"Moving day"???

pandora2112

Seasoned Expediter
If we closed down threads because they go off track, we'd never have any open threads. Also, you can't really ask to close the thread because it's off track, and in the same paragraph continue the discussion by stating which principles you stand behind, and then taking the thread further off track by asking the question you just asked about two democratic parties.

As far as Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia, et, al, those were different cultures in different times, with different legalities involved, and even in those the same sex marriage was the exception to the rule, not the norm. The norm is what sex was created for.

Throwing out exceptions to normalcy to make a case for the exception to become the norm is over of the weakest logical fallacy arguments one can make. The only real, valid argument that one can make to allow homosexuals to have the M-word after rejecting civil unions is, they should have it because they want it really, really badly. Three-year-olds know well to use that logic. Because it works. It's a reason that might not be accepted by society, of course, but at least it's honest.

These are different times and cultures...so it's okay to redefine marriage from what it was but not now? That makes no sense...
There are lots of times when we must step outside the norm and accept that even a minority has the same rights as everyone else.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
These are different times and cultures...so it's okay to redefine marriage from what it was but not now?
No, it was ALWAYS defined as a man and a woman. Throughout the entire history of marriage, more than 99 percent of them have been between two people of the opposite sex. Exceptions have been made, more of them in some cultures, but even in those cultures the same-sex marriages were the exception to the norm.

That makes no sense...
Of course it does. Again, you can't cite exceptions to a rule as an argument for turning the exception into the rule. The primary reason for humans being joined together has not changed from the very beginning. There have been exceptions over the years in different cultures, but that doesn't mean this society at this time should be forced to make another exception now.

There are lots of times when we must step outside the norm and accept that even a minority has the same rights as everyone else.
Homosexuals can go out right now and get married, same as everyone else. They just can't marry someone of the same sex, same as everyone else.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
No, it was ALWAYS defined as a man and a woman. Throughout the entire history of marriage, more than 99 percent of them have been between two people of the opposite sex. Exceptions have been made, more of them in some cultures, but even in those cultures the same-sex marriages were the exception to the norm.

Of course it does. Again, you can't cite exceptions to a rule as an argument for turning the exception into the rule. The primary reason for humans being joined together has not changed from the very beginning. There have been exceptions over the years in different cultures, but that doesn't mean this society at this time should be forced to make another exception now.

Homosexuals can go out right now and get married, same as everyone else. They just can't marry someone of the same sex, same as everyone else.

Blacks were considered property at a point in our nations history...times change...
How does it affect YOU if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
Well i know who cares..people like you that like to dwell in others business.. WHO CARES...BIG DEAL..

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paullud

Veteran Expediter
Blacks were considered property at a point in our nations history...times change...
How does it affect YOU if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
Well i know who cares..people like you that like to dwell in others business.. WHO CARES...BIG DEAL..

Sent from my Etch-A-Sketch

So your point is that you get to use the government to get involved in religion when it suits your wishes but if you feel religion gets involved in government then you scream about separation of church and state. It is going to be a 2 way street, either you want them separate or you don't.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Civil union versus marriage...the benefits are different.
FactCheck.org: What Is a Civil Union?
They absolutely are now, thanks to the rejection of civil unions by gay activists back in the 1970s and 1980s. The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was an indirect direct response to that rejection, where gay rights activists refused to accept civil unions without the word "Marriage" being attached to it. Several states were strongly in favor of granting civil unions to same-sex couples specifically because of the problems that some long-term gay couples were having when one of them died and the deceased's family, who didn't approve of the relationship, basically cut out the surviving partner from everything, including community property, visitation rights while their partner was in the hospital, a whole host of issues that spouses received which same-sex partners did not.

But civil unions, with the same exact benefits, including federal benefits, wasn't good enough unless it was defined as a marriage rather than just a civil union. So, homosexuals rejected the offer, and that's when they began in earnest to use the court system to get what they wanted. They'd find sympathetic liberal judges who would rule in their favor, rulings that were rarely overturned because reversals usually only happen in cases of procedural errors or erroneous applications of current law and precedent. And every ruling that was not overturned became a precedent all on its own.

The majority of people in society didn't like the courts legislating from the bench, especially when it came to homosexuals attempting to force their views onto society at large. The people fought back and demanded that marriage actually be defined as it traditionally has been, and the DOMA was signed into legislation as a result of that. The people in more than 30 states have voted against gay marriage since then, sometimes overriding the legislations of their liberal representatives. Some of those voting referendums and new legislations which define marriage have also gone as far as to forbid even civil unions, the very civil unions that was offered 30 or more years ago. That's how far the backlash has gone. And the Gay Activists keep on fighting.

Know that whatever you read on FactCheck.org is biased, despite their facade. They are run by and funded by an extremely liberal organization, Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania the director of which, Kathleen Hall Jamieson, is a professor and the author of several books on communication and deception, particularly in liberal politics, and how to win at it. She is one of the world's foremost experts on political deception, a proud socialist, and is in charge of the self-billed "non-partisan" FactCheck.org. Read everything at that site with a jaundiced eye.

Here's an excerpt from a previous post about FactCheck.org. I encourage people to read the entire post to get a better idea about that organization, despite the fact that I wrote it.
If you wanted to deceive people who are trying to differentiate between truth and lies on the Internet how would you do it? If you were extremely devious and had no conscience, you might set up a Web site with some official and unbiased sounding name that claims to be the encyclopedia of truth to be used as a tool for anyone who has the same biased view and wants to make believe to "back it up" with what they would like you to think is "indisputable fact." If you are really good at it you will use careful wordsmithing to avoid projecting bias in individual articles, and instead be selective in the facts you use and which facts you want to check.

That's precisely what FactCheck.org, and others like it do, and are. Most telling, perhaps, about FactCheck.org is the overall number and kind of articles they do publish. They have an awful lot of articles defending president Obama, and their criticisms of him are with regards to mostly inconsequential issues.
In addition to the copious number of articles which defend Obama, they are very kind to other liberal issues, such as same-sex marriage, and treat those issues in the same manner they treat Obama.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Blacks were considered property at a point in our nations history...times change...
How does it affect YOU if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
Well i know who cares..people like you that like to dwell in others business.. WHO CARES...BIG DEAL..
Yes, times change, and it's society that changes them.

"People like you"? Really? If you're going to attack the person with the "you" word, then YOU really should pay more attention to who YOU are attacking. Be a little more observant, or quit using the word YOU in your responses. *I* don't dwell in other people's business and try to tell them that to do. If YOU had been paying attention you'd know that. I think people should mind their own business, and do so in the extreme. I think the only person who should be able to make a decision on abortion is the mother, with the only valid input she receives being from the one who got her pregnant and anyone she expressly solicits for advice. I think parents should be able to raise their children any way they see fit, and it's nobody else's business. I think all "Child Protective Services" should be de-funded and abolished. I think homosexuals should be able to live their lives any way they want to, short of hijacking already defined terms to satisfy their own personal and political agendas.

How does it affect ME if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
If affects ME because I'm a part of society at large, and just like society at large, and I don't like being told that I should accept and embrace things as being normal which are not normal at all. I don't like having someone else's views forced upon me. I don't like people crying and whining to get something, and think they should get it, just because they want it a really, really lot (unless they are under the age of about five, then it's at least understandable, but after that age it just becomes childish, and the older you get the more childish and immature it becomes). You might not care, certain individuals might not care, but society does. And so do I.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Be careful, Turtle. Next up is the pedophiles, who want to poke kids really, really bad.

People in hell want ice water. That's all I'm saying.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
There are some things society will grant, some things society won't. It's really that simple.
 

pandora2112

Seasoned Expediter
Blacks were considered property at a point in our nations history...times change...
How does it affect YOU if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
Well i know who cares..people like you that like to dwell in others business.. WHO CARES...BIG DEAL..

Sent from my Etch-A-Sketch

Good point! At one time it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person. It's probably still not the "norm"...many marriages are between two people of similar ethnic backgrounds. Should it have stayed illegal bc it falls outside the norm!?!? I think not!
Marriage has not always been a religious ceremony, I believe it was medieval times when the church (Catholic I believe) stepped in so the church redefined marriage and it needs to be redefined again...on this subject we need to look into the past and follow the example of our ancestors.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Good point! At one time it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person. It's probably still not the "norm"...many marriages are between two people of similar ethnic backgrounds. Should it have stayed illegal bc it falls outside the norm!?!? I think not!
Marriage has not always been a religious ceremony, I believe it was medieval times when the church (Catholic I believe) stepped in so the church redefined marriage and it needs to be redefined again...on this subject we need to look into the past and follow the example of our ancestors.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

Stepping into the past and following the example---- But, I thought you said you didn't want God's input. You don't get much further back into the past than the beginning, and in the beginning God created man and woman and brought them together.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Yes, times change, and it's society that changes them.

"People like you"? Really? If you're going to attack the person with the "you" word, then YOU really should pay more attention to who YOU are attacking. Be a little more observant, or quit using the word YOU in your responses. *I* don't dwell in other people's business and try to tell them that to do. If YOU had been paying attention you'd know that. I think people should mind their own business, and do so in the extreme. I think the only person who should be able to make a decision on abortion is the mother, with the only valid input she receives being from the one who got her pregnant and anyone she expressly solicits for advice. I think parents should be able to raise their children any way they see fit, and it's nobody else's business. I think all "Child Protective Services" should be de-funded and abolished. I think homosexuals should be able to live their lives any way they want to, short of hijacking already defined terms to satisfy their own personal and political agendas.

How does it affect ME if two guys/gal get married...WHO CARES??
If affects ME because I'm a part of society at large, and just like society at large, and I don't like being told that I should accept and embrace things as being normal which are not normal at all. I don't like having someone else's views forced upon me. I don't like people crying and whining to get something, and think they should get it, just because they want it a really, really lot (unless they are under the age of about five, then it's at least understandable, but after that age it just becomes childish, and the older you get the more childish and immature it becomes). You might not care, certain individuals might not care, but society does. And so do I.

Well just as YOU dont like being told what to do..neither does a gay person want to be told who they can marry...
They dont like YOUR views of who the can marry forced on them
Why de fund CPS...yet not perfect.. they protect alot of childern.
Not like the "Hetero" crowd is keeping the institution of marriage so sacred..


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asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Stepping into the past and following the example---- But, I thought you said you didn't want God's input. You don't get much further back into the past than the beginning, and in the beginning God created man and woman and brought them together.

But what about us that dont believe in god....see now people are pushing there religion on others because they think its correct...i dont feel or believe that way....i do not believe for a second..WHAM all of sudden here stands 1 man..1 woman..now go make more people..so i guess my view on marriage would be different..

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pandora2112

Seasoned Expediter
Stepping into the past and following the example---- But, I thought you said you didn't want God's input. You don't get much further back into the past than the beginning, and in the beginning God created man and woman and brought them together.

Actually the Christian God is a new kid on the block....I'm talking about before Christianity took over and claimed my holidays as theirs and destroy what they didn't understand or like.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Good point! At one time it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person. It's probably still not the "norm"...many marriages are between two people of similar ethnic backgrounds. Should it have stayed illegal bc it falls outside the norm!?!? I think not!
Marriage has not always been a religious ceremony, I believe it was medieval times when the church (Catholic I believe) stepped in so the church redefined marriage and it needs to be redefined again...on this subject we need to look into the past and follow the example of our ancestors.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

It was religious with the Celts, Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Muslims, Jewish, Norse, and probably countless others. To say marriage isn't about procreation is ludicrous.
 

mjmsprt40

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
funny-cat-pictures-walk-awai-luk-kewl-luk-kewl.jpg
 

pandora2112

Seasoned Expediter
It was religious with the Celts, Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Muslims, Jewish, Norse, and probably countless others. To say marriage isn't about procreation is ludicrous.

Marriage started out about power and consolidating that power and yes procreation...but in ancient times it was not strictly religious and it most definitely wasn't about love. The Christian church is the one who pigeonholed marriage to narrow definition of who can get married and as they took over ceremonies became religious. It has not always been that way!!!

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(
 

pandora2112

Seasoned Expediter
In ancient Rome, marriage was a civil affair governed by imperial law. But when the empire collapsed, in the 5th century, church courts took over and elevated marriage to a holy union. As the church's power grew through the Middle Ages, so did its influence over marriage. In 1215, marriage was declared one of the church's seven sacraments, alongside rites like baptism and penance. But it was only in the 16th century that the church decreed that weddings be performed in public, by a priest, and before witnesses.



)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Good point! At one time it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person. It's probably still not the "norm"...many marriages are between two people of similar ethnic backgrounds. Should it have stayed illegal bc it falls outside the norm!?!? I think not!
Marriage has not always been a religious ceremony, I believe it was medieval times when the church (Catholic I believe) stepped in so the church redefined marriage and it needs to be redefined again...on this subject we need to look into the past and follow the example of our ancestors.

)O( ~ Namaste ~ )O(

Actually it is a really terrible point because that would be stopping a man and woman from being married which is denying equal rights. If we followed the paths of our ancestors then that may not be so good for minorities.

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cubansammich

Not a Member
In light of the statements made by some people that if the other guy wins, they're moving to Canada, I have a couple of questions. How many here have suitcases packed? How many of your neighbors have requested your services to help them move on short notice?

I know of a couple of guys on another forum, on opposite ends of the political spectrum, who had made statements about moving several months back, but who now deny ever having said it. I guess the actual business of having to move to Canada "because the other guy won" is a bit more formidable a prospect than they figured it would be. Too bad in one sense, it would be worth it to me to get a passport for all the work of moving malcontents North of the border. It should pay decent, if nothing else.

Anyone who is planning on moving out let me know. I'm interested in purchasing your expedite vehicle. It's going to be a great year in 13'
 
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