chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
Letz wrote:
Chefdennis wrote:
Chefdennis wrote:
Offended are you??? If so, you know how to deal with it....
Ft. Hood Massacre: 12 Dead, 31 Wounded
- Thread starter Pilgrim
- Start date
Sort of, but what is happening with Muslims goes beyond run-o-the-mill religious bigotry, which is why I stayed away from using the term. Racial bigotry is the more mild form of racism, and thus pedestrian religious bigotry doesn't really cover it.
Well, that statement, if allowed to stand on its own, is true. However, if applied to the situation at Ft Hood, the statement makes assumptions that are not yet known. He's a Muslim, we know that, but is he a radical Muslim? We don't know. And we certainly can't say that it's all that obvious that he is. He may very well turn out to be, but at this point we simply don't know. Not for sure.
Also, was it in fact a terrorist act? Does the fact that he shot and killed someone make it a terrorist act? Does the fact that he's a Muslim make it a terrorist act, and therefor make him a terrorist? What differentiates this incident from, say, the terrorist shooting at Virginia Tech, or the terrorist milk man who shot up the Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania, or that terrorist Jason Rodriguez who shot up his former employer's architecture office in Orlando?
In order to answer that question, assumptions have to be made. We have to assume that because he's a Muslim, he must therefore be a radical one, and because he's a radical Muslim, his act of aggression is, and can only be, a terrorist act. The fact that he was freaking out about being deployed to the Middle East gets dismissed in all these assumptions.
Yes, it was planned out, but from what we know at this point, he didn't begin making his plans until July, right after he was transferred to Ft Hood expressly for the purpose of then being deployed to the Afghanistan or Iraq. I'm not sure that a lot of training and practice with the firearms were necessarily required to do what he did, however. As one military spokesman noted, it seems incongruous that one man with two hand guns is able to do such an amount of damage, but when you factor in that it was a large number of people bunched up in close quarters, and with building walls providing ample opportunities for missed shots to ricochet and hit multiple targets, it becomes much more plausible.
Again, while it is a likely assumption, it is still an assumption. We don't know, for sure, if those postings were written by him.
If you remove all of the assumptions, and therefore the conclusions based on those assumptions, and stick to the known facts, the only conclusion that can be reached is we don't have enough information on which to base a conclusion.
Yeah, but then again, there are facts, and then there are facts. Just take a look at the number of facts that aren't facts at all, but assumptions or blatant illusory corollaries being assumed to be facts. There is just a snotload of he-said, she-said here that is being received as stone-cold fact, when it's not. Again, it may very well turn out to be fact, but it's not at this point. Nobody knows.
Incidentally, it was badly presented on my part insofar as context, but the part where I said, "I think he did it for the reasons I think he did it, therefore he did it. Are we done yet?" was really more of an illustration of thought process that some here, perhaps including you, would have if you were one of the jury of my peers. It's not a thought process that I would welcome for my jury to have if I were on trial for something I didn't do.
Oh, that's OK. Any missing pertinent facts can be filled in with assumptions. Heck, we can even assume that pertinent facts are being omitted, which is even better, because we then get to make up even more facts.
The Egyptian pilot who told air traffic controllers over the radio that he was planning on flying a plane into a building in New York to commit suicide, while thwarted, was all the recipe that bin Laden needed for 9/11. A line by line full report wasn't needed. And they don't need one for this one, either.
I know. I can see what's happening here. There is some speculation going on, which is fine, but a lot of it is being done based on assumptions passed off as fact. And, like I said, I'd sure hate to have a lot of you on my jury if I were ever on trial for something I didn't do.
I'm speculating about this just like everyone else is, it's just that I'm trying to speculate within the facts and within the bounds of logic and reason. You know what I think? I think he's a lifelong Muslim, but he wasn't a radical one until two things happened, and even at that I don't think he's a radical Muslim. But one, he had to listen to returning soldiers describe the horrors of war, and he had to listen to it on a daily basis. At that point, if he were a radical Muslim, he wouldn't have been scared, he would have listened with glee and joy the stories where Muslims were fighting, killing and maiming the infidels. But what he heard didn't fill him with joy, it filled him with fear. The thought of being deployed "mortified him," in the words of his cousin and of others who know him well.
Secondly, he was in personal conflict with the war itself in that it was and is largely a war against Muslims. Radical Muslims, to be sure, but Muslims all the same. When his opposition became known, and the fact that he's a Muslim became known, his fellow comrades harassed him for it, which led to his disillusion of the military. At that time he even tried legal avenues to get out of the military, including reimbursing the military for his schooling. When that failed, he resigned himself that he would stay in the military, put in his time, and get out when his contract was up. Further dejected and disillusioned with the military, he job performance suffered. Either by the luck of the draw, or by punishment or, perhaps in his mind a persecution for being a Muslim, he was transferred to Ft Hood for the purpose of getting ready to be deployed to the Middle East.
So, feeling rejected, disillusioned and possibly persecuted, he turned deeper into Islam to find solace and a belonging to help cope with the fear of being deployed, of having to possibly fight other Muslims himself or play a support role in those who will. In his mind, a two-gun version of a suicide bombing gave him an out, a way to avoid being deployed and a way to get into Heaven, all in one whack. In his mind, that was preferable to standing in the middle of the desert pееing in your pants waiting for one of your fellow soldiers to kill you with friendly fire.
That's my speculation, anyway.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Sorry shelled one but ...
Any way you cut it, it is a terrorist act. The examples you gave are also terrorist acts and there are even a lot more that should be considered terrorist acts. His religion comes into play, like others when they prepare themselves for this with the intent to die - which he intended to by all accounts.
Whether or not he was 'freaking out' is not relative to his actions as far as the victims are concern, he deserves to be punished regardless what his reasoning is but it bring back the point I brought up a while ago, we are seeing more and more things happen on bases and by military personal which points to the problems of their ability to handle stress while in the military. The military has for the most part been the experimental ground for some forms of accommodation and social engineering which has actually seem to hurt us with the people who are passed through a system that should be catching them.
Any way you cut it, it is a terrorist act. The examples you gave are also terrorist acts and there are even a lot more that should be considered terrorist acts. His religion comes into play, like others when they prepare themselves for this with the intent to die - which he intended to by all accounts.
Whether or not he was 'freaking out' is not relative to his actions as far as the victims are concern, he deserves to be punished regardless what his reasoning is but it bring back the point I brought up a while ago, we are seeing more and more things happen on bases and by military personal which points to the problems of their ability to handle stress while in the military. The military has for the most part been the experimental ground for some forms of accommodation and social engineering which has actually seem to hurt us with the people who are passed through a system that should be catching them.
I bring up the examples I used because there are some, many, who would consider the Ft Hood incident as terrorism, but not the Amish schoolhouse incident. The question is why? I mean, I may have missed it, or my memory is failing, but I don't recall anyone calling that milkman (a misnomer, since he actually drove a bulk milk tanker truck) in Pennsylvania a terrorist. He planned the attack in advance, it wasn't like he was driving along and happened upon a gun on the side of the road in front of the school and took advantage of the opportunity. No one called the shooter at Virginia Tech a terrorist, also planned the attack. No one is calling the shooter in Orlando a terrorist, also planned the attack. But everybody is calling this guy a terrorist? Why?
If the guy in Orlando was screaming "Remember the Alamo!" while he was shooting, would that qualify it as an act of terrorism? By all accounts he is simply a disgruntled former worker who finally snapped. Is that what terrorism is now? By all accounts, the doctor at Ft Hood became more and more disillusioned with the military, not to mentioned less and less gruntled, and he finally snapped at the impending deployment to Afghanistan. The fact that he brought Islam into the mix may or may not be a factor. Meaning, he may have done the exact same thing if he was Robert Johnson from Indianola, MS instead of Nidal Hasan from Arlington, VA.
Fact is, the cornerstone of Islamic terrorism is to kill innocents, even more so that military. Soldiers who die are not effective as a terror weapon in the same manner as innocent civilians on the street who are killed. Hasan went after military personnel who were about to be deployed, not innocents as would be the case with a normal terrorist attack. It could be (a.k.a., more speculation) that he was trying to eliminate potential killers of Muslims. But if you remove the "Muslim Factor" it sure looks like nothing more than a disgruntled worker attacking his co-workers. The question is, was the "Muslim Factor" a major, minor, or non-existent factor in all of this. Nobody knows. His religion almost certainly came into play, since that's the norm for any religious person to have their religion factor in to nearly every aspect of their lives. What about the milkman's religion? He prepared himself to die. Same with the Asian student at Virginia Tech. I wonder what his religion is? Jason Rodriguez, I have no idea, but a likely guess is Catholic. He was arrested, peacefully, at his mother's home. So maybe Catholic, or maybe no religion at all. Rodriguez is pretty messed up, tho, and apparently has been for a while.
"Whether or not he was 'freaking out' is not relative to his actions as far as the victims are concern..."
Nor, really, is anything else related to his motives, be it Islam or whatever.
As far as the people being able to handle the stress of the military, and really whether we as a society are properly preparing them to cope with stress in general, which helps one cope with major stress, like that of the military, the last time I commented on the subject I had a new one unceremoniously ripped for me by Ark. I'm inclined to decline to venture into this area again. Still sore from before.
Incidentally, the Virginia Tech shooting? Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 and wounded at least 20, all with just two hand guns, just like Dr Hasan. Where did Dr Nadal Hasan do his undergraduate work? Uhm, Virginia Tech. Coincidence? Or should we be looking more closely at Virginia Tech? I dunno. Maybe the recipe and inspiration for what Dr Hasan did was provided by Cho. Maybe they're totally unrelated. I dunno.
If the guy in Orlando was screaming "Remember the Alamo!" while he was shooting, would that qualify it as an act of terrorism? By all accounts he is simply a disgruntled former worker who finally snapped. Is that what terrorism is now? By all accounts, the doctor at Ft Hood became more and more disillusioned with the military, not to mentioned less and less gruntled, and he finally snapped at the impending deployment to Afghanistan. The fact that he brought Islam into the mix may or may not be a factor. Meaning, he may have done the exact same thing if he was Robert Johnson from Indianola, MS instead of Nidal Hasan from Arlington, VA.
Fact is, the cornerstone of Islamic terrorism is to kill innocents, even more so that military. Soldiers who die are not effective as a terror weapon in the same manner as innocent civilians on the street who are killed. Hasan went after military personnel who were about to be deployed, not innocents as would be the case with a normal terrorist attack. It could be (a.k.a., more speculation) that he was trying to eliminate potential killers of Muslims. But if you remove the "Muslim Factor" it sure looks like nothing more than a disgruntled worker attacking his co-workers. The question is, was the "Muslim Factor" a major, minor, or non-existent factor in all of this. Nobody knows. His religion almost certainly came into play, since that's the norm for any religious person to have their religion factor in to nearly every aspect of their lives. What about the milkman's religion? He prepared himself to die. Same with the Asian student at Virginia Tech. I wonder what his religion is? Jason Rodriguez, I have no idea, but a likely guess is Catholic. He was arrested, peacefully, at his mother's home. So maybe Catholic, or maybe no religion at all. Rodriguez is pretty messed up, tho, and apparently has been for a while.
"Whether or not he was 'freaking out' is not relative to his actions as far as the victims are concern..."
Nor, really, is anything else related to his motives, be it Islam or whatever.
As far as the people being able to handle the stress of the military, and really whether we as a society are properly preparing them to cope with stress in general, which helps one cope with major stress, like that of the military, the last time I commented on the subject I had a new one unceremoniously ripped for me by Ark. I'm inclined to decline to venture into this area again. Still sore from before.
Incidentally, the Virginia Tech shooting? Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 and wounded at least 20, all with just two hand guns, just like Dr Hasan. Where did Dr Nadal Hasan do his undergraduate work? Uhm, Virginia Tech. Coincidence? Or should we be looking more closely at Virginia Tech? I dunno. Maybe the recipe and inspiration for what Dr Hasan did was provided by Cho. Maybe they're totally unrelated. I dunno.
The idea that because he happens to be muslim and we are fighting a war against radical muslims, started by radical muslims, is no different than Italians fighting other Italians or Germans fighting other Germans in WWII.
He was well aware when he joined the Army that he may be called upon to serve in a war such as this. This mess started back in 1979. It was WELL known that there was a very good chance that sooner or later we would have to fight them. He joined anyway.
We speculate because that makes things like this easier to deal with. The alterative would be to strike out at other muslims in the streets. Getting things off your chest in here is far batter, don't you think?
Our rants about radical muslims is NO different than the feelings Americans had about Japan on Dec 7. It was not racial hatred or bigotry. Those are not rational. The hatred was brought upon the Japanese by the actions of their military. They attacked us. It is no different now.
He was well aware when he joined the Army that he may be called upon to serve in a war such as this. This mess started back in 1979. It was WELL known that there was a very good chance that sooner or later we would have to fight them. He joined anyway.
We speculate because that makes things like this easier to deal with. The alterative would be to strike out at other muslims in the streets. Getting things off your chest in here is far batter, don't you think?
Our rants about radical muslims is NO different than the feelings Americans had about Japan on Dec 7. It was not racial hatred or bigotry. Those are not rational. The hatred was brought upon the Japanese by the actions of their military. They attacked us. It is no different now.
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
As i have said, i have stayed away from the islamic/ muslum stuff for a while now out of respect for a member here and his family...but...as far as i am concerned what is going on in this thread is not taking on the whole islamic / muslum movement (they are not a religion, they are a political party and much more using religion as a tool to gain their desired end result) it is about holding up one person within that movement.....
Turtle you rationalize all you want, the guy was a muslum, he enlisted in the military and knew from the time he enlisted he could go to a war zone...(chance of him having to kill another muslum were nill because of his position) but as long as he didn't have to go he was fine, when he knewthe time was coming, he fought the process to deployment. His online rants showed him as a extremist promoting that muslums should stand up and kill Americans...he obtained weapons and ammo, he planned with forethought what he was going to do, it was just a matter of when...he cleaned out his apartment down to the refrigerator...he then dress in full islamic attire an went through his neighborhood giving away copies of the koran, he then went to work and illegally took his weapons on base and proceed to kill 12 poeople and wound 30 more (it is expected that more will not survive their wounds) an act that itself is an act of terrorism, and yes those he killed and wounded were innocent of crime, (maybe not in his mind, but the fact is they all were innocent) since he performed this act of terrorism he is a terrorist, since he is islamic / muslum and already shown to be extreme by his internet rants and his arguments with other troops he is a radical islamic muslum terrorist....its really that simple and it all fits.. oh and lets not forget the he got up on a table and shouted "allah is great" in arabic as he shot and he continued to shout the same thing until he was shot.....
So he was scarced to be deployed, oh well no one stuck a gun to his head to make him enlist...he knew the possibility existed as soon as he was finished with schooling that the government paid for...so what that he tried to pay the gov for his schooling, thats not what he signed up for the the military is going to get their just due and he was obligated to serve out his enlisted time and the time he agreed to after going to school....people every day are scared to be deployed, but for the most part they done kill 12 other people and wound 30 others to show their dissatisfaction....he choose to follow the teaching of islam and mohammad..he choose to kill the infidels he choose how and where and when he would do this...this was not something that he just "snapped" and did on the spur of the moment..he planned this in advance and carried it out....
he is a gutless coward who followed his islamic / muslum teachings and murdered innocent people.....he is a muslum / islamic extremist terrorist... but you continue to rationalize it with the maybe this or that.... but you can not change any of the things that have happened or how they happen....he is a terrorist who needs to be saved and brought back to a life so that he can defend himself in a military court and then a civilian court so that the families of those that he killed and assaulted can see him die ( if i had my way, he would never see a court, id simply give each of his victims family members a gun and let them have at him as he was restrained)....he is islamic / muslum terrorist and worthless gutless coward piece of garbage......and if you think any jury is going to even try to rationalize this guy as you are tryng to do to make him out to be something he isn't , then i have a really nice model "C" ford to sell you....he is toast.....no matter who trys to show him as a victim as you have tried to do.....if he lives (which i hope he does) he is a dead man with the people...because , we are all savages and want to see him pay for what he did, no matter what the reason, what has been shown is enough for the people that will judge him , unlike you and the one in the WH that while he spoke of this crime, he refused to use the word terrorist.....
Oh and yes your mind must be failing you as the milkman and the VT shooter were both called terrorist by the media and the public...
Turtle you rationalize all you want, the guy was a muslum, he enlisted in the military and knew from the time he enlisted he could go to a war zone...(chance of him having to kill another muslum were nill because of his position) but as long as he didn't have to go he was fine, when he knewthe time was coming, he fought the process to deployment. His online rants showed him as a extremist promoting that muslums should stand up and kill Americans...he obtained weapons and ammo, he planned with forethought what he was going to do, it was just a matter of when...he cleaned out his apartment down to the refrigerator...he then dress in full islamic attire an went through his neighborhood giving away copies of the koran, he then went to work and illegally took his weapons on base and proceed to kill 12 poeople and wound 30 more (it is expected that more will not survive their wounds) an act that itself is an act of terrorism, and yes those he killed and wounded were innocent of crime, (maybe not in his mind, but the fact is they all were innocent) since he performed this act of terrorism he is a terrorist, since he is islamic / muslum and already shown to be extreme by his internet rants and his arguments with other troops he is a radical islamic muslum terrorist....its really that simple and it all fits.. oh and lets not forget the he got up on a table and shouted "allah is great" in arabic as he shot and he continued to shout the same thing until he was shot.....
So he was scarced to be deployed, oh well no one stuck a gun to his head to make him enlist...he knew the possibility existed as soon as he was finished with schooling that the government paid for...so what that he tried to pay the gov for his schooling, thats not what he signed up for the the military is going to get their just due and he was obligated to serve out his enlisted time and the time he agreed to after going to school....people every day are scared to be deployed, but for the most part they done kill 12 other people and wound 30 others to show their dissatisfaction....he choose to follow the teaching of islam and mohammad..he choose to kill the infidels he choose how and where and when he would do this...this was not something that he just "snapped" and did on the spur of the moment..he planned this in advance and carried it out....
he is a gutless coward who followed his islamic / muslum teachings and murdered innocent people.....he is a muslum / islamic extremist terrorist... but you continue to rationalize it with the maybe this or that.... but you can not change any of the things that have happened or how they happen....he is a terrorist who needs to be saved and brought back to a life so that he can defend himself in a military court and then a civilian court so that the families of those that he killed and assaulted can see him die ( if i had my way, he would never see a court, id simply give each of his victims family members a gun and let them have at him as he was restrained)....he is islamic / muslum terrorist and worthless gutless coward piece of garbage......and if you think any jury is going to even try to rationalize this guy as you are tryng to do to make him out to be something he isn't , then i have a really nice model "C" ford to sell you....he is toast.....no matter who trys to show him as a victim as you have tried to do.....if he lives (which i hope he does) he is a dead man with the people...because , we are all savages and want to see him pay for what he did, no matter what the reason, what has been shown is enough for the people that will judge him , unlike you and the one in the WH that while he spoke of this crime, he refused to use the word terrorist.....
Oh and yes your mind must be failing you as the milkman and the VT shooter were both called terrorist by the media and the public...
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letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
I don't think that is exactly the same correlation. I woud say it's more like this for instance: The Mafia is primarily Sicilians, A Sicilian did something horible. He must be in the Mafia.
You have a point but that still doesn't make it O.K. It is a generalization anyway you look at it. Let's just say there are some who don't posess the big picture discernment of the issues that you do..If it looks like a duck, it's good enough for them. The fact it doesn't quack like a duck or walk like a duck is irrevellent as it does not fit their agenda...
Not at all the same thing. In your example, a nation attacks another nation. In this case, one man attacks a group of individuals, albeit in a similar way as these individuals were American servicemen and women. If a sovereign nation attacks us, that is an act of war. This was a lot of things, but not that.
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letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
As i have said, i have stayed away from the islamic/ muslum stuff for a while now out of respect for a member here and his family...but...as far as i am concerned what is going on in this thread is not taking on the whole islamic / muslum movement (they are not a religion, they are a political party and much more using religion as a tool to gain their desired end result) it is about holding up one person within that movement.....
Turtle you rationalize all you want, the guy was a muslum, he enlisted in the military and knew from the time he enlisted he could go to a war zone...(chance of him having to kill another muslum were nill because of his position) but as long as he didn't have to go he was fine, when he knewthe time was coming, he fought the process to deployment. His online rants showed him as a extremist promoting that muslums should stand up and kill Americans...he obtained weapons and ammo, he planned with forethought what he was going to do, it was just a matter of when...he cleaned out his apartment down to the refrigerator...he then dress in full islamic attire an went through his neighborhood giving away copies of the koran, he then went to work and illegally took his weapons on base and proceed to kill 12 poeople and wound 30 more (it is expected that more will not survive their wounds) an act that itself is an act of terrorism, and yes those he killed and wounded were innocent of crime, (maybe not in his mind, but the fact is they all were innocent) since he performed this act of terrorism he is a terrorist, since he is islamic / muslum and already shown to be extreme by his internet rants and his arguments with other troops he is a radical islamic muslum terrorist....its really that simple and it all fits.. oh and lets not forget the he got up on a table and shouted "allah is great" in arabic as he shot and he continued to shout the same thing until he was shot.....
So he was scarced to be deployed, oh well no one stuck a gun to his head to make him enlist...he knew the possibility existed as soon as he was finished with schooling that the government paid for...so what that he tried to pay the gov for his schooling, thats not what he signed up for the the military is going to get their just due and he was obligated to serve out his enlisted time and the time he agreed to after going to school....people every day are scared to be deployed, but for the most part they done kill 12 other people and wound 30 others to show their dissatisfaction....he choose to follow the teaching of islam and mohammad..he choose to kill the infidels he choose how and where and when he would do this...this was not something that he just "snapped" and did on the spur of the moment..he planned this in advance and carried it out....
he is a gutless coward who followed his islamic / muslum teachings and murdered innocent people.....he is a muslum / islamic extremist terrorist... but you continue to rationalize it with the maybe this or that.... but you can not change any of the things that have happened or how they happen....he is a terrorist who needs to be saved and brought back to a life that he can defend himself in a military court and then a civilian court so that the families of those that he killed and assaulted can see hm die....he is islamic / muslum terrorist and worthless gutless coward piece of garbage......and if you think any jury is going to even try to rationalize this guy as you are tryng to do to make him out to be something he isn't , then i have a really nice model "C" ford to sell you....he is toast.....no matter who trys to show him as a victim as you have tried to do.....if he lives (which i hope he does) he is a dead man with the people...because , we are all savages and want to see him pay for what he did, no matter what the reason, what has been shown is enough for the people that will judge him , unlike you and the one in the WH that while he spoke of this crime, he refused to use the word terrorist.....
Oh and yes your mind must be failing you as the milkman and the VT shooter were both called terrorist by the media and the public...
Look, this guy is a piece of s***, no two ways about it. He is in NO WAY a victim. He deserves nothing less than what he did to these people he shot. As far as I am concerned that isn't even up for debate. Take him out in the middle of the town square and stone him..that would be too good for him...but, that's not the issue I was raising. Yesterday, in the General forum, someone who will remain nameless (but go look it up)said, and I quote verbatim, "All you have to do is hear his name, and it all becomes clear". Don't try to tell me that is not bigotry. It's as blatent as it gets...
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
I am not denying that what was said is bigotry, but the fact is he is right.....sorry to say it, but it is a fact..his name showed him as an arabic islamic muslum..and the fact prove that out...so the person that stated that was not wrong...you might not like it, but the fact is the statement was right...now if he had been a christain with the same name, the statement would have been wrong...but he wasn't, he was born palestinian. raised in America and a converted islamic muslum by parents that i have heard to this day do not speak American....
so yea the statement was bigotry, but , you will have that, right or wrong, its how most Americans are.....in one shape, form or another.....
so yea the statement was bigotry, but , you will have that, right or wrong, its how most Americans are.....in one shape, form or another.....
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
You never cease to amaze me but sometimes...well, I'm speechless...
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
letz wrote...
Ain't it grand!! Glad i could be of help...
Ain't it grand!! Glad i could be of help...
I do not agree Rocket. The attacks on the U.S. are the acts of a group of contries under the guise of a "terror group". Iran, Libya, Syria, with training, supplies and funding from Russia and China. We are fighting a war, no different that WWII or the Cold War. Many will die. The enemy is an enemy that chooses to attack as a coward, to attack innocent people, women and children. They are scum. This country had better wake up. This is NOT a loose bunch of ragtags, this is a REAL war with REAL dead people and we CAN lose it. In fact, unless we get real about fighting it , we well. Then you and the rest of the nation will find out what heck on earth is.
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
That really wasn't what I was getting at... I don't know about the Chinese Russian connection. That's not my thing as it is yours, though I believe there is some truth to it. I don't necessarily believe we are always the good guys either. Just reading stuff you've written in the past tells me there is tit for tat...
Lt. Col Ralph Peters nails it.Hot Air Blog Archive Quotes of the day
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
letz wrote:
I don't give a tinkers azz if we are always the good guy or not or the worlds cops...we need to be the aggressors and set the world stage in the theather as to keep others from attcking us. 9-11 happened here because of clintons bs garbage on being weak militarily....they knew we were weakin by clinton and moved against us on our soil, that should never have happen and with this "apologist in office now and his inability to handle foreign powers and his total disregard for our military, chances are it will happen again....our military needs to go wherever it da8mn well feels the need for whatever reason they want to, pre-emptive or not, and even just for the h8ell of it...we need to be the aggressors...you think russia and china would be working in cuba and with hugo and all over central america if they felt we were in a position to take them out as we have been in the past!?!? No, they know we are weakened by weak leadership...and we will pay for it here on our own soil again...as well as being attacked by those that want to kill the infidels of the west.....
And yes i say we need to be the aggressors in military actions against anyone we deem the enemy for any reason with the fact that both of my sons served in the ME, both on multiple tours..i wanted my daughter to go also, but she bowed out...and 1 one my sons still works for a military contractor ...so don't try to go to the standing bs, that "if you or your kids were in the military you wouldn't feel that way..."
I don't give a tinkers azz if we are always the good guy or not or the worlds cops...we need to be the aggressors and set the world stage in the theather as to keep others from attcking us. 9-11 happened here because of clintons bs garbage on being weak militarily....they knew we were weakin by clinton and moved against us on our soil, that should never have happen and with this "apologist in office now and his inability to handle foreign powers and his total disregard for our military, chances are it will happen again....our military needs to go wherever it da8mn well feels the need for whatever reason they want to, pre-emptive or not, and even just for the h8ell of it...we need to be the aggressors...you think russia and china would be working in cuba and with hugo and all over central america if they felt we were in a position to take them out as we have been in the past!?!? No, they know we are weakened by weak leadership...and we will pay for it here on our own soil again...as well as being attacked by those that want to kill the infidels of the west.....
And yes i say we need to be the aggressors in military actions against anyone we deem the enemy for any reason with the fact that both of my sons served in the ME, both on multiple tours..i wanted my daughter to go also, but she bowed out...and 1 one my sons still works for a military contractor ...so don't try to go to the standing bs, that "if you or your kids were in the military you wouldn't feel that way..."
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To rationalize is to employ reason, and I know it just drives you crazy when I do that. Sorry.
The fact is, we don't know all the facts. Clearly it is very easy for you, but for me it's very difficult to take hearsay to be absolute fact, simply because I agree with it. It's still hearsay. For example, one witness said he shouted "Allah Akbar", yet another said he did no such thing. Which witness is telling the truth, which one is more credible? Is it simply a matter of which one you agree with? It certainly makes a better story if he did.
Name one mass shooting where the shooter didn't plan it out. Most shooting rampages are premeditated and have some delusional religious or cultural pretext. That doesn't mean that just because it's planned that it's therefore a terrorist act. I'm just not willing, yet, to completely dismiss the "crazy" here, in favor of something that has yet to be proved. Being crazy and being a Muslim (or being a Christian) certainly aren't mutually exclusive.
There ya go. He followed his Islamic teaching (we can only assume, anyway), and he murdered innocent people. It's quite likely that he murdered those people because of his Islamic teachings, but it is by no means the certainty you ascribe to. There may be other factors involved, equally valid, equally important in his decision making.
It's not really rationalizing, it's more a case of me continuing to wait until actual facts are in rather than making up my own. You've rationalized that he is an Islamic extremist terrorist, yet you do so by combining several pieces of information that may or may not even be true. But if fits with what you want to believe, therefore it's true. Is that how it works?
Excuse me? One of the things that pіsses me off more than just about anything is to be accused of something I didn't do, especially if the accuser can look right there and see that I didn't do it but he is so stupid that he is unable to see it. Because all of the facts are not in, and I'm willing to wait for them, and in the meantime also speculate the other possibilities, it does not mean I'm trying to make him out to be something he isn't. I'm merely stating that the possibility exists. I defy you to quote me where I've said anything differently. By definition, it's impossible to try and make him out to be something that he isn't, because we don't really know WTF he is. Just because you think you know, doesn't make it true.
Again, excuse me? Accusing me of something I didn't do, and the text of what I said is right there in black and white, and you're apparently to stupid to comprehend it. I didn't hint at him being a victim. Didn't even come close to approaching the subject. A victim? Puhleeze. I'm a very black and white kind of guy, where if you did something, regardless of the reason, you did it, end of discussion. You can't do something, then say you somehow didn't actually do it because of the fact that you did it for this or that reason. You did it. Period. This guy is no different. Whatever the reason ends up being as to why he did it, he still did it. And, again, I defy you to quote me where I said he was a victim (and therefore should be excused for his actions).
Now, I know what you're going to try and do, so I'll head that off at the pass. You're going to try and say that because I brought up the fact that he was harassed by his fellow soldiers over his faith that I'm somehow making him out to be a victim. BBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Wrong answer. It's merely one of the possible reasons for his actions, but it does not in any was excuse his actions. Being harassed by fellow soldiers doesn't make him a victim any more that following the teachings of the Qur'an makes him a poor, poor, pitiful let's excuse him victim of Islam.
Give me a link to one major news outlet that reported that shooting as a terrorist act by a terrorist. A few people on Blogs mentioned it, but not many, and even those mentioned it as more of an afterthought. Same with the Virginia Tech shooter. Of course, if he had been a Muslim and said Allah told him to do it, instead of a Christian who said God told him to do it, he would have been labeled as a terrorist. Just like if the Ft Hood shooter had been a lilly white Christian and said God told him to kill those people (like the guy in Pennsylvania), he wouldn't be labeled a terrorist, he'd just be crazy.
I don't know what you mean by my thing. Follow the money and follow the support of terrorist countries in the U.N. by China and Russia. Look at the navel base Russia is building in Syria. Look at Russia re-arming Cuba. Look at China's part in protecting Iran's nuke program. I gleen this from just everyday news, news that, for the most part, tends to down play the danger. As for the tit for tat, if someone attacks the United States, well, if that is what you call tit for tat, I just don't get it. As for us always being right or nor, terrorists are NEVER right. Russia was NEVER right. China was NEVER right. Nazi Germany was NOT right. Just count the deaths that bunch caused last century. We are ALLOWING and PAYING for Russia and China to start the EXACT thing up again and we have to worry about making a mistake? Just keep one thing in mind, it WILL happen on OUR soil this time. Unless WE put a stop to it.
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
First of all, YOU mentioned your kids, not me, so don't even try that one..
Secondly, How do you misconstrue what I said as condoning Terrorism? Are we weak militarily? I don't know. I don't know how you gauge when we are strong and when we are weak other than to engage with an enemy and decide it on the battlefield. If I listen to the Corporate American Media, I only hear what they want me to hear. Your "thing" as I called it was the idea that you have been in the middle of the action, and privy to other information that makes you an authority , to a point, in my eyes anyway, to the real deal. My comment was made in regard to gleaning some of the comments you have made in the past. That's all. You know more than I do about it, that is for sure. Having said all that, I know enough to ascertain the U.S. has stuck it's nose into places and issues it has no business being, in the name of national security.
I don't see where I mentioned my kids, Rocket, you lost me there. I don't have access to the "GOOD" stuff anymore, but, I can read. I can put two and two together. I also don't see where I said or construed that YOU support terrorism. As to the U.S. sticking our noses in where we don't belong, maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know what YOU consider protected our National Security is. I do KNOW that Clinton's involvment in Somalia was NOT. Neither was his involvement in Kosavo. We had NO military, economic or security threats there at that time. THAT was for sure a mis-use of the military.
I know, from talking with my nephew when he returned from Iraq, that the WMD's that they found and captured were either Russian make or were of Russian design. He also told me how, when they were able to capture a IED intact, it almost ALWAYS made of either Russian components or Iraian components of Russian or Chinese design.
As to our military being weak or not, there is a very easy way to determine strength other than on the battlefield. Watch your enemies actions. If they feel confidant to expand their military, re-arm Cuba, a DIRECT threat to us, and NOT fear retaliation, we are weak. They would NOT be doing this if they were worried about us. They also are aware that Obama is very weak and symathetic to their cause.
I know, from talking with my nephew when he returned from Iraq, that the WMD's that they found and captured were either Russian make or were of Russian design. He also told me how, when they were able to capture a IED intact, it almost ALWAYS made of either Russian components or Iraian components of Russian or Chinese design.
As to our military being weak or not, there is a very easy way to determine strength other than on the battlefield. Watch your enemies actions. If they feel confidant to expand their military, re-arm Cuba, a DIRECT threat to us, and NOT fear retaliation, we are weak. They would NOT be doing this if they were worried about us. They also are aware that Obama is very weak and symathetic to their cause.
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
Turtle, i am not going to tear your post apart piece by piece, but ill simply point out that what he did was an act of terrorist, that makes him a terrorist..your willingness to look for reasons as to why he did it shows that you are willing to let him have reasons beyond the fact that he did it and that is in turn making it look like he was a victim because of those reason...doesn't wash with me..i don't give a da*mn why he did it, let the families of his victims kill the POS and save the money the it will cost to send him to trial....we have enough facts to do just that, he killed the people in an act of terrorism, that makes him a terrorist..
As for the rest of your rant, screw it, you are right, as far as i am concerned and also more then not feel he is a islamic / muslum terrorist, and that is enough to have him killed on the spot as far as most are concerned....it those that want to "reason" and give him a benefit of something else other then what we already know that make me sick...if you do soething illegal, no matter what, you are guilty, end of the show, the reason doesn't count...and the punishment is metered out according to the law....its the libs that have weaken this system to the point that there has to be a reason beyond what is shown up front, when it doesn't matter at all...the fact is HE killed them in an act of terrorism thats all that matters...no other reason is needed beyond what is known, and frankly, i don't give a da8mn beyond that.....kill him...
As for the need to provide you with a MAJOR media link for the milkman and the VT shooter, no need to, for me a blog is all that is needed, and you admitted that already. End of conversation on that.
And yes if I , me, you or anyone commits a crime and it is as obvisous as this one is, (i mean they know he did it, you agree with that fact don't you) the reason doesn't matter, the punishment is to be dealt out, period....i don't care why, but if i can use what you did to serve my agenda, you bet i will...and this pos does that to a "T" and you can bet it furthers the efforts......h*ell mosques all over the country are asking for police protection because of ths pos, so don't think for a moment that i am an isolated individual...its the American way to seek out and destroy the enemy....
As far as pizzing you off, lifes a biotch....live with it or get over it...
As for the rest of your rant, screw it, you are right, as far as i am concerned and also more then not feel he is a islamic / muslum terrorist, and that is enough to have him killed on the spot as far as most are concerned....it those that want to "reason" and give him a benefit of something else other then what we already know that make me sick...if you do soething illegal, no matter what, you are guilty, end of the show, the reason doesn't count...and the punishment is metered out according to the law....its the libs that have weaken this system to the point that there has to be a reason beyond what is shown up front, when it doesn't matter at all...the fact is HE killed them in an act of terrorism thats all that matters...no other reason is needed beyond what is known, and frankly, i don't give a da8mn beyond that.....kill him...
As for the need to provide you with a MAJOR media link for the milkman and the VT shooter, no need to, for me a blog is all that is needed, and you admitted that already. End of conversation on that.
And yes if I , me, you or anyone commits a crime and it is as obvisous as this one is, (i mean they know he did it, you agree with that fact don't you) the reason doesn't matter, the punishment is to be dealt out, period....i don't care why, but if i can use what you did to serve my agenda, you bet i will...and this pos does that to a "T" and you can bet it furthers the efforts......h*ell mosques all over the country are asking for police protection because of ths pos, so don't think for a moment that i am an isolated individual...its the American way to seek out and destroy the enemy....
As far as pizzing you off, lifes a biotch....live with it or get over it...