Why Is There No Outrage About This Police Shooting?

muttly

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Retired Expediter
Pilgrim wrote--
'Also, the pictures of Wilson's face depict injuries obvious to anyone not legally blind. The author simply lied about that'

I tried to explain a few times to some about the logical fallacy of 'Wilson's narrative'. All the injuries that he sustained were consistent with what the Police Chief said publicly four days after the incident, and what Wilson (under oath) said to the Grand Jury. Some would rather call the factually inaccurate statements by Burneko as just minutiae. It's important to be accurate and not to mislead readers.
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
^^^^^^ this
from someone who thinks "narrative" means "Grand Jury testimony and evidence."

And, from someone who doesn't know what a logical fallacy is. It just keeps getting better. And funnier. And sadder. And scarier. You didn't try to explain to anybody about the logical fallacy of 'Wilson's narrative' because Wilson's narrative isn't a logical fallacy, which you'd know if you knew what a logical fallacy is.

Now go Google. Go, go, go.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
^^^^^
What's funny , sad , and mostly scary is when someone distorts the truth so frequently and uses a food critic to help them.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Pulaski,

You're gettin' as good with the comedy as yer Cousin Barf ...

Between the two of ya's you two mooks r keepin' me in stitches ...

I'm thinkin' of startin' a thread on that Torture Report thingie so's we can discuss that little bit of nastiness our own homegrown Nazis in the CIA wuz involved in a little while back ...

Should be great fun ...
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
^^^^^
What's funny , sad , and mostly scary is when someone distorts the truth so frequently and uses a food critic to help them.
Wow. Using my own posting form against me. And, of course, using someone else's words to do it, in this case mine and Pilgrim's. Have you ever had an original thought?

If it weren't for Google and Pilgrim, and occasionally me, all we'd get out of you is Pee Wee Herman.

No, sorry, I don't distort the truth. And you, especially you, accusing me of distorting it doesn't make it so. I think it's hilarious when people do things, then while denying doing them, accuse others, in a deflection, of doing the very things they themselves are doing. It's like when Obama accuses others of not being transparent, you consistently distort the truth, to spin it into something that supports your beliefs and agenda, to sculpt into something comfortable. And you have no problem inventing new truths to do it, if that's what it takes to get it comfy. I prefer the raw truth, unadulterated, not sculpted, unspun, regardless of whether it is comfortable or not.

I do want to thank you for not even bothering to deny that you don't know how a grand jury works, what narrative means, what Wilson's narrative actually is (thinking that Wilson's narrative actually came from Wilson himself in his own words), and what a logical fallacy is. I'm not sure if that's due to some unexpected character improvement on your part, or if simply couldn't be bothered in delaying coming back and attacking me with a false and substantiated accusation. In either case it worked out well.
 

muttly

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Retired Expediter
Wow. Using my own posting form against me. And, of course, using someone else's words to do it, in this case mine and Pilgrim's. Have you ever had an original thought?

If it weren't for Google and Pilgrim, and occasionally me, all we'd get out of you is Pee Wee Herman.

No, sorry, I don't distort the truth. And you, especially you, accusing me of distorting it doesn't make it so. I think it's hilarious when people do things, then while denying doing them, accuse others, in a deflection, of doing the very things they themselves are doing. It's like when Obama accuses others of not being transparent, you consistently distort the truth, to spin it into something that supports your beliefs and agenda, to sculpt into something comfortable. And you have no problem inventing new truths to do it, if that's what it takes to get it comfy. I prefer the raw truth, unadulterated, not sculpted, unspun, regardless of whether it is comfortable or not.

I do want to thank you for not even bothering to deny that you don't know how a grand jury works, what narrative means, what Wilson's narrative actually is (thinking that Wilson's narrative actually came from Wilson himself in his own words), and what a logical fallacy is. I'm not sure if that's due to some unexpected character improvement on your part, or if simply couldn't be bothered in delaying coming back and attacking me with a false and substantiated accusation. In either case it worked out well.

Dude, WILSON'S NARRATIVE . WILSON'S , WILSON'S. Not somebody else's narrative about Wilson. WILSON'S. Not the Wilson narrative, that other people made up. WILSON'S. That's Wilson with an apostrophe S. HIS NARRATIVE.
Narrative definition-- story, account ( of events)
I will put it in a sentence for you.
Wilson, while giving his Grand Jury testimony gave his narrative(story, account) of how he sustained his injuries. Understand now?

Here is an example of what I'm talking about regarding distorting the truth. And I question whether you are sincere are about preferring the raw truth.
Turtle wrote--
'You know what the liberal agenda in that article is? It's stop killing unarmed black people and then patting yourself on the back for doing it!
Clearly, you are opposed to such an agenda.'

Your statement was directed at another member in this thread. On two of the three cases referenced(the Garner case and the 12 year old that was shot in Cleveland) the other member expressed disagreement with the actions of the officers. He clearly wasn't agreeing that they should pat themselves on the back for their actions. But this went over your head, and you decided to throw out some baseless distortion of a person's position.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Seems Barkly thinks a 'narrative' is what was said by just one person: a narrator, as in the books I listen to.
And a 'logical fallacy' is someone else's error, guaranteed.
And a truck [?] driver is more qualified to expound upon current events than a food critic.
Entertaining, it is. ;)
 

muttly

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Retired Expediter
Seems Barkly thinks a 'narrative' is what was said by just one person: a narrator, as in the books I listen to.
And a 'logical fallacy' is someone else's error, guaranteed.
And a truck [?] driver is more qualified to expound upon current events than a food critic.
Entertaining, it is. ;)

Umm, Cherry Cola, the paragraph in the article was referencing the Grand Jury and his 'narrative'.
From article--
'and his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events, a grand jury declined to indict Wilson. That is what American grand juries do.'

He was the ONLY ONE testifying at the time. And yes to your question.
 

Turtle

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Dude, WILSON'S NARRATIVE . WILSON'S , WILSON'S. Not somebody else's narrative about Wilson. WILSON'S. Not the Wilson narrative, that other people made up. WILSON'S. That's Wilson with an apostrophe S. HIS NARRATIVE.
Narrative definition-- story, account ( of events)
Yeah, I had a feeling that you thought the apostrophe S meant it was singular possessive and that the narrative cane from Wilson and belongs only to Wilson. There again is the problem with not understanding the definitions of words and in not understanding what you read. You have an amazing ability to read something (and I would imagine hear, as well) and comprehend what you want or need to be there, rather than comprehend what is actually said.

I wonder where you think Ferguson's narrative came from.

I will put it in a sentence for you.
Wilson, while giving his Grand Jury testimony gave his narrative(story, account) of how he sustained his injuries. Understand now?
While that is indeed a correct usage of narrative in a sentence, it does not accurately describe Wilson's narrative, nor where it was first came into the public's information of the incident.

The definition of narrative, is far more than story, account. It is a story (not THE story, but A story) or account of events, experiences, or the like, whether true or fictitious.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about regarding distorting the truth. And I question whether you are sincere are about preferring the raw truth.
Turtle wrote--
'You know what the liberal agenda in that article is? It's stop killing unarmed black people and then patting yourself on the back for doing it!
Clearly, you are opposed to such an agenda.'

Your statement was directed at another member in this thread. On two of the three cases referenced(the Garner case and the 12 year old that was shot in Cleveland) the other member expressed disagreement with the actions of the officers. He clearly wasn't agreeing that they should pat themselves on the back for their actions. But this went over your head, and you decided to throw out some baseless distortion of a person's position.
First, questioning whether or not I prefer the raw truth, and then presenting an opinion as a refutation of my sincerity of that preference, is not only yet another logical fallacy, it's just out-of-left-field retarded. My opinion was concluded based on his responses in his own words. There are few absolutes in anything, including his tendency look for ways to blame the dead guy when the dead guy is black and the one that killed him is a white cop. Not in all cases, no, but if it can be worked out to view it that way, that's where tends to go. He will dismiss the notion that white cops are generally afraid of black people, especially if they're big and black, and that white cops can and do often accelerate a situation to a dangerous one, including up to the point where the cop fears for his life, simply because that fear manifests itself in the cop misinterpreting every word, every movement, every facial expression as a threat. Suddenly the cop finds himself afraid for his life, when if he'd have just used rational judgment instead of letting irrational fear rule his actions and reactions, it never would have gotten to that point.

All the times that he kept mentioning that Brown was big, 6'4" big, and scary, he never once mentioned that Wilson is also big, 6'4" big, and carried a gun scary. Brown carried more weight, true enough, but Wilson and everyone else knows full well how that gun can be the great equalizer. What was that phrase? Oh, yeah, "factually incorrect by omission." What a hoot.

No, his opinions of the other two cases did not go over my head. He dismissed them himself when he chose to focus on the one paragraph in the article about Ferguson, because it's a case he feels strongly about, and use that to discredit the entire article.

Umm, Cherry Cola, the paragraph in the article was referencing the Grand Jury and his 'narrative'.
From article--
'and his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events, a grand jury declined to indict Wilson. That is what American grand juries do.'

He was the ONLY ONE testifying at the time. And yes to your question.
Here again, you aren't understanding what you read. Here's the entire sentence.

"Ten days ago, despite multiple eyewitness accounts and his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events, a grand jury declined to indict Wilson."

If that paragraph or that sentence was referencing Wilson's narrative to the grand jury, it would not have been worded that way. For one, grand jury testimony is not characterized as narrative, it is testimony under oath. Narrative can be true or not, but testimony under oath is presumed to be true.

Second, if that sentence was meant to reference Wilson's telling of events to the grand jury, then "Wilson's" would have been replaced with "his" because the pronoun "his" is defined at the end of the sentence with "Wilson." Otherwise, "his" is defined by "Wilson" at the end of the sentence, and "Wilson's" is referencing something other than either of those two things and the sentence makes no sense without a defined reference.

Third, as you have previously noted, Wilson's testimony to the grand jury matched that of the pictures of Wilson's face taken after the incident. But the face contradicted something, and it wasn't the testimony before the grand jury or the pictures. What was it, then? It contradicted "Wilson's narrative," or, yes, the "Wilson narrative," or simply the "narrative regarding Wilson's face and injuries." That's the only thing it could contradict. So it has to be something other than the pictures or his grand jury testimony, which means "Wilson's narrative" cannot be his testimony to the grand jury, it must be referring to something else.

The way that sentence breaks down into its constituent ideas is to remove the prepositional phrase, reposition by itself as its own idea, so that it becomes...

"Ten days ago a grand jury declined to indict Wilson. They did so despite multiple eyewitness accounts contradicting Wilson's narrative of the events, and despite Wilson's his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events."

When you do that it's pretty easy to see that there is a distinct difference between the singular possessive of Wilson's own face, and the possessive of the narrative that refers to Wilson, not necessarily by or from Wilson, but merely the narrative of Wilson. It's no different than Captain Kirk's narrative, which is the narrative about Captain Kirk, but we didn't get it from Captain Kirk himself, we got it from Gene Roddenberry.

I don't know why I even bother. By the time you've gotten to this sentence, you will have either dismissed everything I've said and are already looking for a way to contradict some little iota of minutiae in there somewhere, or you will not or cannot understand it in the first place. Or both. <shrug>

Are police afraid of black men?
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Barf,

More and more, as time marches on, you remind me of that tbubster fellow.

Methinks you two are kindred spirits ...
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yeah, I had a feeling that you thought the apostrophe S meant it was singular possessive and that the narrative cane from Wilson and belongs only to Wilson. There again is the problem with not understanding the definitions of words and in not understanding what you read. You have an amazing ability to read something (and I would imagine hear, as well) and comprehend what you want or need to be there, rather than comprehend what is actually said.

I wonder where you think Ferguson's narrative came from.

While that is indeed a correct usage of narrative in a sentence, it does not accurately describe Wilson's narrative, nor where it was first came into the public's information of the incident.

The definition of narrative, is far more than story, account. It is a story (not THE story, but A story) or account of events, experiences, or the like, whether true or fictitious.

First, questioning whether or not I prefer the raw truth, and then presenting an opinion as a refutation of my sincerity of that preference, is not only yet another logical fallacy, it's just out-of-left-field retarded. My opinion was concluded based on his responses in his own words. There are few absolutes in anything, including his tendency look for ways to blame the dead guy when the dead guy is black and the one that killed him is a white cop. Not in all cases, no, but if it can be worked out to view it that way, that's where tends to go. He will dismiss the notion that white cops are generally afraid of black people, especially if they're big and black, and that white cops can and do often accelerate a situation to a dangerous one, including up to the point where the cop fears for his life, simply because that fear manifests itself in the cop misinterpreting every word, every movement, every facial expression as a threat. Suddenly the cop finds himself afraid for his life, when if he'd have just used rational judgment instead of letting irrational fear rule his actions and reactions, it never would have gotten to that point.

All the times that he kept mentioning that Brown was big, 6'4" big, and scary, he never once mentioned that Wilson is also big, 6'4" big, and carried a gun scary. Brown carried more weight, true enough, but Wilson and everyone else knows full well how that gun can be the great equalizer. What was that phrase? Oh, yeah, "factually incorrect by omission." What a hoot.

No, his opinions of the other two cases did not go over my head. He dismissed them himself when he chose to focus on the one paragraph in the article about Ferguson, because it's a case he feels strongly about, and use that to discredit the entire article.


Here again, you aren't understanding what you read. Here's the entire sentence.

"Ten days ago, despite multiple eyewitness accounts and his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events, a grand jury declined to indict Wilson."

If that paragraph or that sentence was referencing Wilson's narrative to the grand jury, it would not have been worded that way. For one, grand jury testimony is not characterized as narrative, it is testimony under oath. Narrative can be true or not, but testimony under oath is presumed to be true.

Second, if that sentence was meant to reference Wilson's telling of events to the grand jury, then "Wilson's" would have been replaced with "his" because the pronoun "his" is defined at the end of the sentence with "Wilson." Otherwise, "his" is defined by "Wilson" at the end of the sentence, and "Wilson's" is referencing something other than either of those two things and the sentence makes no sense without a defined reference.

Third, as you have previously noted, Wilson's testimony to the grand jury matched that of the pictures of Wilson's face taken after the incident. But the face contradicted something, and it wasn't the testimony before the grand jury or the pictures. What was it, then? It contradicted "Wilson's narrative," or, yes, the "Wilson narrative," or simply the "narrative regarding Wilson's face and injuries." That's the only thing it could contradict. So it has to be something other than the pictures or his grand jury testimony, which means "Wilson's narrative" cannot be his testimony to the grand jury, it must be referring to something else.

The way that sentence breaks down into its constituent ideas is to remove the prepositional phrase, reposition by itself as its own idea, so that it becomes...

"Ten days ago a grand jury declined to indict Wilson. They did so despite multiple eyewitness accounts contradicting Wilson's narrative of the events, and despite Wilson's his own face contradicting Wilson's narrative of events."

When you do that it's pretty easy to see that there is a distinct difference between the singular possessive of Wilson's own face, and the possessive of the narrative that refers to Wilson, not necessarily by or from Wilson, but merely the narrative of Wilson. It's no different than Captain Kirk's narrative, which is the narrative about Captain Kirk, but we didn't get it from Captain Kirk himself, we got it from Gene Roddenberry.

I don't know why I even bother. By the time you've gotten to this sentence, you will have either dismissed everything I've said and are already looking for a way to contradict some little iota of minutiae in there somewhere, or you will not or cannot understand it in the first place. Or both. <shrug>

Are police afraid of black men?

Your response was something that Capt. Kirk would have in common alright. It's out there in space.
CONTEXT. CONTEXT. Twice you failed to use reasoning and context with your response.
The first, with your grasping at straws response with the term narrative and how you think it was used is just laughable. It is clear Burneko was referring to the Testimony in the Grand Jury. The paragraph referred to Grand Juries and WHAT THEY DO. He wasn't talking about other narratives outside the Grand Jury. But let's for a second use your explanation, that there were erroneous narratives about Wilson's injuries. IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT because the Grand Jury heard the testimony of Wilson(his narrative) and weighed that with the physical evidence, and the photos.
Officer Wilson's own testimony was that Brown took a full swing, but didn't fully connect. Deduction from that being, it is consistent with his injuries. He had a red, swollen face. It wasn't busted up because the punch didn't fully connect. I highly doubt that Burneko even understood the testimony. If he did, he is clearly misrepresenting facts.

The second was with Pilgrim.
Again, of the three cases referenced in this thread, there was ONLY ONE ( the Brown case) where he thought the officer acted justified. And you locked in with a narrow minded view with that case and dismissed his views of the other cases .
Pilgrim wrote--
'Both these cops should be held accountable and tried for murder for this kid's death.' (Tamir Rice case)

The other was the Garner case and the GJ ruling-- something about 'pitchforks and peasants' taking to the streets. And getting THE FEDS INVOLVED .

Is it any clearer now?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Your response was something that Capt. Kirk would have in common alright. It's out there in space.
Thanks for confirming what I predicted in my final paragraph. It's both.

CONTEXT. CONTEXT. Twice you failed to use reasoning and context with your response.
That's pretty funny coming from someone who repeatedly uses flawed logic and reasoning to reach conclusions, and wouldn't know context if it walked up and bit you in the butt. For example, you think the context of that paragraph is the testimony before the grand jury. It's not. Not even close.

The first, with your grasping at straws response with the term narrative and how you think it was used is just laughable.
To someone who has their own definitions of things and can't comprehend what they read, I'm sure it is laughable. But the fact is Wilson's narrative was already in the public's consciousness long before the grandy jury met in this case.

It is clear Burneko was referring to the Testimony in the Grand Jury.
In your mind there's no doubt about that, which you have indeed made quite clear.

The paragraph referred to Grand Juries and WHAT THEY DO.
Excellent example of not understanding what you read. The paragraph refers to the American justice system and how it deals with unarmed black people and the aftermath of the deaths thereof. That's the entire context of the article. You know, context.

He wasn't talking about other narratives outside the Grand Jury.
Yes, I know you believe that, but the written words say otherwise, as they are a continuation of the same narrative from the first paragraph within the context of the article.

But let's for a second use your explanation, that there were erroneous narratives about Wilson's injuries. IT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT because the Grand Jury heard the testimony of Wilson(his narrative) and weighed that with the physical evidence, and the photos.
Again, you still believe that Wilson's narrative and Wilson's testimony are both one-in-the-same, but they are two different things, with one occurring before the grand jury ever met and the other occurring in front of the grand jury. In the context of that article, and of reality. the erroneous narratives about Wilson's injuries are completely relevant, because those various narratives comprised, in part, "Wilson's narrative." Again, neither the article nor that paragraph is in the context of the grand jury. That's a context you had to make up in order to show the author is misrepresenting the facts.

Officer Wilson's own testimony was that Brown took a full swing, but didn't fully connect. Deduction from that being, it is consistent with his injuries. He had a red, swollen face. It wasn't busted up because the punch didn't fully connect. I highly doubt that Burneko even understood the testimony. If he did, he is clearly misrepresenting facts.
Again, why do
i even bother? The context of that paragraph, or the article, is not in the context of the grand jury testimony. The paragraph nor the article made any attempt whatsoever to delve into the grand jury testimony. Yet, that's the context you want to put it in. That's known as a straw man logical fallacy, whereby you create a new set of facts or context, refute or defeat the new parameters, and then claim victory over the original set of facts or context. The straw man is a well-worn tactic often used in highly emotional debates where defeating the enemy or their argument is more important than critical thinking or even than understanding the issues.

The second was with Pilgrim.
Again, of the three cases referenced in this thread, there was ONLY ONE ( the Brown case) where he thought the officer acted justified. And you locked in with a narrow minded view with that case and dismissed his views of the other cases .
If my conclusions were based solely on the three cases mentioned in this thread, it would indeed be narrow minded. But that's a pigeon-hole context you've created for me (another logical fallacy, incidentally). I assure you my conclusions were drawn from a much larger sample size than his comments contained within this thread.

Is it any clearer now?
Crystal, thanks. LOL
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"Factually incorrect by omission" isn't even a thing. LOL

It's a whopper of a logical fallacy, though, which isn't surprising coming from the king of same.
Disagreement on both counts. The author draws an false conclusion based on a set of facts that are intentionally incomplete. He also butchers the English language with statements such as "That's what American police do" instead of "That's what some American police have done". If there's a logical fallacy it comes from the author, who is misleading his readers to further his agenda.
The rest of your post is just more evidence that the police suspect, stop, arrest and charge blacks more than they do whites.
True and logical, since their crime rate is shown to be 5 times higher than that of whites.
How many deaths of unarmed black people at the hands of the police is acceptable to you?
None, if we lived in perfect world.
 

Turtle

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Staff member
Retired Expediter
US Army soldiers blow things up and kill people. That's what American soldiers do.

Sorry, that's factually inaccurate, and it butchers, butchers I tell you, despite being grammatically correct, the English language.

Some, but certainly not all soldiers in the US Army have, in the past, blown a few things up on occasion, and have been known to kill a relatively small number of people.

Thaaat's better. Softens the narrative and better tells the story I want to tell.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Careful there ... You'll have Pulaski's veins poppin' with anything less than devout worshipfulness when referencing the military ...
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
US Army soldiers blow things up and kill people. That's what American soldiers do.
"...New York police officers shot unarmed black man Sean Bell to death in the early morning hours of his wedding day. That is what American police do."

The American Justice System Is Not Broken
Sorry, that's factually inaccurate, and it butchers, butchers I tell you, despite being grammatically correct, the English language.

Some, but certainly not all Law Enforcement Officers in the US have, in the past been known to kill a relatively small number of people.

Thaaat's better. Softens the narrative and better tells the story that should be told accurately and completely.
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
... and better tells the story that should be told accurately and completely.
That's the crux of the problem right there. The paragraph you are so obsessed with, nor the article in which it is contained, isn't designed to tell the complete story of Ferguson. The Ferguson story is told elsewhere, and completely, just the way you like it. But because that article tells a story you don't like and isn't the one you want told, you go to great lengths to discredit it.
 

Pilgrim

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Retired Expediter
The article is misleading and omits critical facts, so it doesn't take much to discredit it.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Considering he falsely concluded Wilson's Grand Jury testimony about the altercation was 1. A lie (physical evidence corroborates Wilson's account)and 2. His lack of facial injuries( He had redness and swelling on one side of his face and scratches on neck --from Grand Jury photos) 100 % prove that he couldn't possibly have feared for his life, he does a good enough job in discrediting himself.
Someone can still fear for their life when someone is swinging wildly at their head, but doesn't fully connect with the punches and break facial bones.

It doesn't require his face bashed in to have a fear for his life.
 
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