT special parents, all we did was accept and live up to the responsibilty we took on when we decided to have children. There is no VALID reason other than extreme illness or death for anyone to do less. If you have the kid, you HAVE to take full responsibilty for it. If you don't wish too, put it up for adoption. Layoutshooter
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
OH MAN OVM, don't look at my spelling, it sucks!! I once had a nun give me a spelling award when I got a "C" on a spelling test. It really went down hill after they invented spell check.

Forget about the spelling, I think that it should be universally discouraged in the internet community any references towards other people's spelling, if it becomes about shaming people into silence we'll loose some of the richness this wonderful medium offers.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I am not worried. If I do really want to write, which I did for a living for a bit, I would go into Word and use spell check. I don't ever want to write tech papers again, BORING!! I would like someday to write famliy hunting and fishing stories. Layoutshooter
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Besides, OVM was just pokin fun at me. It is one of his main functions in life!! As I do him. Layoutshooter :D
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
I was not speaking of you Mr. G. I thought we were having a fun debate. You have your numbers, I have my beliefs. It was an interesting dis-agreement. Gave others food for thought. Where did you live overseas and why? I love good stories. Layoutshooter

Ups, my bad.

I'd love to tell you about where but then I'd have to kill you :D:D.
No, the truth is I already disclosed myself as an anarchist and an atheist (not the greatest traits to be best friends with the ones in power), I don't want to take any chances that some fundie at the company I'm contracted with may recognize me if wondering around this forum, so I have to keep most information to myself; I've painfully learned my lesson in the past and now make sure to keep my politics and my work strictly separated. Thanks for asking though.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hey, you can't use my old spy jokes!! It is against union rules!!! Too bad, now I can't learn anything from you. I learn nothing from your numbers and for the most part don't like polls and studies no matter who does them. I can write a poll that would get any thing I want it to do. I learn from your backround and experiences. That gives insight into the person and how they developed thier belief structure. Without that insight nothing makes sense. :confused:

AND YES you do OVM and it is a good thing, someone has to keep me on my toes!!! That in itself is a never ending project considering my age and weight!!! :eek: Layoutshoooter
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Hey, you can't use my old spy jokes!! It is against union rules!!! Too bad, now I can't learn anything from you. I learn nothing from your numbers and for the most part don't like polls and studies no matter who does them. I can write a poll that would get any thing I want it to do. I learn from your backround and experiences. That gives insight into the person and how they developed thier belief structure. Without that insight nothing makes sense. :confused:

AND YES you do OVM and it is a good thing, someone has to keep me on my toes!!! That in itself is a never ending project considering my age and weight!!! :eek: Layoutshoooter

Its a struggle...*LOL*:rolleyes:
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
Hey, you can't use my old spy jokes!! It is against union rules!!!

It will never happen again!! ;)

Too bad, now I can't learn anything from you. I learn nothing from your numbers and for the most part don't like polls and studies no matter who does them. I can write a poll that would get any thing I want it to do. I learn from your backround and experiences. That gives insight into the person and how they developed thier belief structure. Without that insight nothing makes sense. :confused:

There is a post in an old thread, amongst all the blah that was going on there you'll find in the 4th paragraph a short generic description of my experience abroad; I think it explains a lot about what forged my belief structure. So when you have some time you can take a look and draw your own conclusions from it.

Post in Doug's Thread
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Agfter reading all of this, and knowing the OECD, the problem is that you are looking at numbers with a exclusion of culture.

Our culture is different from that or Europe and Asia, I said this before. The difference in how we perceive business and how we approach our problems is not the same as others.

Japan for example has been a closed society, and in it's economy it still is compared to other countries in the area. Their banking, their system of government and industry has always worked together in some capacity or another for the benefit of the country as a whole. It has been that way since Japan was a nation.

If you look at Germany, it is about the same. The economy is setup so business and government works together on key issues while the banks fund project in order to cooperate for ensured success. Their taxes are higher but there is a compensation that they can afford, it is the end result of the cooperation between the three key groups.

We have a rather unique situation which worked until the government got involved. No one can argue that the growth rate of the latter part of the 19th century and the first 20 years of the 20th century outpaced the growth since the end of the second world war. It is a fact that without income tax, without many of the punitive regulations, growth took off.

Now there is something else that many keep forgetting to add. When comparing our output to others, we tend to forget our manufacturing base is actually over 60 years old, where Japan, Europe and China are new.

The problem I am seeing is the sheer ignorance of people who think the thought is to just get rid of taxes, that is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is if we change our tax system to allow people to keep their money instead of taking it at the source and tax them at the consumption end, it will generate more revenue in the long run and allow more growth. We are a consumer society, our great leader is telling us to go out and spend, so what better way to actually get people to spend, tell them there will be no income taxes and tax what they buy.

I can't see why Ireland and some of the eastern European countries can see lowering taxes is the thing to do but people here can't, it is like they are all brainwashed. I think what many miss is not what the tax change will do for us but how it is perceived by the rest of the world, like Ireland learned, we need investment in the country but we can't get that now.

Speaking of Ireland, maybe Obama needs to look at their social progream resturcturing and we need to look at how they were keeping things held together.
 

MrGautama

Not a Member
Agfter reading all of this, and knowing the OECD, the problem is that you are looking at numbers with a exclusion of culture.

Our culture is different from that or Europe and Asia, I said this before. The difference in how we perceive business and how we approach our problems is not the same as others.

Japan for example has been a closed society, and in it's economy it still is compared to other countries in the area. Their banking, their system of government and industry has always worked together in some capacity or another for the benefit of the country as a whole. It has been that way since Japan was a nation.


OK, let's try to find some justification and yeah... let's talk about Japan also instead of the pattern that links higher taxes to development. And now that we are at it let's discredit the source without giving an alternative one to back our claim.



If you look at Germany, it is about the same. The economy is setup so business and government works together on key issues while the banks fund project in order to cooperate for ensured success. Their taxes are higher but there is a compensation that they can afford, it is the end result of the cooperation between the three key groups.


Also let's talk about Germany (that incidentally is not on the table we are analyzing) so we can keep focused away from the pattern that links higher taxes to development.




We have a rather unique situation which worked until the government got involved. No one can argue that the growth rate of the latter part of the 19th century and the first 20 years of the 20th century outpaced the growth since the end of the second world war. It is a fact that without income tax, without many of the punitive regulations, growth took off.

Now there is something else that many keep forgetting to add. When comparing our output to others, we tend to forget our manufacturing base is actually over 60 years old, where Japan, Europe and China are new.


And now might be a good time to troll with that tax break for the rich disguised as Fair Tax, Oh man that was a clever name we came up with. And let's throw in China too, a little more diversion can't hurt!.




The problem I am seeing is the sheer ignorance of people who think the thought is to just get rid of taxes, that is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is if we change our tax system to allow people to keep their money instead of taking it at the source and tax them at the consumption end, it will generate more revenue in the long run and allow more growth. We are a consumer society, our great leader is telling us to go out and spend, so what better way to actually get people to spend, tell them there will be no income taxes and tax what they buy.


Some more hot air and a little extra push for the tax break for the rich, some Obama spinning and we are done with that inconvenient pattern that links higher taxes to development. By now nobody remembers it!.




I can't see why Ireland and some of the eastern European countries can see lowering taxes is the thing to do but people here can't, it is like they are all brainwashed. I think what many miss is not what the tax change will do for us but how it is perceived by the rest of the world, like Ireland learned, we need investment in the country but we can't get that now.

Speaking of Ireland, maybe Obama needs to look at their social progream resturcturing and we need to look at how they were keeping things held together.


Well, to make sure let's trow Ireland and Eastern Europe in. I hope no one notices that Ireland is more developed and pays higher taxes than us so it reinforces the pattern that links higher taxes to development. I might get lucky.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If you were a true Anarchist you would be opposed to ALL forms of government and ALL taxes. You dissapoint me!! LOL! Taxes are one of the halmarks of government, you should hate them. Layoutshooter
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
Hey at least you tried. Might want to throw someone other than Japan.
Not looking so good over there.
Global Economy Matters: Japan's "Unimaginable" Contraction

Dave you should have pointed out that of the top 3 on the list only Canada is doing OK but then with Canada's size verse population they get away with breaking lots of economic rules they don't have the same pressures the rest of the world does ,no offense to our northern brothers both Iceland and Norway are headed back to the all-thing to work things out Iceland sacked there government here a while back and Norway is right behind them what this list actually proves is the very opposite of what it's trying to prove
 
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