Michigan illegally harassing CVs?

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
This is a smart cop, he to knows that the Michigan dot rules are screwed up and no one can really define them, so he gets his kicks letting u or an attorney figure it out, its his thing I guess, seems to me the police would have better things to do, maybe they could go get some more donuts.:D
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
This is a smart cop, he to knows that the Michigan dot rules are screwed up and no one can really define them, so he gets his kicks letting u or an attorney figure it out, its his thing I guess, seems to me the police would have better things to do, maybe they could go get some more donuts.:D

There you go again crying about a cop doing his job
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
There you go again crying about a cop doing his job
How many times have we heard that about a tyrant--that he was just doing his job or just following orders. Let me see...where have I heard that in the past?...

Oh, yeah, it was in a movie. But I couldn't understand it BECAUSE THE DIALOGUE WAS IN GERMAN!

I don't want to hear any more crap about just doing his job. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and WRONG is even wronger, and it doesn't become right because you deposit a paycheck for doing it, or because you get to wear a state-issued costume.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
How many times have we heard that about a tyrant--that he was just doing his job or just following orders. Let me see...where have I heard that in the past?...

Oh, yeah, it was in a movie. But I couldn't understand it BECAUSE THE DIALOGUE WAS IN GERMAN!

I don't want to hear any more crap about just doing his job. Right is right and wrong is wrong, and WRONG is even wronger, and it doesn't become right because you deposit a paycheck for doing it, or because you get to wear a state-issued costume.

ok lets just get rid of all cops and not enforce any laws
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
ok lets just get rid of all cops and not enforce any laws
Seems a little extreme. I was thinking more along the lines of making sure cops understand that the Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land, and that if they violate a citizen's rights, they'll be criminally prosecuted. The ones that don't like it and quit are the ones that we're better off without.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
Seems a little extreme. I was thinking more along the lines of making sure cops understand that the Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land, and that if they violate a citizen's rights, they'll be criminally prosecuted. The ones that don't like it and quit are the ones that we're better off without.

so how is does he violate your rights if he pulls your van over and gives you a ticket for not having markings on it?
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
so how is does he violate your rights if he pulls your van over and gives you a ticket for not having markings on it?
First, I'm speaking generally, overall, not just on the van issue.

But back to the van issue, having a government agent impede my travel without probable cause to believe that I've committed a crime is a violation. The law is, in itself, a travesty. But if we're going to call the law just, then it's still a violation if he doesn't know that I'm driving commercially. If he sees me driving down the road in a cargo van, he has no way of knowing whether I'm hauling cargo or driving down the road in a cargo van that just happens to be my POV. If he saw me load up at a dock and sign a BOL, I suppose he'd have probable cause to believe I'm engaging in commerce, but not if he just sees me driving down the road.

When I was a child, I was riding in a car driven by my aunt. She had just dropped off my uncle at work and it was like 0-dark-thirty when most people were in bed. A cop pulled her over and asked what she was doing out on the roads that late. He had no reason to pull her over whatsoever except to satisfy his curiosity.

Now, that was about 40 years ago, and before the militarization of the police, so it wasn't nearly as offensive as it would be today. Cops must be turned back into peace officers, not revenue agents, and definitely not soldiers like most of them seem to think they are now.

I've heard but haven't verified that the feds maintain a database of cops who have been convicted of things that disqualify former cops from ever being a cop again. That list could be expanded 1000-fold, and still not get all the abusive cops off the street.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
First, I'm speaking generally, overall, not just on the van issue.

But back to the van issue, having a government agent impede my travel without probable cause to believe that I've committed a crime is a violation. The law is, in itself, a travesty. But if we're going to call the law just, then it's still a violation if he doesn't know that I'm driving commercially. If he sees me driving down the road in a cargo van, he has no way of knowing whether I'm hauling cargo or driving down the road in a cargo van that just happens to be my POV. If he saw me load up at a dock and sign a BOL, I suppose he'd have probable cause to believe I'm engaging in commerce, but not if he just sees me driving down the road.

When I was a child, I was riding in a car driven by my aunt. She had just dropped off my uncle at work and it was like 0-dark-thirty when most people were in bed. A cop pulled her over and asked what she was doing out on the roads that late. He had no reason to pull her over whatsoever except to satisfy his curiosity.

Now, that was about 40 years ago, and before the militarization of the police, so it wasn't nearly as offensive as it would be today. Cops must be turned back into peace officers, not revenue agents, and definitely not soldiers like most of them seem to think they are now.

I've heard but haven't verified that the feds maintain a database of cops who have been convicted of things that disqualify former cops from ever being a cop again. That list could be expanded 1000-fold, and still not get all the abusive cops off the street.

you sound like those same cry babie that get stopped for speeding or running a red light
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
you sound like those same cry babie that get stopped for speeding or running a red light
I haven't been stopped for anything in nearly 20 years. I'm hardly a crybaby. I'm just someone who sees the Bill of Rights circling the drain (actually, most of it has already disappeared down the drain), and someone who agrees with William Blackstone, when he said, “Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.”

Pro Libertate: Fallujah, U.S.A.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
I haven't been stopped for anything in nearly 20 years. I'm hardly a crybaby. I'm just someone who sees the Bill of Rights circling the drain (actually, most of it has already disappeared down the drain), and someone who agrees with William Blackstone, when he said, “Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.”

Pro Libertate: Fallujah, U.S.A.

Lets see you complain because some cop pulls your aunt over late at night 1. did the nieghborhood have a high crime rate? 2. night time? was there enough light the cop could see it was a woman and kid in the car before he stopped the car? 3. so the cop should not try to prevent crime just wait til it happens and respond afterwards?
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Lets see you complain because some cop pulls your aunt over late at night 1. did the nieghborhood have a high crime rate?

Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

2. night time?

Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

was there enough light the cop could see it was a woman and kid in the car before he stopped the car?

Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?

3. so the cop should not try to prevent crime just wait til it happens and respond afterwards?

The probable cause doctrine is part of the bedrock on which our system of jurisprudence is based. Using your logic, the cops should set up roadblocks everywhere, 24 hours a day, and search every car that comes by, pat down everybody they come across, and have the keys to every home in the country and pop in for un-announced inspections. After all, we want them to prevent crimes, right? If we're going to go that far, let's repeal the third amendment and just quarter cops in every home. Who'd break the law if a cop was sitting in your living room, monitoring everything you say and do? And if somebody did, he wouldn't have very far to go to respond afterwards, would he?
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



The probable cause doctrine is part of the bedrock on which our system of jurisprudence is based. Using your logic, the cops should set up roadblocks everywhere, 24 hours a day, and search every car that comes by, pat down everybody they come across, and have the keys to every home in the country and pop in for un-announced inspections. After all, we want them to prevent crimes, right? If we're going to go that far, let's repeal the third amendment and just quarter cops in every home. Who'd break the law if a cop was sitting in your living room, monitoring everything you say and do? And if somebody did, he wouldn't have very far to go to respond afterwards, would he?
lets see high crime area will assume yes late at night most people home sleeping or what ever streets basically empty and will assume there was not enough light to see that it is a woman and child in the car

Probable cause I wasnt there so I dont know if he had what he thought was probable cause and you were a kid what? 5 or 10 just a wild guess so he shouldnt stop the car to check if everything is ok
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
A 16-foot straight truck, with a sleeper, if it is used solely to transport family members or personal property, and is never, ever, under any circumstances used commercially, then it requires no lettering on the doors, either. But it's reasonable to assume it's a commercial vehicle in violation of the law if you see one driving down the road sans lettering. It's the same with a cargo van.

Since the overwhelmingly vast majority of cargo vans are used for commercial purposes and are not, in fact, used for personal vehicles, with those being used for personal vehicles being the rare exception, it's perfectly logical to assume that a cargo van without lettering driving down the road is in violation of the law, and that's all the probable cause an officer needs.

If you are using a cargo van as a personal vehicle and you get pulled over enough times that if becomes annoying, then putting NOT FOR HIRE on the side doors in letters big enough to be read from the median while zooming by might not be a bad idea.

As for being pulled over late at night, or any other time of day, Probable Cause is required to write you a ticket, not to stop you. The burden for a traffic stop is Reasonable Suspicion. That is defined as anything leading an officer to reasonably suspect a violation of the law. It is a much lower burden than probable cause. For example, if you're a White Guy driving a Red Camaro in a Black part of town in the middle of the night, it's reasonable to suspect a violation of the law, and the police can pull you over and give you a closer look.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
lets see high crime area will assume yes

You know what they say about assuming. It's reasonable for a cop to suspect EVERYBODY DRIVING IN A HIGH CRIME AREA IS BREAKING THE LAW? That's absolutely moronic and it's what tyrannies are made of. That interpretation would be news to the Supreme Court. It's ridiculous on its face.

late at night most people home sleeping or what ever streets basically empty and will assume there was not enough light to see that it is a woman and child in the car

Probable cause I wasnt there so I dont know if he had what he thought was probable cause and you were a kid what? 5 or 10 just a wild guess so he shouldnt stop the car to check if everything is ok

Hey-ell no. My aunt was minding her own business, conducting legal affairs and no one had any articulable suspicion that she was acting illegally. It's dark and a woman has a 5 year old in the car and the cop can't see inside so he should stop the car? That's positively idiotic and illegal. No wonder the Bill of Rights is on life support.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
A 16-foot straight truck, with a sleeper, if it is used solely to transport family members or personal property, and is never, ever, under any circumstances used commercially, then it requires no lettering on the doors, either. But it's reasonable to assume it's a commercial vehicle in violation of the law if you see one driving down the road sans lettering. It's the same with a cargo van.

With the straight truck, yes. A van, no. Something that requires a CDL to drive, yes. Otherwise, no. Not reasonable. There are way too many non-commercial vans on the road for that to be an reasonable, articulable suspicion.

Since the overwhelmingly vast majority of cargo vans are used for commercial purposes and are not, in fact, used for personal vehicles, with those being used for personal vehicles being the rare exception, it's perfectly logical to assume that a cargo van without lettering driving down the road is in violation of the law, and that's all the probable cause an officer needs.

You're wrong here, too, but for the moment, let's assume otherwise. So the stormtrooper stops you, and comes to the window and demands ze papiers, bitte, and you hand him your DL, insurance, and registration. He does with them what cops do, and he asks you whether you're hauling cargo. You decline to answer.

We've already discussed how cargo vans not registered in Michigan or not hauling intrastate aren't affected by the lettering law. So if you don't tell him you're hauling something picked up in Michigan and destined for a Michigan address, how does he know?

If you are using a cargo van as a personal vehicle and you get pulled over enough times that if becomes annoying, then putting NOT FOR HIRE on the side doors in letters big enough to be read from the median while zooming by might not be a bad idea.

Oh, I have a sign I'd put on all right. They wouldn't like it, nor would the moderators like it if I posted it here. Nor would Jesus like it.


As for being pulled over late at night, or any other time of day, Probable Cause is required to write you a ticket, not to stop you. The burden for a traffic stop is Reasonable Suspicion.

I was speaking rather broadly and imprecisely, yes. But he must still have an articulable suspicion that you were breaking the law. In our scenario, he doesn't.

That is defined as anything leading an officer to reasonably suspect a violation of the law. It is a much lower burden than probable cause. For example, if you're a White Guy driving a Red Camaro in a Black part of town in the middle of the night, it's reasonable to suspect a violation of the law, and the police can pull you over and give you a closer look.

This is another element of suspicion, or the lack thereof, more precisely, and was addressed in the Brett Darrow incident near St. Louis, in which a rogue cop detained a youngster named Brett Darrow in a commuter parking area. Darrow refused to be harassed. The cop huffed and puffed, made threats, acted like a typical modern goon who doesn't know the difference between a cop and a US Marine. He threatened to arrest Darrow for assaulting a police officer and that his report would claim that Darrow "flicked his fingers" toward him, and the other cop present would verify for Darrow that he had done this in the past and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

What he didn't know was that Darrow had not long before had a similar run-in with another rogue cop who can't pick the Bill of Rights out of a lineup if his life depended on it. It turned into a my-word-against-yours situation, so he decided to wire his car for audio and video.

I imagine you've already opened up another tab and googled this thing, so let's cut to the chase. The cop claimed he had an articulable, reasonable suspicion to detain and question Darrow because there had been instances of suicides in those parking areas, so he had the right to come check to see if Darrow was alright.

He found out he was wrong. Apparently, this particular stormtrooper was sick on the day they covered particularized suspicion in the academy. As SCOTUS has ruled, the cop needs to be able to articulate not only reasonable suspicion (which the cop who pulled over my aunt didn't even have), but particularized reasonable suspicion that the particular individual in question in that particular instance has broken the law, and so the rogue stormtrooper in St. Louis found out that the fact that OTHER people have parked in commuter lots and committed suicide didn't mean that he had a reasonable suspicion that Darrow would do so. He was rightfully fired for his threats, and Darrow was free to go. Unfortunately, the cops in the area showed their true nature by stalking him, staking out his home, etc.

The cops in the area, anyway, got a refresher course on particularized suspicion, which a Michigan cop wouldn't have when I drive by in my cargo van, just because he knows that most other cargo vans carry freight.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
With the straight truck, yes. A van, no. Something that requires a CDL to drive, yes. Otherwise, no. Not reasonable. There are way too many non-commercial vans on the road for that to be an reasonable, articulable suspicion.



You're wrong here, too, but for the moment, let's assume otherwise. So the stormtrooper stops you, and comes to the window and demands ze papiers, bitte, and you hand him your DL, insurance, and registration. He does with them what cops do, and he asks you whether you're hauling cargo. You decline to answer.

We've already discussed how cargo vans not registered in Michigan or not hauling intrastate aren't affected by the lettering law. So if you don't tell him you're hauling something picked up in Michigan and destined for a Michigan address, how does he know?



Oh, I have a sign I'd put on all right. They wouldn't like it, nor would the moderators like it if I posted it here. Nor would Jesus like it.




I was speaking rather broadly and imprecisely, yes. But he must still have an articulable suspicion that you were breaking the law. In our scenario, he doesn't.



This is another element of suspicion, or the lack thereof, more precisely, and was addressed in the Brett Darrow incident near St. Louis, in which a rogue cop detained a youngster named Brett Darrow in a commuter parking area. Darrow refused to be harassed. The cop huffed and puffed, made threats, acted like a typical modern goon who doesn't know the difference between a cop and a US Marine. He threatened to arrest Darrow for assaulting a police officer and that his report would claim that Darrow "flicked his fingers" toward him, and the other cop present would verify for Darrow that he had done this in the past and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

What he didn't know was that Darrow had not long before had a similar run-in with another rogue cop who can't pick the Bill of Rights out of a lineup if his life depended on it. It turned into a my-word-against-yours situation, so he decided to wire his car for audio and video.

I imagine you've already opened up another tab and googled this thing, so let's cut to the chase. The cop claimed he had an articulable, reasonable suspicion to detain and question Darrow because there had been instances of suicides in those parking areas, so he had the right to come check to see if Darrow was alright.

He found out he was wrong. Apparently, this particular stormtrooper was sick on the day they covered particularized suspicion in the academy. As SCOTUS has ruled, the cop needs to be able to articulate not only reasonable suspicion (which the cop who pulled over my aunt didn't even have), but particularized reasonable suspicion that the particular individual in question in that particular instance has broken the law, and so the rogue stormtrooper in St. Louis found out that the fact that OTHER people have parked in commuter lots and committed suicide didn't mean that he had a reasonable suspicion that Darrow would do so. He was rightfully fired for his threats, and Darrow was free to go. Unfortunately, the cops in the area showed their true nature by stalking him, staking out his home, etc.

The cops in the area, anyway, got a refresher course on particularized suspicion, which a Michigan cop wouldn't have when I drive by in my cargo van, just because he knows that most other cargo vans carry freight.

ok then lets do away with those boder patrol check points even though they are trying to stop illegal immigrants and drugs etc. even though all they do is stop your vehicle at the check point for moment just to ask you if you are a US citizen? , any one else in the vehicle?, and if you have van or commercial vehicle they ask what are you carrrying? after they get your answers they say go ahead your argument would be that this too should stop
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Amonger, hate to break this to you but the cops can search any commercial vehicle, a commercial vehicle is define in this state as anything used for commercial purposes, and there is no weight limits or anything like that. A van can be assumed to carry commercial cargo and be used for hire, if there is a doubt, they can hold the driver until they get a search warrant and do a search but more likely than not it will be the driver would be smart to tell the truth.

AND hate to break this news to you but Bob brought up a good point, a lot of states are now working with ICE and because ICE officers have been known to do ride along, ICE doesn't need permission to search a vehicle in this state because we have four border entry points and they are charged with protecting the border, negating the need for the MSP or local LEOs to even worry about search and seizure laws.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



Irrelevant. Did he have probable cause to believe she was committing a crime before he impeded her right to travel?



The probable cause doctrine is part of the bedrock on which our system of jurisprudence is based. Using your logic, the cops should set up roadblocks everywhere, 24 hours a day, and search every car that comes by, pat down everybody they come across, and have the keys to every home in the country and pop in for un-announced inspections. After all, we want them to prevent crimes, right? If we're going to go that far, let's repeal the third amendment and just quarter cops in every home. Who'd break the law if a cop was sitting in your living room, monitoring everything you say and do? And if somebody did, he wouldn't have very far to go to respond afterwards, would he?

40 years ago and you were a kid how do you know that the cop did not see something to think he should check this car out ? was she speeding even a little over the limit? was she going slower than the speed limit? could she a have been weaving even just a little . YOU dont know what the cop was thinking maybe he was wrong but then again maybe he did have what he thought was a legit reason to check the car out
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
40 years ago and you were a kid how do you know that the cop did not see something to think he should check this car out ? was she speeding even a little over the limit? was she going slower than the speed limit? could she a have been weaving even just a little . YOU dont know what the cop was thinking maybe he was wrong but then again maybe he did have what he thought was a legit reason to check the car out
Because he told her why he stopped her--to find out what she was doing out on the roads at 0-dark-thirty. It wasn't anything like a traffic stop where they take license and registration and such. I don't think he even did that. He just came up, asked her what she was doing out on the roads at such an hour, she answered, and he went away like a good boy. But he still illegally impeded her progress on her lawful journey just to pull her over to ask the question.
 
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