About That GNP thingie ....

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Not to put a damper on things, but Doug's Blog post is meaningless.
Not necessarily ....

Preaching to the choir with a certain audience, perhaps, but it's nothing more than unsubstantiated wishes of opinion.
You have no real evidence of that .... other than an "if, then" .... "everybody knows" sort of argument ....

It's loaded with quotes, actual quotes mind you, attributable to the ever-popular Nobody In Particular, which means he made them up.
I would think it ought to be relatively obvious why he wouldn't be able to specifically name his sources .... just for starters, it's highly likely that they would no longer be sources .... :rolleyes:

Who are these people? Nobody. They don't exist.

He's written an entire piece chock full of information that came from nobody.
Lack of attribution to a specific source does not mean that such sources don't exist .... or that the information is untrue .... just that they are - at this point - unknown .... and they may never be known (again for what should be fairly obvious reasons)

Watergate and "Deep Throat" have taught us all that .... or should have ....

From my perspective, your position on this matter seems to be a bit of a logical fallacy ....

The age-old rule is that when you attribute something to "some people say" or some variant of the same, that what you're really doing is reporting your own opinion, but are trying to pass it off as someone else's to make it more believable and more credible.
Many, if not most, "rules" have exceptions ....

Some? Name one. Protecting sources is one thing, but wishfully making them up is quite another. You can't merely assume something to be true, and then write about it as if it is.
ROTFLMAO ..... advice that should, undoubtedly, be taken to heart .... particularly in the context of your post ....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
You can laugh all you want, but the burden of proof isn't on me, the reader, it's on him, the author. It's not a logical fallacy to refuse to accept something on face value as being true.

It would, absolutely, be true that if he had sources and couldn't name them that he had a valid reason not to, but he gave no indication that he had any sources at all, other than then lame journalistic tactic of 'many people say', which is the tactic of getting your own opinion into a piece without taking ownership of it.

And it's true there are exceptions to the rule, but this author has never been shown to be an exception.

Originally Posted by Turtle Preaching to the choir with a certain audience, perhaps, but it's nothing more than unsubstantiated wishes of opinion.
You have no real evidence of that .... other than an "if, then" .... "everybody knows" sort of argument ....
Well, for one, I don't need evidence for it, because it's my opinion. Two, the author failed to substantiate anything he wrote. The evidence of that is in the article itself, so yes, I do have evidence of that. Three, I can't believe you're defending such incredibly shoddy journalism. Panic? Really? Panic?

Can I get a Hosanna!
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The Libertarian Party National Convention is currently being covered live on C-SPAN ....

I wasn't paying real close attention at the time .... but unless I'm mistaken, a while ago a motion was made from the floor to suspend the rules and seconded .... to place Dr. Paul name into the ring for the nomination .... :eek:
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
No sign of a brokered convention at this point. Even Paul himself says as of yesterday that it is very remote. I think he will get some delegates and a decent speaking spot but that is about it.
Still think he could cause some trouble, but nothing is gained with that. Maybe he or Rand will get lucky in 2016.

Ron Paul is America's last chance. If he's elected, there's a slim chance America might be saved. Without him, slim becomes none.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Ron Paul is America's last chance. If he's elected, there's a slim chance America might be saved. Without him, slim becomes none.
I disagree. His ideas, which he stole from the Founding Fathers, will long outlive Dr. Paul.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
You can laugh all you want, but the burden of proof isn't on me, the reader, it's on him, the author.
And you can poo-poo what Doug Wead writes, and attack the messenger all day long .... and that won't make it untrue - if it actually is (true) ....It is whatever it is ....

It's not a logical fallacy to refuse to accept something on face value as being true.
While that (highlighted) is true, you went beyond merely doing that .... and asserted that what he had written was entirely made up (and therefore false) .... with no evidence to back that up ....

Thanks for clarifying that this is just an opinion .... and not really based on any particular facts that pertain specifically to this event ....

It would, absolutely, be true that if he had sources and couldn't name them that he had a valid reason not to, but he gave no indication that he had any sources at all ....
Sure he did: he quoted them anonymously ....

And one can view that however they would prefer to ....

And it's true there are exceptions to the rule, but this author has never been shown to be an exception.
But neither has it been shown (AFAIK) that he follows the rule either .... so the net of that is a wash ....

Well, for one, I don't need evidence for it, because it's my opinion.
Well .... there ya go ....

Two, the author failed to substantiate anything he wrote. The evidence of that is in the article itself, so yes, I do have evidence of that.
So that would be an admission then, that while you have evidence that there is no substantiation for what Wead writes, you have no evidence that what you've asserted (falsity) is actually true ....

Got it.

Three, I can't believe you're defending such incredibly shoddy journalism.
He's a campaign spokes-mouthpiece .... not a reporter for WaPo or the NYT ....

I can't believe you actually expect him to name sources either within, or close to, the Romney campaign .... surely you are well aware of what the consequences of that might be ....

Panic? Really? Panic?
Yup .... really ....

Just for starters, the Romney campaign legal team went to the mat several hours ago to try and overturn the elections of convention chairman and secretary (who were legally elected) at the Maine GOP State convention .... and it failed (the substitute nominee withdrew their name)

And secondly, it's being reported that at both the Nevada and Maine conventions that Romney supporters (including one "disguised" with a Ron Paul t-shirt .... lol ....) are attempting to circulate a false "Liberty Slate" of delegates (three different ones in Maine .... lol) in an attempt to mislead Ron Paul supporters into mistakenly voting for Romney delegates .... and the efforts failed (with several substitute nominees withdrawing their names)

Third, the Romney campaign and the Repuglican National Committee are already acting jointly, in concert with one another .... in direct violation of RNC Rule No. 11 (since there is not yet a nominee) .... a fact which has already been widely reported and documented on the 'net .... including on their own websites ....

For someone who supposedly has it "in the bag", ol' Mutt Robamney is starting to look kinda desperate .... stay tuned and don't touch that dial ....

Can I get a Hosanna!
Hosanna !
 
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wvcourier

Expert Expediter
You are brainwashed. The dems and republicans and lamestream media are ran by the same people.

Dont steal, the government hates competition. ~Ron Paul~
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Nevada convention is looking pretty nuts .... apparently Mittens bussed in "guests" .... and the TPTB allowed people to continue entering the hall after the cutoff/deadline ....

Some other stuff reported that I'm not going to comment on until I know more ....
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
And you can poo-poo what Doug Wead writes, and attack the messenger all day long .... and that won't make it untrue - if it actually is (true) ....It is whatever it is ....
Nor will it make it true. His piece is a textbook case of the author offering his opinion passed off in a manner to appear truthful and authoritative. Journalism textbooks use the very examples he uses as a teaching tool to not do that. Any journalism teacher in high school or college will confirm as much. Just because you or anyone else strongly believe what he wrote to be true, does not mean it should be taken at face value and should not be criticized for the badly written piece that it is.

While that (highlighted) is true, you went beyond merely doing that .... and asserted that what he had written was entirely made up (and therefore false) .... with no evidence to back that up ....
Yes, that's the way it works (except "entirely made up" isn't necessarily therefore ergo thus false - it could very well be true despite it being made up, and I never asserted it was false, only that it was made up in order to pass off his opinion as fact). The burden of proof is on the author, not the reader. In the absence of any substantiation, and in its place textbook examples of "fictus substantia" (the actual term for the techniques he used), one can logically and correctly assume a certain level of falsity and misinformation in the underlying premise that the "fictus substania" supports. That's how it works. Unless... you buy into the propaganda, which is what the piece is.

Thanks for clarifying that this is just an opinion .... and not really based on any particular facts that pertain specifically to this event ....
"This event" is the article itself and the claims made within the article. The fact is, he attributed quotes to nobody, and substantited not a single claim.

Sure he did: he quoted them anonymously ....
That's a stretch of immense proportions. He didn't quote anyone anonymously. If he did, he would have said "anonymous sources" or the like. He didn't attribute any of the quotes to anyone. You may think he did, and that's what he wants you to believe, but he only attributed the quotes to generic nobodies which are utterly unverifiable. Anonymous sources can remain anonymous, but they still have to exist in the first place, and they have to be at least plausible. "The more angelic Romneyites" and "some of Romney’s own personal team" aren't verifiable nor plausible. They are concretely generic, though. He even reinforces that by doubling down on one of the quotes with an "Or so they say" kicker. That's laughable <suppressing LOL>. It's classic overcompensation. All this information, quotes even, that he's getting from deep inside the Ronmey camp isn't even plausible that they'd say that to him. If he got if from third or more parties, then he should have said so. But he didn't. He quoted someone.

And one can view that however they would prefer to ....
I prefer honestly, actually.

So that would be an admission then, that while you have evidence that there is no substantiation for what Wead writes, you have no evidence that what you've asserted (falsity) is actually true ....

Got it.
I didn't assert falsity. I asserted fabrication. There's a difference. For all I know, he knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy deep within the Romney camp who truthfully relayed information to him, which he then incorrectly quoted. But that's not very plausible at all, either. If you would like me to assert falsity in order for you to make your argument, I'll be happy to, but the burden of that is still on the author of the piece, not me. I don't have to provide evidence to disprove something that was never substantiated in the first place.

He's a campaign spokes-mouthpiece .... not a reporter for WaPo or the NYT ....
I was going to note that, but decided there wasn't any reason so smear Dr. Paul with a guilt by association deal. Why would the Paul campaign allow a mouthpiece such as this, with a proven history of trickery and misplaced trust, which is only reinforced by the article above?

I can't believe you actually expect him to name sources either within, or close to, the Romney campaign .... surely you are well aware of what the consequences of that might be ....
Well, that's good, because I don't actually expect him to name sources. I do, however, expect him to not use actual quotes that aren't actual quotes, to support a position reminiscent of Baghdad Bob. No matter how much you want to believe every word in the piece, it's an opinion piece offered as fact and supported by no facts whatsoever.


[Panic? Really? Panic?]
Yup .... really ....

Panic - a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.

Just for starters, the Romney campaign legal team went to the mat several hours ago to try and overturn the elections of convention chairman and secretary (who were legally elected) at the Maine GOP State convention .... and it failed (the substitute nominee withdrew their name)
Sounds like a measured and prudent (and expected) action, rather than a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, which produced hysterical or irrational behavior.

And secondly, it's being reported that at both the Nevada and Maine conventions that Romney supporters (including one "disguised" with a Ron Paul t-shirt .... lol ....) are attempting to circulate a false "Liberty Slate" of delegates (three different ones in Maine .... lol) in an attempt to mislead Ron Paul supporters into mistakenly voting for Romney delegates .... and the efforts failed (with several substitute nominees withdrawing their names)
That doesn't sound like panic, either. Sounds more like politics as usual. It also sounds a little like the sneaky trickery that Ron Paul supporters have been known to try by (falsely) saying they support some candidate other than Paul, and then pull the rug out from everyone right after delegates are chosen. Oh, wait, that's politics as usual, too.

Third, the Romney campaign and the Repuglican National Committee are already acting jointly, in concert with one another .... in direct violation of RNC Rules (since there is not yet a nominee) .... a fact which has already been widely reported and documented on the 'net .... including on their own websites ....
Conspiratorial panic on a national scale. Got it.

For someone who supposedly has it "in the bag", ol' Mutt Robamney is starting to look kinda desperate .... stay tuned and don't touch that dial ....
Newp, not gonna touch that dial. I can't wait to see if real, actual panic ensues from the desperation. Then again, I just saw Romney on the news a few minutes ago, and he didn't look desperate, nor much in a panic.

My problem isn't with what he wrote, it's with how he wrote it. Wead is a smart man, I've read all of his books except his latest, and there is little doubt in my mind that what he wrote, and how he wrote it, was deliberate.

Hosanna !
Amen
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Dr. Paul sweeps 6th congressional district Virginia delegates - takes all 3 delegates .... and all 3 alternates ....
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
An ENTIRE district? :eek:
Yup .... and the irony of it is that the 6th CD includes the hometown of Carter Glass - author of The Federal Reserve Act.

And I understand that he did very well in CD 4 and 9 last week, taking 4 out of 6 delegates ....

The real "heavy lifting" comes over the next couple of weeks in other districts.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
If you want to watch Romney "supporters" (which are apparently entirely unfamiliar with Robert's Rules of Order) whine about the possibility of having to stay late (after they have made numerous and continual attempts to delay things so that folks will leave) try the Nevada link .... of course, the same thing might be happening in Maine as well ....

Live stream from Nevada GOP convention (Dr. Paul is scheduled to speak later):

Nevada Convention on USTREAM: 2012 Nevada GOP Convention Proceedings..

Live stream from Maine GOP convention:

Maine GOP Convention on USTREAM: 2012 Maine GOP Convention Proceedings..
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yup .... and the irony of it is that the 6th CD includes the hometown of Carter Glass - author of The Federal Reserve Act.

And I understand that he did very well in CD 4 and 9 last week, taking 4 out of 6 delegates ....

The real "heavy lifting" comes over the next couple of weeks in other districts.

Well OKEE DOKEE then! Where is that district at? I have NO idea where VA's districts are, political districts, I know the hunting areas, THOSE are important! :p
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Nevada GOP state convention passes and adopts convention rules (and by incorporation the agenda of the convention) .... with Dr. Paul's supporters prevailing, and beating back all Romney efforts to change the rules ....
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I disagree. His ideas, which he stole from the Founding Fathers, will long outlive Dr. Paul.

But the country has to survive to see them have any effect. Unless you're saying that "America is wherever freedom is, and freedom, through the ideals promoted by his followers, will bloom elsewhere." That sounds real good, but the fact is, collapse of both the economy and anything which could loosely be called freedom is hanging by a thread, and I doubt will survive long enough to see his young followers make changes over the next few decades. We'll likely have collapsed within months--months--without a drastic course change.

I know many people say that one man can't change much. But there are drastic changes that he can make. He can close every agency that he has the legal power to close, and transfer people out of the ones he can't. Harry Browne wrote a piece on what he would do on his first full day as president if elected. There's a wonderful list of things that Browne said he'd do, and then he'd break for lunch. Not all of them were things he'd get away with, but if he got half of them done, that would be a great start.

Actually, I'd kind of like to see Dr. Paul write such an article.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What departments can he eliminate without going through congress? Would it be a good thing if he did go around congress?

One man can do little.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Hopefully, someone got video of the Romney supporter who flipped off the entire convention while at the mic .... because the process "was taking so long" .... and interfering with his plane reservation ....

Bummer dude ....
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
What departments can he eliminate without going through congress? Would it be a good thing if he did go around congress?

One man can do little.

Turtle listed such departments. In addition to that, he would have to educate the public to the fact that the role.of determining constitutionality does not belong solely to the courts. The constitution says no such thing. That being the case, he could, himself, by executive order, abolish departments not authorized by the constitution by declaring that they violate the tenth amendment. Third, whatever departments he found difficult to.abolish, he could effectively close by transferring all management out of them, either laying them off, or if that's politically impossible, by transferring them to other departments. He could establish a moratorium on hiring new employees for any unconstitutional department, and shrink it by attrition. If there are not enough positions for them, he can assign them to an ad hoc panel to reduce the size of government. That would win him the support of millions of Americans who don't otherwise support him. The remaining employees at any unconstitutional department he cant close can be ordered to sit at their desks for the entire workday and undertake no work whatsoever. Ordering employees not to take unconstitutional actions sounds like prime EO material, and if the very nature of their job is unconstitutional, they do nothing. If I can't get away with not paying them, at least I'd rather pay them to do nothing.
 
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