Who should you use to send Hazmat?
- Thread starter arachnyd
- Start date
Since we are talking to readers now, and encouraging them to look things up, let me add this.
When looking the things up that Turtle recommends, be sure to read the "for purposes of" language. For the purpose of X, a word will be defined one way, but for the purpose of Y, the very same word may be defined another way. Also, pay close attention to the "applicability" language. In addition to defining words, regs regularly state the context in which they apply. A definition may seem to make perfect sense and support one's point, but if it does not apply to the context in question, it is not germane.
The definition of HAZMAT that Turtle cites is not the only definition found in the regs.
Happy hunting!
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I concur. Especially the applicability. That's the one thing that is critical to the understanding of the definitions and regulations with each section and subsection of the regs. If not understood in the proper applicability context, misunderstandings and misinterpretations can easily occur.
My point is, and I will eventually get around to detailing it, to get at what the definitions are and how they apply. First you need to know the definition of Commercial Motor Vehicle. Then the definition of HAZMAT. Then the requirements for hauling HAZMAT. Once you know those things, then everything dealing with HAZMAT will be in the proper context.
For example, you'll see how the information found on shipping papers is not what determines if something is HAZMAT, but rather is derived from the definition of HAZMAT itself. It's HAZMAT first, and then the shipping papers are prepared accordingly, not the other way around. Otherwise someone could mistakenly turn a load of empty skids into HAZMAT simply by mistakenly putting an X in the wrong column, which I've seen happen.
You'll also understand why calling, say, a 5-gallon bucket of paint, "HAZMAT" is technically incorrect if placarding is not required to haul it.
Basically, and with the exceptions noted accompanying the Tables, and knowing the requirement of having a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul HAZMAT, everything on Table 1 is HAZMAT and thus requires placarding and a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement.
Everything on Table 2 is not HAZMAT unless it is more than 1000 pounds. If it is 1001 pounds or more, you need a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement and it must be placarded. If it is 1000 pounds or less, then it is not HAZMAT, requires no placarding, and no CDL or endorsement of any kind to haul it. Again, there are exceptions, as noted along side the Tables.
People will refuse to read or understand some of the definitions and say things like this or that material is indeed HAZMAT but doesn't require placarding or a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul it. Yet the definition of HAZMAT itself includes the placarding requirement right there in the definition.
My point is, and I will eventually get around to detailing it, to get at what the definitions are and how they apply. First you need to know the definition of Commercial Motor Vehicle. Then the definition of HAZMAT. Then the requirements for hauling HAZMAT. Once you know those things, then everything dealing with HAZMAT will be in the proper context.
For example, you'll see how the information found on shipping papers is not what determines if something is HAZMAT, but rather is derived from the definition of HAZMAT itself. It's HAZMAT first, and then the shipping papers are prepared accordingly, not the other way around. Otherwise someone could mistakenly turn a load of empty skids into HAZMAT simply by mistakenly putting an X in the wrong column, which I've seen happen.
You'll also understand why calling, say, a 5-gallon bucket of paint, "HAZMAT" is technically incorrect if placarding is not required to haul it.
Basically, and with the exceptions noted accompanying the Tables, and knowing the requirement of having a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul HAZMAT, everything on Table 1 is HAZMAT and thus requires placarding and a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement.
Everything on Table 2 is not HAZMAT unless it is more than 1000 pounds. If it is 1001 pounds or more, you need a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement and it must be placarded. If it is 1000 pounds or less, then it is not HAZMAT, requires no placarding, and no CDL or endorsement of any kind to haul it. Again, there are exceptions, as noted along side the Tables.
People will refuse to read or understand some of the definitions and say things like this or that material is indeed HAZMAT but doesn't require placarding or a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul it. Yet the definition of HAZMAT itself includes the placarding requirement right there in the definition.
Have to enjoy some good debate-
Thank you Turtle and ATeam for being able to debate a topic and disagree on a topic without taking it personally or making personal attacks. This is very informative for all of us, and your demeanor is very impressive. I wish more people on the forums (and around the world) could debate topics in such a professional, responsible manner!!!
Thank you Turtle and ATeam for being able to debate a topic and disagree on a topic without taking it personally or making personal attacks. This is very informative for all of us, and your demeanor is very impressive. I wish more people on the forums (and around the world) could debate topics in such a professional, responsible manner!!!
This is actually some pretty dry stuff and I would have thought everyone would have lost interest in the reg-speak long before readers got this deep into the thread. Seeing that at least one reader is continuing to read, I will continue to build my case, but only as time permits. I am deep into two other projects these days. Time spent here is time away from those.
For now, I will offer this definition of HAZMAT that I came across today. That makes at least two to consider; the one Turtle cites and this one:
49 CFR 171.8
Hazardous material means a substance
or material that the Secretary of
Transportation has determined is capable
of posing an unreasonable risk to
health, safety, and property when
transported in commerce, and has designated
as hazardous under section 5103
of Federal hazardous materials transportation
law (49 U.S.C. 5103). The term
includes hazardous substances, hazardous
wastes, marine pollutants, elevated
temperature materials, materials
designated as hazardous in the
Hazardous Materials Table (see 49 CFR
172.101), and materials that meet the
defining criteria for hazard classes and
divisions in part 173 of subchapter C of
this chapter.
Supporting my point -- that if it is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table, it is HAZMAT -- is this language from the above definition:
"The term includes ... materials designated as
hazardous in the Hazardous Materials Table
(see 49 CFR 172.101), ..."
Regarding the applicability of 49 CFR 171, from which the above definition comes, see this.
More to follow as time permits.
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Phil: I'm not seeing where your point is supported by the snippet you quoted - it says "the term includes [ellipse] materials designated as hazmat" but it doesn't follow that every substance listed in the hazmat tables is hazmat in every instance.
Same as every commercial vehicle isn't necessarily a commercial motor vehicle: depends on the weight. As I said before, the confusion is from people using the terms interchangeably, when in the strictest legal sense, they're not. Hazmat is hazmat for the truck driver when it requires placards, [and the appropriate endorsement] not otherwise.
Like Turtle, I have transported substances in a cargo van that would be classified as hazmat in larger quantities, but were not so classified in the amount shipped. Again: it depends on the weight.
Same as every commercial vehicle isn't necessarily a commercial motor vehicle: depends on the weight. As I said before, the confusion is from people using the terms interchangeably, when in the strictest legal sense, they're not. Hazmat is hazmat for the truck driver when it requires placards, [and the appropriate endorsement] not otherwise.
Like Turtle, I have transported substances in a cargo van that would be classified as hazmat in larger quantities, but were not so classified in the amount shipped. Again: it depends on the weight.
Again, precise language, things like prepositional phrases.
I]"The term includes ... materials designated as hazardous in the Hazardous Materials Table
(see 49 CFR 172.101), ..."[/I]
As opposed to materials designated as hazardous in some OTHER location. So now you know where to look to see what materials are designated as hazardous, you go to the Hazardous Materials Table and see which materials on that table is designated as hazardous, and you do so without assuming that every item on that table is so designated as hazardous in any and all quantities. The rule of prepositional phrases is you can leave them off and the sentence still makes sense.
I]"The term includes ... materials designated as hazardous."[/I]
OK, where do I find that information?
I]",in the Hazardous Materials Table
(see 49 CFR 172.101), ..."[/I]
Well, OK. So that's where you look.
Upon looking, you will see some materials listed on the table which are NOT designated as hazardous. Depends on the quantity. Don't assume that it's hazardous material solely because it is on that table. That would be trying to use common sense, a fatal flaw with regard to the DOT. The expanded definition above doesn't directly define what is hazardous, it merely tells you where to find those materials.
A fair comment, but it remains the case that every item listed on the Hazardous Materials Table is HAZMAT, regardless of weight, placards or the kind of vehicle it is placed in.
Given your comment, it now falls to me to provide the bridge you seek, that is, to show in the regs exactly why it does follow that every substance listed in the Hazardous Materials Table is HAZMAT in every instance (for our purposes as truck drivers who transport the stuff). Give me some time and I will do that.
I am arguing that HAZMAT is HAZMAT because the material or substance is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table. What HAZMAT is for a truck driver is something else and I do not disagree with you.
Think in terms of triggers and let's talk about a hypothetical item called Item X.
You arrive at a loading dock to pick up Item X. As it happens, Item X is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table. That fact, and that fact alone defines Item X as HAZMAT. (Again, it falls to me to provide that bridge, and I will, but I maintain now that this is true.)
Now that we know the item is HAZMAT, we can ask, what else is triggered because it is HAZMAT?
One thing that Item X's HAZMAT status triggers the the shipping paper regulations. It is the shipper's responsibility to prepare them correctly, which, in this case, would include identifying Item X as HAZMAT. It is the driver's responsibility to make sure the shipping papers are properly prepared, whether placards are required on the vehicle or not. (If the shipping papers are not properly prepared, the driver can be cited for a violation if caught.)
Something that may or may not be triggered by Item X's HAZMAT status is the requirement to placard the vehicle. It is the driver's responsibility to properly placard the vehicle (assume commercial vehicle please) if placards are required.
What triggers the vehicle placard requirement? Often it is the weight of the HAZMAT shipment. With many HAZMAT shipments, the regulations will require placards if the weight is over 1,001 lbs, and will not require placards if the weight is less than that. However, that is not always the case. Some HAZMAT shipments require placards in all circumstances.
To know for sure, I would consult the Hazardous Materials Table in the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook regarding the item in question. If a placard is listed in the placard advisory column, placards may be required. If you wanted to disregard the significance of the asterisk (present or absent) in the placard advisory column, because, as Turtle correctly states, the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook is not an official publication, the next step would be to go to the tables in 172.504; those are the Table 1 and Table 2 Turtle mentioned above.
However, no HAZMAT class I have ever attended and no carrier I have ever been leased onto has provided me with copies of Tables 1 or 2 or a publication in which they can be found. The carriers (FedEx Custom Critical and Landstar, who do thousands of HAZMAT shipments every month) provide the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook to use instead.
Turtle is correct. the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook is not an official DOT publication. Nevertheless, it is a reliable source that gathers pertinent information from the regs and organizes it for easy driver use (to the extent that HAZMAT is easy). The carriers that are on the hook for HAZMAT liability would not use this publication and train its contractors to do the same if it was not faithful to the regs. (That said, the Pocketbook's limitations become immediately evident when people start debating the regs and play dueling definitions.)
Back to Item X. Let's assume their is nothing exotic about Item X and placards are required if more than 1,001 lbs. of the stuff is being shipped.
Let's also say that 1,500 lbs. of Item X is being shipped. In this case, the weight of the HAZMAT triggers the requirement to placard the vehicle.
Do vehicle placards trigger anything? Yes they do and there is no disagreement here. If the vehicle is placarded, the driver of that vehicle must have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL to legally drive that vehicle while it is so loaded and placarded.
If say 500 lbs. of Item X was being shipped, it would still be HAZMAT because it is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table. It would still be the driver's responsibility to make sure that the shipping papers are properly prepared in accordance with HAZMAT regs, Placards would not be required, And the driver would not need a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL to drive the vehicle.
The weight makes a difference regarding the requirement to placard the van. It does not make a difference in defining the substance as HAZMAT. Nor does the weight make a difference in requiring the driver to have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL. The presence or absence of placards determine that.
Note that one thing triggers another. If the vehicle is placarded, the HAZMAT-endorsed CDL requirement is triggered.
If the weight is over 1,001 lbs (in this hypothetical case), the vehicle placard requirement is triggered.
If the item is defined as HAZMAT, the need is triggered for the driver to inspect the shipping papers, note the weight, determine the placard requirements and verify that his or her CDL endorsements (or lack of them) are appropriate for the load.
Finally, with cargo vans and HAZMAT, logging requirements and commercial vehicle status comes into play, but that is van stuff and I'll leave that to those who know it best.
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That is precicely the assumption I am making and the assertion too. Please see my comments in my reply to Cheri about the bridge I will provide, and please give me time to provide it.
I am not without support on this. My wife and codriver Diane is learned in the law (worked as an attorney before becoming an expediter). She knows a thing or two about interpreting the regs. An expert at the Landstar HAZMAT department also agrees that if it's on the Hazardous Materials Table, (that is its name, not its quantity), it's HAZMAT.
More to follow.
Looking forward, Turtle, to reading the detailed points of the case you wish to make.
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I'm not trying to make a case, and if I were I certainly wouldn't need to create a bridge to do so. I'm merely reiterating what the regs themselves say, without adding something that's not there, or assuming things not in evidence.
In order to haul HAZMAT you must have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. This is not in dispute and is irrefutable. Your conclusion that the definition of HAZMAT is anything listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials is inconsistent with the requirements of hauling it, not to mention inconsistent with the actual definition of Hazardous Materials. That can only happen if you assume something to be true which is not true, or if you introduce something outside of the regs
Common sense tells you, and me, that the Table of Hazardous Materials contains a list if Hazardous Materials, and anything in that list is Hazardous Materials. The problem is, that's not what the definition of Hazardous Materials states. The definitions stares the Table if Hazardous Materials is where you will find the items designated as Hazardous Materials, and makes no comment whatsoever about whether or not every item on the list is so designated. One must make an assumption in order for that to happen. It's a common sense assumption, albeit an incorrect one.
In order to haul HAZMAT you must have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. This is not in dispute and is irrefutable. Your conclusion that the definition of HAZMAT is anything listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials is inconsistent with the requirements of hauling it, not to mention inconsistent with the actual definition of Hazardous Materials. That can only happen if you assume something to be true which is not true, or if you introduce something outside of the regs
Common sense tells you, and me, that the Table of Hazardous Materials contains a list if Hazardous Materials, and anything in that list is Hazardous Materials. The problem is, that's not what the definition of Hazardous Materials states. The definitions stares the Table if Hazardous Materials is where you will find the items designated as Hazardous Materials, and makes no comment whatsoever about whether or not every item on the list is so designated. One must make an assumption in order for that to happen. It's a common sense assumption, albeit an incorrect one.
HAZMAT is many things to many people. Depending on what is going on with it, different regulations apply. If it is being stored in a warehouse with other chemicals, regs apply that you and I would have little concern about. So too if it is being flown on a plane or transported by rail across an international border.
"HAZMAT is for a truck driver" compares to "HAZMAT is for a warehouse operator." Each person who deals with HAZMAT is required to follow the regs that apply in that person's circumstances.
Compared to non-truck drivers, HAZMAT is something different for a truck driver. But before a truck driver can know what regs apply, he or she must know if an item is HAZMAT at all. For that, one turns to the Hazardous Materials Table.
To say, because the truck requires placards it is HAZMAT, puts it exactly backwards. Putting placards on the truck do not make the freight HAZMAT. Placards are put on the truck because the freight is HAZMAT.
Placards don't transform freight from one substance into another. Placards warn people that HAZMAT is in the truck. Some HAZMAT presents greater risks than others which is why placards are required with some HAZMAT at any weight and with other HAZMAT at weights over 1,001 lbs.
As with placards, so too with weight. Weight does not turn something into HAZMAT. Lots of freight weighs over 1,001 lbs. It only gets placarded if it is HAZMAT over 1,001 lbs. (Table 2).
To know if something over 1,001 lbs. requires placards on the truck, the weight alone will not tell you. You have to know if the item is HAZMAT too.
To find that out, you look it up in the Hazardous Materials Table. If it is listed in the table in any weight, it is HAZMAT. If it weighs over 1,001 lbs. placards are required on the truck.
This does not have to be hard.
Is it HAZMAT, yes or no?
If yes, how much does it weigh?
Given its HAZMAT status and weight, what shipping papers, placarding, CDL and other requirements are triggered for the truck driver?
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I agree with this, Turtle. And, at present, I admit that I am making the assumption you describe. Cheri made the same point.
Now, if I can show you with the regs that my assumption is based in fact (and I intend to do exactly that), and that the regs themselves state that every item listed in the Hazardous Materials Table is HAZMAT by virtue of them being listed there, what would you say?
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Starcheck1
Seasoned Expediter
I was typing this up when Phil responded. There are also some links following my comments that are good for newbies as well as veterans of the industry.
Phil is correct that everything listed on the DOT HazMat Table (some carriers copy and add additional information) is HazMat and certain attributes of the shipment or later events such as additional shipments being picked up my trigger certain regulations.
Most if not all of you are aware of the following; however it is good information for newcomers.
Commercial Motor Vehicle: Basically any vehicle in commerce with a GVWR in excess of 10,000 lbs or requires placarding regardless of size including cars.
If the vehicle requires placarding, the driver must have a HazMat endorsement.
As mentioned earlier all items listed on the HazMat table are HazMat based upon the guidelines in the document. The shipper is responsible for accurately filling out the paperwork. The driver shares responsibility for reviewing the paperwork prior to accepting the shipment (whether or not the driver has a CDL). That being said, the Feds will usually put all of the responsibility on the Shipper.
The HazMat material listed in the table may not require a CDL or HazMat endorsement if the shipment weighs less than an amount requiring placards; however, it may become hazmat if the driver picks up another load (I realize expediters usually have not more than one load, but it gets the point across) of HazMat where the total of both shipments is now a quantity that the vehicle requires placarding; therefore the driver would need to have a CDL with HazMat endorsement. (Good example in the shipping paper link below).
If you are driving a cargo van and the HazMat is less than an amount requiring placards, you do not need a CDL w/ HazMat endorsement (you can't get a HazMat endorsement unless you have a CDL). If it is a quantity requiring placards then you need a CDL with HazMat endorsement.
HazMat has different thresholds for certain modes of transport. For example Acetylene, dissolved 2.1 UN1001 is HazMat and requires placards if more than 1,000 lbs; however it is forbidden to be transported on Passenger aircraft, but may be transported on Cargo aircraft in small quantities. It is also considered a Hazardous material when sitting in a warehouse. A driver can pick up one shipment of Acetylene weighing 700 lbs. without requiring placards; therefore does not need HazMat endorsement and may not need a CDL if placed in cargo van, Sprinter, or other vehicle less than 26,001 GVWR. However, if the driver makes an additional pickup of the same or another type of HazMat that weighs 301 lbs. the driver now needs a CDL with a HM endorsement since the total weight is more than 1,000 lbs.
Radiopharms... Class 7, yellow III require a CDL with HazMat endorsement in ANY quantity.
It is permissible to haul hazmat in cargo vans; requiring or not requiring placards.
This is why general awareness training should be given to ALL drivers so they know the basic requirements to review paperwork and identify commodities that they may not be authorized to pick up.
Shipping Paper Regulations:
https://hazmatonline.phmsa.dot.gov/...ments/Guide for Preparing Shipping Papers.pdf
Commercial Motor Carrier Groups:
Commercial motor vehicle groups. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
Placarding guidelines:
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfile...esentation/Placarding_Requirements(04-07).pdf
How to Comply with Hazmat Regs:
How to Comply with Federal Hazardous Materials Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
HazMat Table 2:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
Phil is correct that everything listed on the DOT HazMat Table (some carriers copy and add additional information) is HazMat and certain attributes of the shipment or later events such as additional shipments being picked up my trigger certain regulations.
Most if not all of you are aware of the following; however it is good information for newcomers.
Commercial Motor Vehicle: Basically any vehicle in commerce with a GVWR in excess of 10,000 lbs or requires placarding regardless of size including cars.
If the vehicle requires placarding, the driver must have a HazMat endorsement.
As mentioned earlier all items listed on the HazMat table are HazMat based upon the guidelines in the document. The shipper is responsible for accurately filling out the paperwork. The driver shares responsibility for reviewing the paperwork prior to accepting the shipment (whether or not the driver has a CDL). That being said, the Feds will usually put all of the responsibility on the Shipper.
The HazMat material listed in the table may not require a CDL or HazMat endorsement if the shipment weighs less than an amount requiring placards; however, it may become hazmat if the driver picks up another load (I realize expediters usually have not more than one load, but it gets the point across) of HazMat where the total of both shipments is now a quantity that the vehicle requires placarding; therefore the driver would need to have a CDL with HazMat endorsement. (Good example in the shipping paper link below).
If you are driving a cargo van and the HazMat is less than an amount requiring placards, you do not need a CDL w/ HazMat endorsement (you can't get a HazMat endorsement unless you have a CDL). If it is a quantity requiring placards then you need a CDL with HazMat endorsement.
HazMat has different thresholds for certain modes of transport. For example Acetylene, dissolved 2.1 UN1001 is HazMat and requires placards if more than 1,000 lbs; however it is forbidden to be transported on Passenger aircraft, but may be transported on Cargo aircraft in small quantities. It is also considered a Hazardous material when sitting in a warehouse. A driver can pick up one shipment of Acetylene weighing 700 lbs. without requiring placards; therefore does not need HazMat endorsement and may not need a CDL if placed in cargo van, Sprinter, or other vehicle less than 26,001 GVWR. However, if the driver makes an additional pickup of the same or another type of HazMat that weighs 301 lbs. the driver now needs a CDL with a HM endorsement since the total weight is more than 1,000 lbs.
Radiopharms... Class 7, yellow III require a CDL with HazMat endorsement in ANY quantity.
It is permissible to haul hazmat in cargo vans; requiring or not requiring placards.
This is why general awareness training should be given to ALL drivers so they know the basic requirements to review paperwork and identify commodities that they may not be authorized to pick up.
Shipping Paper Regulations:
https://hazmatonline.phmsa.dot.gov/...ments/Guide for Preparing Shipping Papers.pdf
Commercial Motor Carrier Groups:
Commercial motor vehicle groups. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
Placarding guidelines:
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfile...esentation/Placarding_Requirements(04-07).pdf
How to Comply with Hazmat Regs:
How to Comply with Federal Hazardous Materials Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
HazMat Table 2:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
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Monty
Expert Expediter
I do believe Phil summed it rather nicely here.
Do not over think the issue. One can always get caught up in what if's to the point your head reels with confusion.
Follow the advise I qouted from Phil, you will be ok
If you care to play a "slip and fall" lawyer, looking for loop holes, you will certainly find them! Our governmental regulations were written by this type of people. And often one department writing a regulation willl be in direct conflict with another department addressing the same issue.
I would say that you're my daddy and that you are right and that I and the people I know who do HAZMAT shipping for a living are wrong. I know I won't have to say any if that, however, because of two very simple things: the unambiguous requirement that you must have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement in order to be able to legally haul HAZMAT, and HAZMAT is defined as those materials listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials which require placarding. Any material shipped which does not meet these two criteria is not hazardous material which presents an unreasonable risk to the public or the environment, which is the basic applicability and purpose and scope of the regulations.
You state that weight doesn't turn something into HAZMAT. Yet in some cases that is precisely what occurs. The whole reason behind the HAZMAT regulations is to protect the public and the environment from unreasonable risk. There are many substances which do not pose an unreasonable risk to the public or the environment when shipped in certain quantities, but do, in fact, present such risks when shipped in larger quantities. Materials which do not present an unreasonable risk are not designated as Hazardous Materials, and those that do pose an unreasonable risk are designated as Hazardous Materials. Keeping in mind that the definition of Hazardous Materials is materials listed on the Table of Hazardous Materials which require placarding, the weight of a substance is often the very factor of determination.
zorry
Veteran Expediter
The question was Who do you send to get Hazmat ?
The answer is Fedex or Landstar.
Companies that should be able to do it right and are responsible enough to be responsible if they goof up.
They also have deep pockets in case of an error.
Company choices listed in alphabetical order.
The answer is Fedex or Landstar.
Companies that should be able to do it right and are responsible enough to be responsible if they goof up.
They also have deep pockets in case of an error.
Company choices listed in alphabetical order.