Bill Clinton could have had Bin Laden, just another non fact

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Actually PBS is the baby for the left, it had a sole purpose of balancing out television when there were three networks and tightly controlled markets. It has really not much in return in the last 20 year outside of Burn's work.

As for Fox, I know you don't watch it Tallcal but it seems that it has moved more to the center as much so as CNN has moved more to the right. MSNBC has been too far left of everything and they have yet to have anything really credible.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I think Fox may be moving a bit left of center, just a tad further left than Bush was. It is really hard to find non-biased center based news. I have not found any. Most I have found tend to be centerleft or left.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OK here is one thing that proves that the networks have lost it - American Idol.

It is a Fox show and I understand the fox affiliates will promote it but what is the reason that other networks promote it?

They have talked about it on the morning shows that the three big networks have like it was their own show, I think the winner or runner up made some appearances on GMA and Today. But this is not just American Idol, I have seen this happen with other show, Leno had someone on a few months back and he came out and said "it runs on ABC's affiliates 9pm Thursdays" or something like that. I remember once that the actors/actresses couldn't even make an appreance on competiting network shows.

The thing is, maybe I am the only one but when your network ratings are down, you don't promote other shows that other networks have.

End the nightmare, end public broadcasting
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I go along with eleminating PBS. Broadcasting is NOT a government function. Too much of a chance of turing into Pravda.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Kind of like outing Valerie Plume to make a political statement.
Remember Scooter Pie,he was a pathetic moron on his firiggin crutch's,what a farce.God it was fun though,great political theater,I mean the real deal.

I suppose I could explain how the above statement is total liberal bs, but the Washington Post does it better:

"...But all those who have opined on this affair ought to take note of the not-so-surprising disclosure that the primary source of the newspaper column in which Ms. Plame's cover as an agent was purportedly blown in 2003 was former deputy secretary of state Richard L. Armitage.
It follows that one of the most sensational charges leveled against the Bush White House -- that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame's identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson -- is untrue. The partisan clamor that followed the raising of that allegation by Mr. Wilson in the summer of 2003 led to the appointment of a special prosecutor, a costly and prolonged investigation, and the indictment of Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, on charges of perjury. All of that might have been avoided had Mr. Armitage's identity been known three years ago..."

End of an Affair

The Bush derangement syndrome is old now and bordering being demented; your propoganda based on moveon.org campaign talking points has become redundant, boring and lacking substance or fact - just name-calling and lame attempts at ridicule.

Political theater - remember the eight years of the Clinton administration. The time when parents of young children were having to explain the meaning of "oral sex" since it was a common term on the 6 o'clock news.

Back to the present - there's another term we'll soon be explaining: inflation, thanks to our new administration.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
IF in fact any dept knew an attack was imminent "someone" dropped the ball...

If in fact the CIA and the FBI knew it was imminent shows not an intell problem as much as not info sharing for the common good and a heck of a lot of ego.

Typical left vs right thread....built on some facts and a lot of assumption.:rolleyes:
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, in the intell business there is almost NEVER conclusive evidence. You have "gut feelings" based on many years of working a problem. You are working with lots of almost unrelated bits of information. In my day we were breaking coded voice communication. A really GOOD code break we were able read 1 out of every 10 words. We employed "fusion" analysis. We would take our 1 or 2 words, match that to a morse transmission that we could not read but it was sent. Then look at a fuzzy picture and some other stuff and piece it together like a puzzle. Armed with that we then would write our "Product" and that, if it was important enough, is what a president would be briefed on.

Then you have to take into account that our agency was not allowed, BY LAW, to share our information with internal law inforcement groups like FBI. Those laws where stiffend up during Clinton making it almost impossible for those who worked the "forgien" problems to pass information to those who worked "internal" problems.

In the aftermath of 9/11 is was very difficult to get good reporting. There was too much finger pointing and blaming going on. Once in a while a report would come out that I could get some "real" information from. They were talking about an "increase in chatter" from the terror net works. That is a sign that something is going to happen soon.

That is what you work with, chatter only. The "Bad Guys" rarely come out and say things like on 9/11 we are going to fly a bunch of airplanes into buildings. What the intell guy would have to look at was more like, "The big game is a few days away, are your pitchers ready?" There would have been a been increase in talk like that.

Then we have to go back to the early Clinton days. When he gutted the intell agencies he got rid of and encouraged getting rid of guys like me. 20 year men, no degree, with pensions. They passed laws limited our ability to get promoted. In the end they bought out as many as they could. Now, it takes 10 years or more for a person to get good at that business. You have to start at the bottom and learn a "target" from the lowest levels of communications and work up to the highest. It you don't learn the small stuff you never understant the big stuff. We lost hundreds of those guys like me and IF we hired new blood on the day Clinton took office and IF they learned the job correctly, when 9/11 happened they were still 2-4 years away from being really good.

Now couple that with the world problems for the 20 years or so prior to 9/11. Most of our meger funds were pushed at the Soviet Problem, out biggest threat at the time. That is what the equipment was designed for. The best and the brightest worked that problem as well, that is where the promotions were. The middle east was an after thought. So there was never the big group of really good agents working that problem and then Clintons move got rid of many of the few good ones there.

That is what really happened. You have to look back 20 to 30 years or more at things like this. 9/11 was just a snapshot in time. The problems go back sometimes more than 100 years and then they bite you. Things like the total underfunding of the intell agencies during my entire 20 years. We never had the ability to even come close to doing the job we were tasked with. There was not enough money.

That is enough for now. I can go into much more detail if you like. It bothers me when I hear things on the news about "failures" etc and read what some "experts" in here throw around as "Fact". The people who work those jobs are good, dedicated people. They were not to blame, congress was. Any failures that took place were 100% caused by politions. Put the blame where it is due. Bush had NOT been in office long enough when 9/11 hit to have had any affect on the agencies. Go back and start looking at the problem since 1950 and then you can begin to figure out what happened. The problems started back then.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Common sense would figure that there'd be a time lag between implementation of policy to the actual happening..

The same in reverse...New money now would take time to dribble to the bottom to make improvements...it is not an instant solution...it would take years to rebuild a network.

I've always said that Bush had little to do with 9/11..he wasn't in office that long....9/11 wasn't planned in 9 months...it took years of planning to carry out that operation...9/11 was going to happen no matter who was in office.
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
assumption - i question the need of all the extra letters at the end of this word

It's a very hard internal battle when one starts to realize that 80-90% of what you are taught in school is wrong and very easy to jump over to the other side and become a hard nose.

As to Valerie Plume,I'm sorry your not under cover if your using your real name your playing at being "in deep" especially if your "cover" is as a junior consoler in the diplomat core, thats just hiding which section of the government your working for and if a simple leg knows that 70%(guessing at the number but surely over 50) of the diplomatic core are in fact working for or with the CIA I'm pretty sure our Enemies know this as well.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The problems, OVM, are sistemic. IF we started today to work on the and IF we could keep "Party Politics" out of it I guess it would take 15-20 YEARS to start to see the fix. Add to that we are now re-gutting the DOD and intell agencies and will continue to for at least another 3.5 years.

The other side of this coin that needs to be looked at is the "human" side of the intell business. Imagine that you have a boss that "loathes" the work you do. He looks down on those who have less book learning than he does and does not believe that experience teaches you anything. Your worth and abilities are only determined by the number of college degrees you have. What affect would that have on you? Sure people should do thier best no matter what but the atmosphere in which you work plays on your mind no matter how good you are. People do thier best work when they are treated with respect, not lip service, but true respect. Clinton had little respect for those who did that job. The moral was in the pits durning that time. Same during Carter.


Nothing happens in a vacuum.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
I think Fox may be moving a bit left of center, just a tad further left than Bush was. It is really hard to find non-biased center based news. I have not found any. Most I have found tend to be centerleft or left.

Fox is Left of Center??? Further Left than Bush??? I can't imagine what he thinks is center.

On a serious note to Layout, When you talk of being a spy or being in the intel community for 20 years. I believe it hurts your arguments, since this is the internet and anyone can make any claims they want, it makes the reader 1st wonder if you are a former spy, a liar or an insane person. I am not trying to get you riled up. It is just a fact when someone reads "I was a spy" 3 options come to the readers mind and 2 of them hurt your credibility to the reader. I truly hope this last paragraph does not come off as an attack.

New paragraph this one not so much:
Do you ever introduce yourself as Shooter Layout Shooter?:D
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
i have always read layouts job as an intel annalist though it may sound exciting and clandestine to those not familiar it's a pretty boring job but one that the rest of us are thankful some are willing to excel at.

Basically the compilation of information and passing it on to what ever people or group needs it.

If i'm wrong i'm sorry,but if that is what he did do it's no biggie
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You do not "rile me up" with those questions, they are valid. IF you ever came by the house I have all the proof in the world that I did as I say. There are at least two people in who post in here that can tell just by what I write that I am not making up stories. I have no reason to make this up. Some may think so, but, I have ALWAYS been a "straight shooter" HEHEHE That is a good one. I only sign on in here as Layoutshooter. I have enough problems keeping track of one screen name, I could not handle two.

We will not argue political beliefs, we have no common grounds to base a discussion on.

You see Doug, the vast majority of people have no clue as to what is going on out in the "REAL" world. Most, and I would bet this includes you, don't really want to know. That is NOT meant to put you down. Most people just want to watch TV, mind thier own business and leave the dirty work to others. That is human nature. Most Monday morning quarterbacks know more about football than 99% of the American public knows about the intell business and yet, with no understanding or backround what so ever, they still know all the answers and how to slove the problems. Very typical of Monday morning quarterbacks. They just sit on the side lines, do nothing themselfs, and tell those who really play the game how they are screwing up. It might be fun, but it accomplishes nothing. It often hurts needed efforts.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hey, mjolnir131,


It WAS very boring most of the time but with a extremely high stress level. That took it's toll on many of my friends who died very early deaths. The few times it was not boring people were dying or about to die. Not a fun job. We had to work these things from inside a building, far away from the event. That made it even harder to deal with.

It is a bit more complicated than that but you sorta got it right. I spent MOST of my time working LIVE missions, not pushing paper. That is why I have such bad hearing now. Working with headsets on day in and day out will do you hearing in. No offense taken by the way, there are few out there that really understand that business. You seem to have a better grasp than most "non-spooks" do.

Hey Doug,

You questioned my backround etc, and rightfully so. I want to know your backround. What have you done in the past that gives you valid insites into the intell and military. So far I have only see you post cut and paste stuff and quote a few slogans. I think it only fair that you pass on your experience in these matters.
 

Steady Eddie

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I guess I need to start checking almost every item some on here spew as fact. This is from fact check .org

Factcheck.org writes it you beleive it....History is full of events that coulda woulda shoulda been avoided. From Peal to the towers. Now from today on, how will we handle the next event that is and will be coming.

I'm not going to look back and say he should of done this or that. Keep in mind, Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2 and even the current one, know more about this than we do. Stop beating dead horse's.
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
.... and the same can be said by some about oh ... CNN, MSNBC, PBS


Where would you place BBC Left? Right? ... Center?
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
I was almost 35 before i realized that if somebody used "the truth","Fact" or "the way it realy is" in a title or sub-title or the like your going to get evrything but.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
Factcheck.org writes it you beleive it....History is full of events that coulda woulda shoulda been avoided. From Peal to the towers. Now from today on, how will we handle the next event that is and will be coming.

I'm not going to look back and say he should of done this or that. Keep in mind, Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2 and even the current one, know more about this than we do. Stop beating dead horse's.
.


Eddie: Beating a dead horse? The point of this thread is to make 1 simple point.

During debates on here many times people bring up the "fact" that Clinton had Osama and chose not to get him. This thread puts that claim of fact to test and that is all. The point being even if it were true that we could have had him, which may very well be so, but is not an irrefutable fact as stated. In 1996 we had no grounds to prosecute him anyway.
 
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