in post #20 he was referring to a cargo van..=CV
Who should you use to send Hazmat?
- Thread starter arachnyd
- Start date
in post #20 he was referring to a cargo van..=CV
HAZMAT is hazardous material which requires placarding. If it doesn't require placarding, it's not HAZMAT. If it does, then it is. It's very simple. In order to haul HAZMAT you must have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. The vehicle you drive is irrelevant.
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So Turtle you are saying if it is less than 1001 lbs it is not hazmat?
What about the endorsement question?
Sorry, your edited reply addressed this.
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I believe some types of product are hazmat regardless of weight but i am far from an expert.
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The answer to question 2 is yes. If you haul HAZMAT, then it's HAZMAT, regardless of the weight. In order for something to be classified as HAZMAT, it must be listed in the Table of Hazardous Materials, AND, not OR, but AND, be in a quantity which requires placarding. Some materials require placarding in any amount, even one pound, some do not require placards until they reach a certain quantity, most often 1001 pounds. Those that do not require placards are thus not HAZMAT and do not require a CDL with an endorsement.
For example, a commonly expedited material is copper sulfate, used to cook chicken at processing plants like Pilgrim's Pride. It's often shipped in 50 lb bags. If the total shipped is 1000 pounds or less, its not HAZMAT, and you don't need a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul it. If it is 1001 lbs or more, it's HAZMAT which requires placarding (Class 9), and a CDL with the endorsement. This is true regardless of what type of vehicle you are hauling it in, be it a big truck, a van, or a passenger car.
For example, a commonly expedited material is copper sulfate, used to cook chicken at processing plants like Pilgrim's Pride. It's often shipped in 50 lb bags. If the total shipped is 1000 pounds or less, its not HAZMAT, and you don't need a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement to haul it. If it is 1001 lbs or more, it's HAZMAT which requires placarding (Class 9), and a CDL with the endorsement. This is true regardless of what type of vehicle you are hauling it in, be it a big truck, a van, or a passenger car.
EasyDoesIt
Active Expediter
It is true that all hazmat materials do not require placards. I was taught that if the BOL has any item flagged as hazardous material you need a hazmat endorsement to haul it regardless of quanity or placards.
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If the BOL has any item flagged as HAZMAT, and it's correctly flagged, then it's HAZMAT and requires placards. If it doesn't require placards, then it should not be flagged as HAZMAT on the BOL. What makes something HAZMAT is not whether or not it's flagged on the BOL, but rather if it is on the Table of Hazardous Materials and is in a quantity which requires placarding.
There is no such thing as non-placardable HAZMAT. Either it is HAZMAT, or it is not. If it is, you need a CDL with the endorsement and placards, if it is not HAZMAT then you don't need any of those things to haul it.
There is no such thing as non-placardable HAZMAT. Either it is HAZMAT, or it is not. If it is, you need a CDL with the endorsement and placards, if it is not HAZMAT then you don't need any of those things to haul it.
You might want to take another look at this, Turtle. I do not believe it to be correct. Diane and I have hauled many HAZMAT loads that were correctly flagged as such on the shipping papers but did not require placards.
Shipping papers are required with most HAZMAT. Placards may or may not be required, depending on what the Hazardous Materials Table states.
If the material is HAZMAT and shipping papers are required, it must be indicated as HAZMAT on the shipping papers.
See page 25 of your Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook for the three ways that indication may be made.
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Looking at the Hazardous Materials Table, I find no listing for "copper sulfate." Nor do I find a listing for it in the Hazardous Substances Table. Where are you finding copper sulfate to be Class 9 HAZMAT?
The shipping papers do not determine whether or not something is HAZMAT. Shipping papers have their own set of rules are are filled out based on what the shipment is. First thing you have to know is the definition of HAZMAT. The DOT defines it as:
The way that materials are designated as hazardous is the Secretary of the Department of Transportation determines that a material poses an unreasonable risk to the population or the environment. Many materials pose such a risk in any and all quantities, while other materials pose such risks only in certain quantities.
The key part of the definition is the material must be designated as hazardous, and it must be required to be placarded. If the material doesn't meet both of these two requirements, it is not hazardous material (HAZMAT). The language is very precise. Everything in the regulations concerning hazardous material hinges on knowing the correct definition of HAZMAT. Assumptions should not be made.
There are certain materials, most notably those found on Table 2, which are HAZMAT, but only in certain quantities, and in lesser quantities are not considered HAZMAT by the Department of Transportation (for the purposes of transportation). Table 2 materials which are not in quantity to require placarding may be hauled by anyone without having to have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. To refer to such material as HAZMAT (or even non-placardable HAZMAT, of which I am often guilty) is incorrect, since you must have a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement to haul HAZMAT. I use the term "non-placardable HAZMAT" to indicate Table 2 materials which would be placardable in quantities of more than 1000 pounds, but are not otherwise required to be placarded or require an endorsement. I'm trying to get away from that.
Page 25 of the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook does, indeed indicate the three ways in which HAZMAT is to be indicared on the shipping papers (except mine is page 23, not 25). Pages 22-26 of the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook describe the requirements for shipping papers, and in all instances those requirements are for hazardous materials, including those on page 25 (my page 23). In fact, the sentence preceding the the three ways states:
"Hazardous materials are required to be identified on shipping papers in one of three ways."
One of the most important parts of that sentence is the first two words, "hazardous materials".
Since we know the definition of hazardous materials, there should be little confusion on how shipping papers are to be filled out. The "X" in the "HM" column is to denote Hazardous Materials, as defined above, not non-hazardous materials.
In fact, in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:172.201 it states...
(4) A shipping paper may contain additional information concerning the material provided the information is not inconsistent with the required description. Unless otherwise permitted or required by this subpart, additional information must be placed after the basic description required by §172.202(a).
A HM column marked with an X for a non-hazardous material is not consistent with the required description and applicability of the paperwork requirements. Applicability can be found in 172.200:
The confusion, I think, most often comes from the Table 2 stuff. If it's on that table and is 1001 pounds or more, it's HAZMAT and must be placarded. If it's on that table and is 1000 pounds or less, it's really and truly not hazardous material according to the Secretary of Transportation and thus requires no placarding or endorsement, and no indication in the HM column on shipping papers. Don't assume the shipper always prepares the paperwork correctly. If the freight is a 50 pound bag of copper sulfate and the shipping papers are marked with an "X" in the HM column, then the shipping papers are, absolutely, incorrectly prepared. The reverse is also true, where I have seen HAZMAT freight not properly marked in the HM column. That kind of stuff, either way, gets corrected by the shipper before I take the freight.
Oftentimes, and it's easy and natural to do, people read the HAZMAT regulations and will apply them outside the scope of the regulations themselves. They make assumptions and leaps based on common sense, rather than on the details of the regulations. It's not unlike the other topic in this thread, where people read the hours-of-service regulations, which apply to commercial motor vehicles, and start applying them outside the scope of commercial motor vehicles. Like the example used where someone works on the weekend at Ace Hardware, while driving a CMV during the week, and having to log their work time at Ace Hardware. The same rules apply to a cargo van driver, but only if the cargo van driver was operating a CMV during the previous 7 days. If not, then the regulations cannot be applied outside the scope of what they cover. Once those 7 days are over, your logging days are over, you are no longer required to log at all, ever, unless you operate a CMV. It's very much like your very first week in a big truck. How in the world did you log those previous 7 days? You didn't, of course, because you weren't required to. It's the same when you drive a cargo van. If you haul a HAZMAT load once in a while, you have to continue to log for 7 days after hauling the load, but once those 7 days are up, you no longer have to log, since you aren't driving a CMV anymore. If you haul one HAZMAT load per week, then you have to log essentially all the time. But if it's once a month or once a quarter, you only have to log for 7 days.
Hauling HAZMAT in a cargo van requires special diligence beyond that of most who haul it in a big truck, as you have to be more intimate with certain regulations that big truck drivers rarely need to concern themselves with. The biggest one is knowing which types of HAZMAT cannot be hauled in the cab of a truck. It's something most big truck drivers never even think about, because they don't haul freight in their cab, much less HAZMAT freight in the cab. But cargo vans do. Every load on a cargo van is considered to be in the cab of a truck, regardless of whether the van has a bulkhead.
Because of the importance of knowing the regulations of what can and cannot be hauled in a cargo van, and what is and is not considered HAZMAT, I made a concerted effort to educate myself on the matter. That included reading the rules and regulations, of course, but also included in-depth conversations with a very good friend of mine who is the DOT complainace officer in charge of highway, rail, air and marine transportation at Vanderbilt Chemical (subsidiary of R.T. Vanderbilt) in my home town. His job is to know these rules forwards and backwards. I have benefited greatly from his knowledge.
Copper Sulfate is classified as UN 3077, with the Proper Shipping Name of:
ENVIRONMENTALLY HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES, SOLID, N.O.S.
Other Names: Blue copper, Blue stone, Blue vitriol, Copper (II) sulfate, Copper sulfate, Cupric sulfate, Cupric sulphate, Sulfate de Cuivre
DG/ADR Class: 9
Packing Group: III
Hazchem Code: 2X
Poisons Schedule: S6
N.O.S. is used when the a chemical's name does not specifically appear in the HMT. There are lots of substances like that. Alcohol is one. While ethanol appears in the table and has a proper shipping name of Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol, an alcohol that is not listed specifically in the table will be described as "Alcohol, n.o.s" or "Flammable liquid, n.o.s".
I used copper sulfate because it is an often expedited material used in agriculture as a soil additive, pesticide, feed additive, a germicide, a leather and textile mordant, a pigment in the printing industry, in the manufacture of batteries, in electroplating and electro refining of copper, in the production of certain medicines, as a wood and pulp preservative, in engraving and lithography, in ore, steel and rubber processing, as an asphalt treatment, and in chicken processing plants. It's a chemical that I'm very familiar with. Also because it's a Class 9, which is kind of a catch-all Class that can confuse people.
The way that materials are designated as hazardous is the Secretary of the Department of Transportation determines that a material poses an unreasonable risk to the population or the environment. Many materials pose such a risk in any and all quantities, while other materials pose such risks only in certain quantities.
The key part of the definition is the material must be designated as hazardous, and it must be required to be placarded. If the material doesn't meet both of these two requirements, it is not hazardous material (HAZMAT). The language is very precise. Everything in the regulations concerning hazardous material hinges on knowing the correct definition of HAZMAT. Assumptions should not be made.
There are certain materials, most notably those found on Table 2, which are HAZMAT, but only in certain quantities, and in lesser quantities are not considered HAZMAT by the Department of Transportation (for the purposes of transportation). Table 2 materials which are not in quantity to require placarding may be hauled by anyone without having to have a CDL with a HAZMAT endorsement. To refer to such material as HAZMAT (or even non-placardable HAZMAT, of which I am often guilty) is incorrect, since you must have a CDL and a HAZMAT endorsement to haul HAZMAT. I use the term "non-placardable HAZMAT" to indicate Table 2 materials which would be placardable in quantities of more than 1000 pounds, but are not otherwise required to be placarded or require an endorsement. I'm trying to get away from that.
Page 25 of the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook does, indeed indicate the three ways in which HAZMAT is to be indicared on the shipping papers (except mine is page 23, not 25). Pages 22-26 of the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook describe the requirements for shipping papers, and in all instances those requirements are for hazardous materials, including those on page 25 (my page 23). In fact, the sentence preceding the the three ways states:
"Hazardous materials are required to be identified on shipping papers in one of three ways."
One of the most important parts of that sentence is the first two words, "hazardous materials".
Since we know the definition of hazardous materials, there should be little confusion on how shipping papers are to be filled out. The "X" in the "HM" column is to denote Hazardous Materials, as defined above, not non-hazardous materials.
In fact, in the Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:172.201 it states...
(4) A shipping paper may contain additional information concerning the material provided the information is not inconsistent with the required description. Unless otherwise permitted or required by this subpart, additional information must be placed after the basic description required by §172.202(a).
A HM column marked with an X for a non-hazardous material is not consistent with the required description and applicability of the paperwork requirements. Applicability can be found in 172.200:
Again, note the use of the term "hazardous material". It's very specific.
The confusion, I think, most often comes from the Table 2 stuff. If it's on that table and is 1001 pounds or more, it's HAZMAT and must be placarded. If it's on that table and is 1000 pounds or less, it's really and truly not hazardous material according to the Secretary of Transportation and thus requires no placarding or endorsement, and no indication in the HM column on shipping papers. Don't assume the shipper always prepares the paperwork correctly. If the freight is a 50 pound bag of copper sulfate and the shipping papers are marked with an "X" in the HM column, then the shipping papers are, absolutely, incorrectly prepared. The reverse is also true, where I have seen HAZMAT freight not properly marked in the HM column. That kind of stuff, either way, gets corrected by the shipper before I take the freight.
Oftentimes, and it's easy and natural to do, people read the HAZMAT regulations and will apply them outside the scope of the regulations themselves. They make assumptions and leaps based on common sense, rather than on the details of the regulations. It's not unlike the other topic in this thread, where people read the hours-of-service regulations, which apply to commercial motor vehicles, and start applying them outside the scope of commercial motor vehicles. Like the example used where someone works on the weekend at Ace Hardware, while driving a CMV during the week, and having to log their work time at Ace Hardware. The same rules apply to a cargo van driver, but only if the cargo van driver was operating a CMV during the previous 7 days. If not, then the regulations cannot be applied outside the scope of what they cover. Once those 7 days are over, your logging days are over, you are no longer required to log at all, ever, unless you operate a CMV. It's very much like your very first week in a big truck. How in the world did you log those previous 7 days? You didn't, of course, because you weren't required to. It's the same when you drive a cargo van. If you haul a HAZMAT load once in a while, you have to continue to log for 7 days after hauling the load, but once those 7 days are up, you no longer have to log, since you aren't driving a CMV anymore. If you haul one HAZMAT load per week, then you have to log essentially all the time. But if it's once a month or once a quarter, you only have to log for 7 days.
Hauling HAZMAT in a cargo van requires special diligence beyond that of most who haul it in a big truck, as you have to be more intimate with certain regulations that big truck drivers rarely need to concern themselves with. The biggest one is knowing which types of HAZMAT cannot be hauled in the cab of a truck. It's something most big truck drivers never even think about, because they don't haul freight in their cab, much less HAZMAT freight in the cab. But cargo vans do. Every load on a cargo van is considered to be in the cab of a truck, regardless of whether the van has a bulkhead.
Because of the importance of knowing the regulations of what can and cannot be hauled in a cargo van, and what is and is not considered HAZMAT, I made a concerted effort to educate myself on the matter. That included reading the rules and regulations, of course, but also included in-depth conversations with a very good friend of mine who is the DOT complainace officer in charge of highway, rail, air and marine transportation at Vanderbilt Chemical (subsidiary of R.T. Vanderbilt) in my home town. His job is to know these rules forwards and backwards. I have benefited greatly from his knowledge.
Copper Sulfate is classified as UN 3077, with the Proper Shipping Name of:
ENVIRONMENTALLY HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES, SOLID, N.O.S.
Other Names: Blue copper, Blue stone, Blue vitriol, Copper (II) sulfate, Copper sulfate, Cupric sulfate, Cupric sulphate, Sulfate de Cuivre
DG/ADR Class: 9
Packing Group: III
Hazchem Code: 2X
Poisons Schedule: S6
N.O.S. is used when the a chemical's name does not specifically appear in the HMT. There are lots of substances like that. Alcohol is one. While ethanol appears in the table and has a proper shipping name of Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol, an alcohol that is not listed specifically in the table will be described as "Alcohol, n.o.s" or "Flammable liquid, n.o.s".
I used copper sulfate because it is an often expedited material used in agriculture as a soil additive, pesticide, feed additive, a germicide, a leather and textile mordant, a pigment in the printing industry, in the manufacture of batteries, in electroplating and electro refining of copper, in the production of certain medicines, as a wood and pulp preservative, in engraving and lithography, in ore, steel and rubber processing, as an asphalt treatment, and in chicken processing plants. It's a chemical that I'm very familiar with. Also because it's a Class 9, which is kind of a catch-all Class that can confuse people.
Turtle:
Can't you put this in terms us Safety geeks can understand?
Can't you put this in terms us Safety geeks can understand?
The confusion arises when a commonly used description such as hazmat [or commercial motor vehicle] is widely used to refer to substances [and cargo vans & trucks] that are, by law, not hazmat [or commercial motor vehicles]. In both cases, the determining factor is weight. Below the threshold, it is not, above the threshold, it is. The only trick is learning the thresholds, which few people do, because it isn't relevant to them, and so the confusion persists.
I think so, but I'm on a load and can't do it until very late tonight or tomorrow.
Monty
Expert Expediter
Bailed cotton is also designated a hazardous material. Under the NOS rules. (Transported on an open vessel, it will absorb water, thereby causing the truck to be overweight, or in some instances of barges, actually sinking them.)
Here is my interpertation of the rules:
ALL hazardous materials transported MUST be properly marked on the BOL and the container, it must always be certified that it was packaged and handled per the regulations concerning that product. It must also be accompanied by a MSDS form, declaring the proceedures for dealing with a product, should it be leaked/spilled from the container.
Logging and placarding have their own set of rules.
Those logging/placarding rules do not apply until the aggerate weight of the shipment exceeds 1000 pounds, (in most cases, some materials are required placarding no matter the amount, such as phosgen gas).
Most carriers, and I think correctly so, will REQUIRE 7 day prior. And the logging requirement will end at midnight on the day the shipment is delivered. If you should get so lucky as to have 2-3 hazardous shipments inside the 8 day window, then accountability gets a bit tricky. Otherwise it is just how many hours you worked the prior 7 days, and so noted on your logging recap, rather than on a graph.
When you lease to a carrier involved in a lot of hazmat material, such as FEDCC or Landstar that deal with this each and everyday, they will have an inhouse team to assure you, (and they), have done this properly for safety of the driver and public, and to also reduce liability in case of an accident involving the transported materials.
Here is my interpertation of the rules:
ALL hazardous materials transported MUST be properly marked on the BOL and the container, it must always be certified that it was packaged and handled per the regulations concerning that product. It must also be accompanied by a MSDS form, declaring the proceedures for dealing with a product, should it be leaked/spilled from the container.
Logging and placarding have their own set of rules.
Those logging/placarding rules do not apply until the aggerate weight of the shipment exceeds 1000 pounds, (in most cases, some materials are required placarding no matter the amount, such as phosgen gas).
Most carriers, and I think correctly so, will REQUIRE 7 day prior. And the logging requirement will end at midnight on the day the shipment is delivered. If you should get so lucky as to have 2-3 hazardous shipments inside the 8 day window, then accountability gets a bit tricky. Otherwise it is just how many hours you worked the prior 7 days, and so noted on your logging recap, rather than on a graph.
When you lease to a carrier involved in a lot of hazmat material, such as FEDCC or Landstar that deal with this each and everyday, they will have an inhouse team to assure you, (and they), have done this properly for safety of the driver and public, and to also reduce liability in case of an accident involving the transported materials.
That is incorrect. Please read on.
That is also incorrect. Please read on.
That is partly correct. Please read on.
That is incorrect. Please read on.
I'm looking at this from the point of view of a driver who hauls HAZMAT. Let's set up a hypothetical load to illustrate my points and let's use the item Turtle mentioned:
Hypothetical Example:
I am dispatched to pick up 1,200 lbs. of UN 3077. At Landstar, the dispatch notes would tell me what I am about to pick up so I would arrive at the shipper expecting to deal with such cargo. The shipper brings it to the truck and, looking at the freight, sure enough, it's UN 3077.
Question 1: Is it HAZMAT and how do I know?
Yes, it is HAZMAT. I know this because that proper shipping name is listed in the Hazardous Materials Table which is in my Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook. Everything on that table is HAZMAT.
It does not matter what quantity is being shipped. It does not matter if placards are required or not. It does not matter what the shipping papers say. If it is listed in the table, it is HAZMAT.
Question 2: Are the shipping papers in order and how do I know?
In this example, let's say they are in order. I know this because I see that the proper shipping name matches the name in the Hazardous Materials Table, and that the technical name required by symbol G in the table is properly printed in the shipping papers, AND that the shipping papers indicate that this material is HAZMAT.
From the Hazardous Materials Compliance Pocketbook: "Hazardous materials are required to be indicated on shipping papers in one of three ways. 1. Listed first before any non-hazardous materials, or, 2. Listed in a color that clearly contrasts with entries for materials that are not subject to the hazardous materials regulations..., or, 3. Listed with an 'X' in a column captioned 'HM.'"
Note that the above applies to HAZMAT of any quantity and to HAZMAT of any kind, whether or not placards are required.
There are more items that makes shipping papers proper but I'll stop here to stay on point.
Question 3: Assuming this load is the only cargo in the truck or van, is the truck or van required to be placarded, and how do I know?
No, the truck is not required to be placarded. I know this by looking once again at the Hazardous Materials Table. For UN 3077, the table column entitled "Placard Advisory" says "Class 9." Class 9 is an optional placard so it is not required.
(For bulk quantities, the rules for bulk identification numbers would apply but that is not the case here.)
(For HAZMAT classes 1-8, placards may be required or may not be. The Hazardous Materials Table will tell you. Whether placards are required or not, and regardless of quantity, the shipping papers MUST indicate that the item is HAZMAT.)
Question 4: Am I required to have a HAZMAT endorsement on my CDL to transport this cargo, and how do I know?
No, on this load, a HAZMAT endorsement is not required. As Turtle correctly states, if the truck is required to be placarded, the endorsement is required. If the truck is not required to be placarded, the endorsement is not required.
I know this because I remember it from my CDL training and because I discussed the above four questions with the Landstar HAZMAT department before writing this post. The woman I spoke to there looked up UN 3077 at my request and we visited about each of these questions.
These are my views, Turtle. They are based on my reading of the HAZMAT regs and on confirmation received from a HAZMAT expert at Landstar.
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Phil, the problem with your hypothetical begins with the last sentence in Question 1, which is reinforced by your misunderstanding of the DOT's definition of HAZMAT.
Class 9 was a bad example on my part to use regarding placarding, as Class 9 materials do not require placarding. I was thinking Table 2, and simply used copper sulfate and Class 9 without thinking. My apologies to all on that one.
I will get into this tomorrow or as soon as I have time. I'm replying on the phone while in a load. Not while driving, however.
But the keys are, a HAZMAT endorsement is required in order to haul HAZMAT. Look up that requirement, without making any assumptions regarding definitions. Then, look up the definition of HAZMAT (hazardous material), noting carefully the precise wording. Look these up in the actual code of federal regulations, as the Compliance Handbook is not designed to replace the actual regulations, and for many things only gives brief details which are not as comprehensive as the regulations themselves.
Class 9 was a bad example on my part to use regarding placarding, as Class 9 materials do not require placarding. I was thinking Table 2, and simply used copper sulfate and Class 9 without thinking. My apologies to all on that one.
I will get into this tomorrow or as soon as I have time. I'm replying on the phone while in a load. Not while driving, however.
But the keys are, a HAZMAT endorsement is required in order to haul HAZMAT. Look up that requirement, without making any assumptions regarding definitions. Then, look up the definition of HAZMAT (hazardous material), noting carefully the precise wording. Look these up in the actual code of federal regulations, as the Compliance Handbook is not designed to replace the actual regulations, and for many things only gives brief details which are not as comprehensive as the regulations themselves.
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You have made your case. I've made mine. Neither of us believes himself to be mistaken. I'm content to stop here and let readers consider our comments and do whatever additional research they may wish to do.
It would take more time than I care to commit to dig through the multiple definitions of HAZMAT in the multiple regs that are published by multiple agencies, and to explain how they apply in various contexts.
Thanks for an interesting and respectful debate that prompted a nice review of the HAZMAT regs.
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