Scale question

[Turtle]

I'm not so sure. We have drivers out there who have taken the CDL tests, driving huge tractor-trailer rigs, who still have no concept of how much room you need to stop. At least, not if the following distances they're allowing themselves are any indication.

That's how stereotypes form. Yes, we do have driver out there who haven't learned much from the studying for, and taking the CDL tests. But we also have quite a few who are safer and more professional as a direct result of having that knowledge. I submit that it's better to have everyone take the test, even if a few do not display the knowledge to be gained from doing so, than what you are proposing - that no one take it because a few box of rocks are too stupid to put that education and knowledge into practice.

I also think that everyone, cars included, should have to study for, take and past the HAZMAT test, for the same reason.

So, if that's the case for people who actually drive big rigs, how would making people who drive cars take the CDL written tests be any more aware of what CDL drivers have to go through?

Knowledge trumps ignorance. Even if having those who drive cars take the test resulted in an abysmally low 10% effectiveness of fewer people cutting in front of big rigs and then slamming on the brakes, that's a massive improvement over what ignorance produces. I suspect that CDL education, especially when coupled with HAZMAT education, would have a far more dramatic impact that a measly 10 percent.

Special note: That following distance can disappear in a hurry when something happens up ahead, and I see people, from small cars on up to monster rigs, allowing distances that would be frightening in a parking lot to be all they have on the Interstate. Taking a CDL test doesn't seem to stop people from being brain-dead behind the wheel.

SO you really are advocating that no one take it, because it's not 100 percent effective. Interesting.

 

[xiggi]

I have to say I think having the average driver take a hazmat test is a little out there. Lets have everyone take the motorcycle test,.concealed carry test, healthy food test, CPR test. Sure educating everyone on everything will help a little but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

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[aristotle]

It is sad to watch the indifference to safety that too many drivers demonstrate on the highway. The seeming casualness of driving a 5,000 Lb car at 70mph ripping down the road with all the concern of a Sunday stroll. We see motorists in various stages of emotional distress or distraction so wrapped up in their personal issues that careful attention to driving is just not present.

We have all seen the angry driver. The upset driver. The couple arguing while driving. The lady crying on her cell phone driving 45mph down the interstate... oblivious to her surroundings. The kissy-grabby teenage couple who appear to be making a baby on the way to Dairy Queen. The sweet elderly driver who is too medicated to find his or her way home. The drunkards. The macho monster truck three feet off your rear bumper. The lane drifters. The lane straddlers. The lane jumpers. The last-second exit kamikazes. The u-turn specialists. The confused out-of-towners. The pimped-out 1975 Cadillac with spinner wheels and a booming stereo so loud it rattles your windows from 50 feet away.

Travel on our highways too often resembles a carnival in motion. And as much as the above mentioned distracted or impaired drivers pose a threat, I equally fear the accident-free driver who unwittingly has become over confident and complacent. Driving becomes automatic. It shouldn't be an automatic function. Focus. Focus. Focus. Concentrate. Be aware. Leave yourself an out. Slow down a little. Regularly remind youself we as drivers are hurtling down the road at high speeds. Manage the space around your truck and extend courtesy to other drivers. There are no perfect drivers. Yet, we all can make a commitment to continual improvement and increased safety. Lastly, maintain your truck.

 

[mjmsprt40]

Reply to Xiggi:

That's my take on it. Why have people take haz-mat and air brake tests when the biggest thing they'll ever drive is a minivan? Do teach following distances though-- PLEASE-- that's not specific to any particular size of vehicle after all. Some vehicles need more distance than others, and while we're at it it's not a bad idea to teach people to see motorcycles. (I saw a sign a few years back saying that you should start seeing farmers. That got my attention. It's big, it's green, it's slow moving--- what couldn't you see?) Having everybody take a CDL test for vehicles they'll never drive could be counter-productive, in fact.

 

[Turtle]

Well, I think for the purposes of this topic, you know, regarding motor vehicle safety, that the line can be drawn on this side of the concealed and carry, health food, and CPR tests. Additionally, there is nothing in the motorcycle test that isn't already in the driver's license test that would be of any additional benefit to those operating cars and trucks. That's where the line needs to be drawn, where increased awareness and safety is concerned. Knowing the conceal and carry laws, or CPR, or which brakes a motorcycle driver should avoid locking up is not going to increase safety on the roadway by those driving cars.

Having the average driver take the HAZMAT test may seem a little out there, and if it were for the purpose of hauling HAZMAT it would be. But the average driver doesn't have a clue what those placards mean - that there are materials on board which are dangerous to the public and/or the environment, and that's of the minority who even notice them at all. Taking the HAZMAT test would result in far more people at least taking notice of placards, realizing what they mean, and even knowing how to look up the material they represent. It would alert people to exercise a little extra safety on the road. They wouldn't be as likely to tailgate or cut off a truck, especially one with placards, nor would they be as likely to drive for miles while abreast of a trailer, placarded or not.

It's interesting, though not really all that surprising, that those who balk at the notion of non-CDL drivers taking the CDL written test, and especially the HAZMAT test, usually have neither a CDL nor a HAZMAT endorsement. They think it's unnecessary and a worthless waste of time to study for and take those tests. Of course, they balk from ignorance. Those with CDLs and HAZMAT endorsements rarely think it's a bad thing or a worthless thing for everyone to take the tests. Please note that I've qualified my statements with "usually" and "rarely", leaving room for the inevitable few exceptions to the rule, and those who are eager to point them out. I fully acknowledge that there's someone out there somewhere with a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement who thinks 4-wheeler drivers have no business learning about HAZMAT and dangers involved. But I still think that for the most part, generally speaking, overall on the average, knowledge trumps ignorance.

That's my take on it. Why have people take haz-mat and air brake tests when the biggest thing they'll ever drive is a minivan?

I could be wrong, as my memory can be at times quite flawed, but I don't know that I've ever advocated that drivers of cars, light trucks or mini vans take the air brake test, since it would serve no purpose beyond that of learning how to use and maintain air brakes. But as far as HAZMAT in concerned, if there is absolutely no safety benefit to be gained from taking the tests to anyone other than those who haul HAZMAT, then you're right.

 

[xiggi]

I have no problem with educating the public I draw the line at testing on such things when there is no direct involvement. If I read right your thought is it would make roads safer. That is why I pointed out things like CPR testing it would make life in general better but reqiuring it is anorher thing altogether. Heck public healthcare might saves lifes but that does.not make it the right thing to do.

And yes I am one who would say for me taking a cdl test accomplished nothing other than putting a few dollars in the states pockets and much more to a private testing facility.

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[mjmsprt40]

I might give Turtle a partial point about Haz-mat. Even then, there is a difference between people who have to be directly involved, and who need to know as much as possible about each dangerous material they deal with, and the rest of us who need to know enough to treat it with respect and give it space.

Way back when I worked receiving in a factory, I dealt with receiving Nitric Acid, Hydrofluoric acid and sulfuric acid, just to name a few nasties. I didn't like dealing directly with them then, and still don't want to be around them to this day. Today, I need to know to stay away from them. Back then, I needed to know how to deal with leaking drums. There's a big difference in what you need to know.

 

[Turtle]

That's where we're gonna have to agree to disagree, as I view sharing the road with heavy trucks and buses, especially trucks placarded with HAZMAT, as being "direct involvement" that affects the safety of everyone on the road. And yes, I know why you brought up the CPR testing, and the others, but those are straw man logical fallacies and not germane to the discussion of safety on the road. As for you learning nothing whatsoever and gaining zero knowledge beyond that of the standard operator driver's license test after having taken the CDL test, I got nothing. Not sure what to make of that.

 

[mjmsprt40]

Turtle: Does a mom driving a minivan need to know how to secure oxygen cylinders and acetylene cylinders? Does she need to know who to call-- beyond the police-- if a drum is leaking? How much CDL knowledge does she need to drive her kids to school in the morning on a route that doesn't normally contain heavy trucks?

I could wish one of outfits I used to drive for understood a bit more about it, I can guarantee that transporting large oxygen cylinders in a van is a really bad idea since they can't be secured properly-- but that outfit seemed clueless about that. But, a mom driving a minivan is unlikely to be asked to do such a thing. For her, it's enough to know not to do it.

 

[Turtle]

I might give Turtle a partial point about Haz-mat. Even then, there is a difference between people who have to be directly involved, and who need to know as much as possible about each dangerous material they deal with, and the rest of us who need to know enough to treat it with respect and give it space.

That's not unlike the differences between hauling HAZMAT in a van (cargo or Sprinter), and in hauling it in a big truck (straight or tractor-trailer). There are things in a big truck that the drivers really need never concern themselves with, since they haul everything in the box of the truck. There are certain types of HAZMAT that cannot be hauled in the cab of a truck, but those driving trucks don't haul freight in the cab, anyway, so they never think about it. But with a van, the entire van, bulkhead or not, is the cab of the truck, so there are several types of HAZMAT that cannot be hauled in a van. Van drivers need to be keenly aware of what they are hauling.

By the same token, there are types of Hazardous Materials that are not even HAZMAT in certain quantities, and you don't need a CDL or a HAZMAT endorsement to haul them. Paint and solvents are the most common, along with most Class 9 materials. There are others, of course. These are the items which require placarding only in quantities of 1001 pounds or more. But even if you don't have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement, it's certainly better that you know what you can and cannot haul, rather than being ignorant and leaving it up to someone else to decide for you. Regular run-o-the-mill truck batteries are HAZMAT in certain quantities, but not in others. If you have studied and taken the HAZMAT test, even the practice tests online, you'll know without question whether or not you can haul that 1200 pound skid of batteries. Even if you don't know off the top of your head, you'll know exactly where to look to find out.

 

[usafk9]

This portion of the thread is almost deserving of starting a new one. Driver awareness, safety, and the general public driving near you, or some such. Any volunteers?

I'm gonna have to wholeheartedly agree with Turtle on the Hazmat thing. The more the general public is educated about those bright-colored diamonds on our trucks and vans, the better. What happens, in a crash, if the CDL holder becomes incapacitated, and the first person on-scene is that soccer mom? Wouldn't you want her to know what she's approaching?

Regarding testing, I remember taking my POV (privately-owned vehicle) test in West Germany in 1985. I remember several of my peers saying the odds were great that I would flunk first time taking it. They were right. That test was a bear, IIRC. The Germans have a much higher standard for traffic law knowledge, and vehicle safety.

I also believe that our road and classroom training and testing for cars just plain sucks. I wonder why our federal government is not throwing way more attention towards their education than they do for trucks. Trucks, when they crash, can be quite catastrophic, but their numbers pale in comparison to the number of car crashes. I vividly remember my driver's ed instructor taking us through a snow-covered lot at school to teach us to steer out of skids....not a lot different than when my bride and I went through the Michigan Center for Decision Driving Course at the Eaton Proving Grounds, during our Class A training. I'm wondering why people that drive in Northern climates shouldn't also undergo some similar training. Letting kids in Michigan get their learner's permit at 14 1/2 still blows my mind.

Okay, I'm done. ....for now......

 

[Rocketman]

What was the question?

 

[Turtle]

Turtle: Does a mom driving a minivan need to know how to secure oxygen cylinders and acetylene cylinders?

Most of them, probably not. If he occasionally transports an elderly parent on oxygen, maybe she would. But like you said, if she knows the dangers of doing so, and knows not to do it, or at least knows how to properly secure them, that's more knowledge than she had before. She and others on the road are likely to be a little saferif she knows.

Does she need to know who to call-- beyond the police-- if a drum is leaking?

Probably not. But at least with having knowledge of HAZMAT, seeing a truck with placards and leaking drums, she would know to call somebody rather than dismissing it out of hand.

How much CDL knowledge does she need to drive her kids to school in the morning on a route that doesn't normally contain heavy trucks?

Probably about 10-20 percent of CDL knowledge not contained in the standard driving tests she could benefit from on a route like that. The CDL test focuses on and reinforces well beyond that of the standard test the importance of things like not following too closely and other safety issues. The CDL test, and the studying for them, focus far more on things like pre-trips inspections and safety equipment. The standard soccer mommy minivan test focuses on basic safety and rules of the road, traffic signals and stuff like that, but the CDL tests build on that to emphasize safety and other issues that even soccer mommy on a road with no trucks can benefit from.

 

[xiggi]

That's where we're gonna have to agree to disagree, as I view sharing the road with heavy trucks and buses, especially trucks placarded with HAZMAT, as being "direct involvement" that affects the safety of everyone on the road. And yes, I know why you brought up the CPR testing, and the others, but those are straw man logical fallacies and not germane to the discussion of safety on the road. As for you learning nothing whatsoever and gaining zero knowledge beyond that of the standard operator driver's license test after having taken the CDL test, I got nothing. Not sure what to make of that.

I would expect that reply as far as cdl testing goes. But before that again your whole point about hazmat is to make people safer everthing I mentioned helps people survive in ceetain instanses it is a logical comparison to your hazmat argument.

Back ti cdl testing I already had enough sense to give big trucks space and ubderstand the basics. Nothing on the cdl test added to my common sense knoweledge.. Before getting a cdl I was serously injured when rear ended by a semi having gone through testing prior to that would have in no way affected the outcome.

Now about toliet.paper.

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[Turtle]

Over the roll.

 

[Moot]

That's where we're gonna have to agree to disagree, as I view sharing the road with heavy trucks and buses, especially trucks placarded with HAZMAT, as being "direct involvement" that affects the safety of everyone on the road.

I'm gonna have to agree to agree with Xiggi and agree to disagree with Turtle. Is the mini van driving, soccer mommy going to change her driving habits around big trucks just because the big truck has HAZMAT placards? I'm sure she will think twice before cutting in front of a big truck and jamming on the brakes just because said big truck is displaying flammable placards. It's one thing to get crushed to death, but crushed and incinerated, that's a bit much. Of course if you have made "final arrangements" with the Cremation Society of America, you or your loved one's survivors may be eligible for a 20% discount.

What are the odds of soccer mommy, John Q. Public or Richard Cranium dealing with a HAZMAT situation? I don't have a HAZMAT endorsement but I do have enough sense that if I see liquid leaking from a truck that has black and white placards depicting a hand with a chunk missing from it and those ominous vapor things wafting above the hand, I'm going keep my distance!

Poison placards, I've got a basic understanding of the English language and if I didn't, the skull and crossbones thing might give me pause. Although I see where some could mistake it for a pirate flag and want to meet Captain Jack Sparrow. Same goes for the red flammable placards. I can read, but the flame thing is an attention getter. Explosives, the placard depicts symbolic debris emanating from an epicenter. Pretty straight forward, but I guess it could be misconstrued as a symbol for a strike by a drunken bowler.

I could see including some very basic knowledge about HAZMAT in driver education classes and some basic questions on a written driver's test, but not a mandatory CDL HAZMAT version on a driver test. Law enforcement officials, DOT personnel emergency responders and fire fighters should be educated in HAZMAT and be able to pass a CDL type HAZMAT test.

I was involved in a HAZMAT spill where a dewer of liquid helium broke loose and tipped over in my trailer displaying NON-FLAMMABLE GAS placards. These dewers have a pressure relief valve that expels some helium while in transit. Of course, laying on its side a lot of helium was expelled. I'm sure it looked a bit deadly as the helium vapor poured out from under the roll-up door and then lifted skyward. I parked my truck in the middle of a two block long stretch of one-way street that had a Chinese restaurant on one end and a post office and parking lot at the other end. Nothing in between but vacant land covered with trash courtesy of urban development.

The only person to witness this incident was a City of Minneapolis street worker, who I am sure panicked and called 911 while I was making my way to a pay phone one block over to report to dispatch. As per the CDL HAZMAT procedures, I left the flagged B.O.L. on the drivers seat. My plan was to report to dispatch, wait for the dewer to do its thing, open the trailer door, let the trailer air out and then enter and upright and re-secure the dewer. But the Minneapolis Fire Department's elite Hazardous Response Unit arrived and barricaded both ends of the 2 block stretch of street and cordoned off my T/T with yellow crime scene tape.

The head of this elite HAZMAT Response team was a MFD Captain. This moron freaked and threatened to have me arrested if I crossed the yellow tape to get my bills of lading. He had no FREAKING clue as what helium was or what dangers it posed. He was unable to navigate his oversize HAZMAT regulations books and his mobile command post had no mobile phone link. Of course he believed nothing I said and refused my offer of help to find helium in the HAZMAT Guidebook.

I also was pulled over in Wisconsin and escorted to a nearby scale by a state trooper for displaying Flammable placards on my van, even though I had 2600# of flammable paint and the proper documentation to prove it. He couldn't grasp the concept of a cargo van hauling HAZMAT.

If people that should know all about HAZMAT are clueless, why force the general public to pass a CDL type HAZMAT test?

 

[moose]

One of my HazMat eye opener was that in the Minnesota cold Helium balloons falls to the ground.
Fascinating !

 

[mjmsprt40]

One of my HazMat eye opener was that in the Minnesota cold Helium balloons falls to the ground.
Fascinating !

That brings back a memory. It wasn't winter though, it was summer. Delivering a van load of helium-filled balloons to the local supermarket. It's one time I can honestly say my van was lighter loaded than it was empty. I never gave a thought to the hazmat issue that day, it was warm so I had my windows partially open (not warm enough for air conditioning). If a balloon had popped I doubt it would have created much of a problem anyway.

 

[michaelr1975]

I was under the impression that being in a CV under 10,000# that we never needed to stop at open truck scales. Right or wrong? I was driving back from Denver CO Friday afternoon and while driving through Nebraska 2 different times I drove by scales on the highway that weigh in motion. Both times these huge electric signs along the road said "pull onto scale" while other larger trucks ahead of me were getting signs saying "bypass scale". Was I supposed to stop at these scales? I did and both times I felt stupid sitting in the line with a CV while big P/U duallys and other CV just drove past. What is the correct thing I should have done? I was running with no load. Thanks guys!

ok boss it depends on what state your in but yes you was supose to stop...
your gvw is 8000.or up in some places and some are 5000..so its always better to stop when its open

 

[xiggi]

That brings back a memory. It wasn't winter though, it was summer. Delivering a van load of helium-filled balloons to the local supermarket. It's one time I can honestly say my van was lighter loaded than it was empty. I never gave a thought to the hazmat issue that day, it was warm so I had my windows partially open (not warm enough for air conditioning). If a balloon had popped I doubt it would have created much of a problem anyway.

Back in my early delivery days we sometimes delivered for a place called balloons a blooming. The drivers nicknamed it balloons a busting because they always lost some along the way.

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