Michigan illegally harassing CVs?

bobwg · Oct 28, 2010

AMonger said:
Because he told her why he stopped her--to find out what she was doing out on the roads at 0-dark-thirty. It wasn't anything like a traffic stop where they take license and registration and such. I don't think he even did that. He just came up, asked her what she was doing out on the roads at such an hour, she answered, and he went away like a good boy. But he still illegally impeded her progress on her lawful journey just to pull her over to ask the question.

He asked her a question and that was it but that is not proof he didnt see something or think there was a good reason to stop her unless you some sort of mind reader? you sound like you just hate cops

AMonger · Oct 28, 2010

greg334 said:
Amonger, hate to break this to you but the cops can search any commercial vehicle, a commercial vehicle is define in this state as anything used for commercial purposes, and there is no weight limits or anything like that.

So how does Officer Vader know that the van that just passed him is being used for commercial purposes? If it doesn't have Michigan plates, then the Michigan law about signage on Michigan plated vans doesn't apply. And as someone pointed out, there are lots of them that are used by private parties for private purposes like hauling stuff from Lowe's to a house they're renovating. If such a van passes Officer Vader, how does he state his particularized suspicion that THAT PARTICULAR VAN, though plated elsewhere, is A) a commercial vehicle and not a POV; and B) engaging in intrastate commerce and needs to be checked?

A van can be assumed to carry commercial cargo and be used for hire,

Says who?

if there is a doubt, they can hold the driver until they get a search warrant and do a search but more likely than not it will be the driver would be smart to tell the truth.

I don't recall the exact citation, but SCOTUS has already ruled that in a situation in which someone has to obtain a warrant, the driver can be held for no longer than it takes to write a traffic citation. I don't remember that they specified any number of minutes, but the (what? Perhaps even a couple hours in some cases?) time to go get a warrant surely exceeds that.

I'm not saying that it would be wise to test that by driving off, but the ruling exists.

AND hate to break this news to you but Bob brought up a good point, a lot of states are now working with ICE and because ICE officers have been known to do ride along, ICE doesn't need permission to search a vehicle in this state because we have four border entry points and they are charged with protecting the border, negating the need for the MSP or local LEOs to even worry about search and seizure laws.

All that is is evidence that the Bill of Rights is in the last throes. That I seem to be the only one that cares about it might be even sadder.

"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause." ―Padmé Amidala, to Bail Organa

AMonger · Oct 28, 2010

bobwg said:
He asked her a question and that was it but that is not proof he didnt see something or think there was a good reason to stop her unless you some sort of mind reader? you sound like you just hate cops

You mean---(gasp)--cops lie? C'MON! Do you expect me to believe that? Next you'll be telling me they plant evidence on people or use excessive force or alter evidence in the lab or something. Where do you think we live, CUBA or NORTH KOREA? I mean, sure, we expect cops to do that stuff there, right?

Do I hate cops? Let me think...

I used to want to be a cop. My pre-correction eyesight disqualified me. I was ****ed. But as some hick country song says, "Thank God for unanswered prayers," because older cops who won't tase people for laughs and who actually think we're a constitutional republic in which the People are the owners of the country and the cops are our employees are being replaced by ex-jarheads who were taught over in Iraq to kick doors in and humiliate Haji in front of his family.

Believers in the Bill of Rights no longer fit in in law enforcement. Aren't we so much better off?

bobwg · Oct 29, 2010

AMonger said:
You mean---(gasp)--cops lie? C'MON! Do you expect me to believe that? Next you'll be telling me they plant evidence on people or use excessive force or alter evidence in the lab or something. Where do you think we live, CUBA or NORTH KOREA? I mean, sure, we expect cops to do that stuff there, right?

Do I hate cops? Let me think...

I used to want to be a cop. My pre-correction eyesight disqualified me. I was ****ed. But as some hick country song says, "Thank God for unanswered prayers," because older cops who won't tase people for laughs and who actually think we're a constitutional republic in which the People are the owners of the country and the cops are our employees are being replaced by ex-jarheads who were taught over in Iraq to kick doors in and humiliate Haji in front of his family.

Believers in the Bill of Rights no longer fit in in law enforcement. Aren't we so much better off?

I did not say cops lie you are the one that seem to think that cop would lie and all or most new cops lie and just because a cop was a Marine does not indicate he would be a bad cop and you are insulting the Marines with your statement about them humiiliating Iraqis There are alot of good cops and good Marines yes there may be some rotten apples in the mix just like there are rotten apples in trucking/expediting

copdsux · Oct 29, 2010

Just a thought: Would any of you, including myself, thank the police, for stopping you at "0 dark 30", to ask about your safety?

AMonger · Oct 29, 2010

copdsux said:
Just a thought: Would any of you, including myself, thank the police, for stopping you at "0 dark 30", to ask about your safety?

Absofreakinglutely not. How many times a night do you want to get pulled over? If you didn't call a cop, you don't need a cop. Cops are like umpires; they're not supposed to be noticed unless the Schumer hits the fan.

x06col · Oct 30, 2010

AMonger said:
Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

The probable cause doctrine is part of the bedrock on which our system of jurisprudence is based. Using your logic, the cops should set up roadblocks everywhere, 24 hours a day, and search every car that comes by, pat down everybody they come across, and have the keys to every home in the country and pop in for un-announced inspections. After all, we want them to prevent crimes, right? If we're going to go that far, let's repeal the third amendment and just quarter cops in every home. Who'd break the law if a cop was sitting in your living room, monitoring everything you say and do? And if somebody did, he wouldn't have very far to go to respond afterwards, would he?

Kinda interesting if you think about it. Hussein didn't have any problems with foolishness. Iraq only started to have problems after we, touchy feely westerners intervened. kinda scary just how much is enough or too much. Kinda like trying to stick a needle in a baloon slowly.

cheri1122 · Oct 30, 2010

copdsux said:
Just a thought: Would any of you, including myself, thank the police, for stopping you at "0 dark 30", to ask about your safety?

I didn't do it in person, [wasn't there when it happened], but I once wrote a letter to the local paper to thank the cop who pulled my Dad over, after seeing my 7 yr old daughter get in his van at school. The cop was suspicious, and I appreciated that he wanted to be sure - it could have been a stranger picking her up, right?
And, AMonger: the cop who pulled the aunt over may have been a bit paternalistic, but I don't think he was overbearing - it was a different world back then, when cops [like truck drivers] often tried to help folks who appeared to maybe need it.

AMonger · Oct 30, 2010

bobwg said:
I did not say cops lie you are the one that seem to think that cop would lie and all or most new cops lie and just because a cop was a Marine does not indicate he would be a bad cop and you are insulting the Marines with your statement about them humiiliating Iraqis There are alot of good cops and good Marines yes there may be some rotten apples in the mix just like there are rotten apples in trucking/expediting

Actually, you did say that cops lie. You suggested that the cop that pulled over my aunt told her he was just wondering what she was doing on the road so late when he had a different reason.

Go back and take a look at that link I posted a few posts back. Ask yourself if you want that deputy pulling you or your wife or daughter over at 3 in the morning on a deserted back road. There's a picture of him in his uniform. Tell me if that makes you more confident in him or less. Be sure to read the comments after the story. I posted a comment there myself.

Former troops with combat experience must never be allowed to be a cop.

20-30 years ago, what you said was likely true: the bad apples were the exception to the rule in law enforcement. A sea change has occurred, and the reverse is true now; the honest cops who know and respect the limits placed on them by the Bill of Rights are in the minority now, as this very thread demonstrates.

AMonger · Oct 30, 2010

cheri1122 said:
I didn't do it in person, [wasn't there when it happened], but I once wrote a letter to the local paper to thank the cop who pulled my Dad over, after seeing my 7 yr old daughter get in his van at school. The cop was suspicious, and I appreciated that he wanted to be sure - it could have been a stranger picking her up, right?
And, AMonger: the cop who pulled the aunt over may have been a bit paternalistic, but I don't think he was overbearing - it was a different world back then, when cops [like truck drivers] often tried to help folks who appeared to maybe need it.

I'll agree with you on one thing: it was a different world back then.

RLENT · Oct 30, 2010

x06col said:
Kinda interesting if you think about it. Hussein didn't have any problems with foolishness.

Really ?

I'd say Saddam Hussein had quite a problem with foolishness - mostly his own .....

x06col said:
Iraq only started to have problems after we, touchy feely westerners intervened.

I dunno Col ...... you maybe took the heavily abbreviated World History course ?

Iraq has been around going on oh, I dunno .... about what - 10,000 years or so ?

It's been called various things throughout history (Sumer, Babylonia, Assyria, etc.) .... to say they only started to have problems after westerners intervened is ..... ahhh .... not quite accurate ......

Even if you are only referring to modern Iraq under Saddam, you might wanna to have a little look at the issue of human rights violations during that time - where torture, murder, deportation, forced disappearances, assassination, and the use of chemical weapons against civilian populations were not entirely rare .....

Of course, if one doesn't view such things as foolish, then one might tend to not see them as a problems ....

Mebbe you wanna expand yer thoughts a little to clarify ?

RLENT · Oct 30, 2010

AMonger said:
Former troops with combat experience must never be allowed to be a cop.

Not entirely dissimilar to former prosecutors becoming judges ..... often of the hanging variety ....

Can't say that I disagree ..... I've actually (mostly) written a reply to this thread about this very thing ... I'll finish it up and send it along ....

RLENT · Oct 30, 2010

bobwg said:
you are the one that seem to think that cop would lie and all or most new cops lie

Corruption in the ranks of law enforcement being not entirely rare is well-documented fact ..... the decline of morality (where lying is not considered to be a big deal) is also well-documented ......

Corruption and criminal conduct in the military are much less well documented .... probably because the individuals at the higher levels justify it in various ways (national security, troop moral, etc.)

Modern record-keeping systems using computers to store vast amounts of data, the military's inherent need for "intel" and to document thigns, brave individuals who are willing to risk their lives in exposing criminal behavior, and organizations like Wikileaks may be about to change that though ....

While I'm sure that there are some good cops out there ... somewhere .... most of the ones I have had the displeasure of being associated with have been immoral or corrupt in one way or another .... everything from cheating on their wives ..... to doing other "stuff" when they are supposed to be working ..... to graft in one form or another .... to outright perjury on the witness stand ....

bobwg said:
and just because a cop was a Marine does not indicate he would be a bad cop ..

No, it doesn't necessarily indicate that .... however.....

.... someone who has been a Marine (or in any branch of the Armed Forces) has been trained and indoctrinated under a particular regime which has been intentionally designed to produce someone who is compliant and who will, immediately, and without question, follow orders ... that's the way the military operates ...

Not to hard to see how that could produce an individual with a certain mindset (however warped), who tends to think that:

A. all individuals ought to similarly obey various authority figures, and

B. believes that as an "authority figure" (say as a law enforcement officer), they themselves ought to be obeyed ..... immediately and without question ....

If one understands freedom at all, one will understand that the above is the exact antithesis of it .....

Don't look to cops or the military for freedom ..... it ain't there .....

Keep in mind that both are security organizations ... and remember what old Ben Franklin had to say on the matter:

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."

Additionally, beyond that, many of those who have served recently (last 10 years) are coming from a frame of reference of actually having been at war and in combat ....

And that's a frame of reference that does not necessarily lend itself to thinking of oneself as someone whose function is to be a servant of the public - but rather towards viewing the game they are involved in as a "war" of sorts ..... and the battle lines being drawn in an "us vs them" manner ..... with the "them" being the general public, and the "us" being the cops .....

bobwg said:
and you are insulting the Marines with your statement about them humiiliating Iraqis

Well, unfortunately for you (and the Marines, and other branches) there have been numerous instances shown of recent criminal conduct of that variety on the part of the military ....

Most folks (sadly) are largely unaware of much it .... you won't find much reporting on it in the mainstream media - on either the left (MSNBC) or the right (Faux News) .... one has to make an effort to find it .... and before you even get to that point, you have to be willing, and actually want, to know ...

And most folks would much rather prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of it ... and just attempt to deal with the occasional blips of it that hit their own personal radar screens by either:

A. averting their eyes (saying it didn't happen), or

B. that it was somehow justified ..... (which, of course, is far, far worse than A)

bobwg said:
There are alot of good cops and good Marines yes there may be some rotten apples in the mix just like there are rotten apples in trucking/expediting

Please see both A and B immediately above.

Hightech_Hobo · Oct 30, 2010

Since 9/11 I believe there has been a noticable build up of almost all enforcement agencies. Too much buildup in my opinion. All these agencies have been given more power than they have ever had before. This brings to mind the Quote..."Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

The Biggest reason I switched from a straight truck to a van was to "get away" from so much regulation and exposure to this new found power of these authorities. It was mentioned at the time i made the change that Van would soon be in the cross hairs of these authorities.

I don't have a problem with authorities who have the proper checks and balances. But 9/11 has given the ability to skirt around these checks and balances(along with about 100 other current social issues..(i.e. Drugs, immigration, gun running....)

I can't say where the balance should be given the world today but I think it is fair to say that law enforcement has been "Militarized" and I am very uncomfortable with the current situation.....

skyraider · Oct 30, 2010

Lets see, my cv moves my grand kids, wood, metal,groceries,my dogs, acts as a camper, helps the neighbor move stuff. so I need all kinds of licenses and such. Cant wait for cops to start inspecting families camping in parks, that will b real nice and all. Hey , don't forget about weigh stations for those 40 foot motor homes and such that pull suvs behind them . Now weigh-stations will have lots of fun with that and the truckers will love it because they wont feel like they are being single out anymore , so,,bring it on and lets red tape ourselves into total grid lock so no one can complain that they are being singled out. It appears we are all jealous of someone elses situation and we want them to be inspected too. whiney butts.

greg334 · Oct 30, 2010

Rlent,
Would you say then in historical context we are not better off since the age of information and enlightenment has taken place than say the 1930's or the 1880's?

I first question the premise that we live in horrible times without evidence. Most of this feeling is first borne out of a time when we had a large amount of people trying to openly destroy the country and because not one of use here or alive for that matter know what real freedom is and how law enforcement has been worst in the past, a lot worst.

As a society we don't even know what it is like to live in a totalitarian state, having big brother watch over us or anything like that. With that, there is an absolute ignorance that damage is not done when an officer investigates some guy in an unmarked van who may be illegally hauling freight, but rather when we go to a doctor's office and don't hesitate to give information to a stranger without any protection to what they do with that information or when our identity has been used for activities that we are not aware of. It is the former that we should be screaming about, it is what the government wants to do in electronic record keeping and what lack of safeguards there truly are in keeping that data safe. The latter has already been proven, but no one seems to care about that. Instead they worry about the cop who pulls someone over in a van.

I also question the hearsay complain in the OP, if Michigan was illegally harassing CVs, then it would be an issue outside of this forum and I have not yet read or heard through the three MSP officers that there is anything going on like that. There is a stepped up effort to get people compliant, but that is in other states too.

I also wonder why people just assume that their laws are applicable in other states - it seems to be a problem for those who travel to other countries and then cry about being nailed for some violation of the law of that country and expect to get away with it because of the leniency of the American Justice system.

I have tried to find out where in our Constitution that spells out a difference between the law enforcement officer and a citizen.

bobwg · Oct 30, 2010

Ok there are thousands of cops and military for those of you that think most or all cops and military are corrupt ,crimminal , bad where are the documents and figures ? show me the numbers and documents to prove that. You want to bad mouth cops and the military again show me the proof. I am from the show me state and on this topic I say show me the proof