Whirlwind Express

lhannah

Active Expediter
I would agree. The excuse of delayed pay because a broker/shipper doesn't pay for 60/90 days is foolish.
As a fleet owner, this would be the same as stalling the drivers pay 30 days or more because I have a truck repair. If I can't afford to fix my trucks, I shouldn't be in business.
One has to have standards and I see no difference between the two.
I am just surprised that someone is trying to defend this practice.

I am not defending it. It is how we run our business. Although like anything in the world it is open to change.

I made it very clear that I wasn't making excuses. I am not apologizing to anyone for the 30 day wait. No one forced Owners to come work for us.

I was merely stating that the 60/90 for the company to get paid isn't ideal either. But as a company we deal with it and do business with certain companies who pay slower because we feel it helps us in the long run.

What I was apologizing for was if the payments were later through no fault of the driver/owner. I offered to look into any issues anyone has and nothing currently open has been brought up.

This is the last time I will post in this thread (for my own sake) but I am still open to questions through message or email.
 

FlyingVan

Moderator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
Dave,
A man with your experience should not use those words, like gameplayers, etc, when you base your judgments on what someone else has posted. Do you have any personal experience with them?

I do. They had something to offer me that others dis not. They gave me more loads than the other 2 companies combined. They paid me more per mile than the other companies did. Yes, the other companies paid quicker, but I was shorted on miles.

Ww paid me when they said they would, and paid me what they said they would. Cannot ask for anything else really.

Yes, paying quicker than 30 days after they receive the signed BOL would have been nice, but it didn't bother me. Cause after the first 30 days you have a check coming every week, and I had money for a few months of expenses.

Like I said, I had to be off for some time and I am now with a company that doesn't allow you to be signed on with others. But in the future, if I go back to multiple companies, Ww will be the first one that I will give a call. They might not be suited for others, but they were for me.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I was giving my opinion based on ANY carrier engaging in certain practices. I am responding to what others have posted.
I don't have to be with the carrier to make that type of assessment.
 

westmicher

Veteran Expediter
Clearly WW is undercapitalized and is comfortable assigning it's business risks to its drivers. Any driver that agrees to that is, in my humble opinion, going to get worse and worse terms/performance from WW (or any other similarly operating company). That said, WW makes a good point. As long as they can find O/O's that will agree to it, and subsequently take extending terms even further, WW will stay in business and the O/O's that do business will suffer whatever fate they deserve.

However, we will never do business with an undercapitalized broker/carrier and would advise any O/O to avoid such inevitable trouble as well.

WW thinks you should. You decide.
 

FlyingVan

Moderator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
I was giving my opinion based on ANY carrier engaging in certain practices. I am responding to what others have posted.
I don't have to be with the carrier to make that type of assessment.

Dave, you could respond without name calling. Just saying. I expect more from someone of your experience.
 

briggie1

Seasoned Expediter
i almost signed on with ww last year and then i ran into a guy who had just quit runnning for them because he was waiting months to get paid, so i decided its not worth it to have to chase money, so wirlwind if you are still reading these posts you should know bad word of mouth goes alot farther then good word of mouth
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Dave, you could respond without name calling. Just saying. I expect more from someone of your experience.
I have't given my two cents on this, mainly because I wouldn't have been anywhere near as nice and polite and diplomatic as Dave has been. But I gotta ask, what names, exactly, did Dave call someone? Because I've read every post in this thread and I didn't see him call anyone anything.
 

Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
I have't given my two cents on this, mainly because I wouldn't have been anywhere near as nice and polite and diplomatic as Dave has been. But I gotta ask, what names, exactly, did Dave call someone? Because I've read every post in this thread and I didn't see him call anyone anything.

He called them "gameplayers". That is pretty light considering the topic..IMO.

I have no problem with them paying in 30 days, if everyone agrees to it upfront. That's not where the problem is. The problem begins on day 31 when the money isn't in my account as agreed to. It gets a whole lot worse every day afterward, unless there is a valid reason. There are few valid reasons I suppose, but very few and they don't happen every month.

Kinda like the McDonald's here. Seems the lunch hour rush sneaks up on 'em every day.
 

cableguymn

Seasoned Expediter
He called them "gameplayers". That is pretty light considering the topic..IMO.

I have no problem with them paying in 30 days, if everyone agrees to it upfront. That's not where the problem is. The problem begins on day 31 when the money isn't in my account as agreed to. It gets a whole lot worse every day afterward, unless there is a valid reason. There are few valid reasons I suppose, but very few and they don't happen every month.

Kinda like the McDonald's here. Seems the lunch hour rush sneaks up on 'em every day.


agreed. while I would not sign with a company offering pay in 30 days, if your willing to wait/risk it. Go right ahead. However, on day 31+ I'd be hitting them with late fees day 35 I'd stop hauling and day 40 I'd turn it over for collections.

I won't be a carriers bank.


My local fast food joint has the same problem.. "it's noon, why are we so busy?!?!?"
 

Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
agreed. while I would not sign with a company offering pay in 30 days, if your willing to wait/risk it. Go right ahead. However, on day 31+ I'd be hitting them with late fees day 35 I'd stop hauling and day 40 I'd turn it over for collections.

I won't be a carriers bank.


My local fast food joint has the same problem.. "it's noon, why are we so busy?!?!?"

My straight truck was leased to C&M. They hold back 3 weeks. I don't know why...never really cared to know. That's the way they want it so I'm fine with that. BUT... they NEVER, EVER failed to pay me when they were supposed to. That's the difference.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
He called them "gameplayers". That is pretty light considering the topic..IMO.
Well, I dunno. Dave said that he, "wouldn't waste [his] time with a carrier that their apparent focus is on foolish game playing." And he stated, "I have little patience for gameplayers. "Both are pretty broad statements, both valid, directed at no one, and doesn't call anyone a name, except those who do, in fact, play games. Describing what someone does isn't really the same thing as calling them names. I don't get upset when someone calls me a truck driver, or an expediter, for example. Many people play games and are often called "gamers" or "game players" because they, like, you know, play games.

I also see where he noted that, "People always tend to be nice when they are picking your pocket," which is also true, but it's not really calling anyone anything. I suppose one could possibly make the argument that a motor carrier /slash/ broker who uses their contractors to finance interest-free short-term loans of 30, 60 or 90 days is akin to a pickpocket, as it's the same as taking money out of the pockets of their contractors, but it's still quite a stretch to label that as name calling.

Then he notes, "You either pay in a timely manner or you don't. 30 days to pay a contractor is pathetic." Again, not really name calling, but more of an assessment of reality.

He did use the word "foolish", but used it to describe an action rather than to call someone foolish. "The excuse of delayed pay because a broker/shipper doesn't pay for 60/90 days is foolish." I do agree with that, as making excuses for not paying within the contracted time frame is at best shortsighted and foolish, because that kind of thing reflects negatively on the business and the business owners. It shows not only a reckless willingness to break a promise, to breach a contract, but a willingness to pass along an uncompensated burden to the contractor, thereby causing damage they are unwilling to repair.

If the contracted rate is, say, 85% of the line haul, then that's different, as the contractors are paid to share the risk of late paying customers and receivables collections. But if the line haul contract is substantially less than that, then the contractor is paying that additional percentage expressly for the service of not having to factor and collect from the customers.

I have no problem with them paying in 30 days, if everyone agrees to it upfront.
Franky, in this modern age of electronic house bills and the scanning of paperwork, 30 days is ridiculous. It can take a couple of weeks to get everything in and billed out, including the lead time for any freight claims and such, and then get the settlement processed, but 30 days plus 5 is a Commercial Paper Loan, except it's interest free and requires no paperwork. That raises some business and moral ethics concerns. The contractors who agree to it are being taken advantage of, plain and simple. They aren't fools for agreeing to it, but they are ignorant.

That's not where the problem is. The problem begins on day 31 when the money isn't in my account as agreed to. It gets a whole lot worse every day afterward, unless there is a valid reason. There are few valid reasons I suppose, but very few and they don't happen every month.
Well, according to Mr. Hannah, "there are any number of reasons pay may be slightly delayed." It would be interesting to see the list of these reasons, because I can only think of a single reason why pay would be delayed, and it's not a very good one. Everything else is just excuses, or incompetence.

What really crack me up is how we read, "I want to make it clear I am not making excuses," yet everything he posts is about justifications and excuses. The reality is, unless they are paying a contracted rate of about 85%, then a 30 day pay period is quite ridiculous to begin with, and they apparently can't even live up to that. Sheesh.

Kinda like the McDonald's here. Seems the lunch hour rush sneaks up on 'em every day.
An excellent example of incompetent management.
 

Dynamite 1

Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
i have had some experience with billing and brokers and carriers. this is where the problem starts. some just cant or arent motivated enough to pay in a proper amount of time. that however only touches the fringe of what actually is the problem here.

all this discussion is great and keeps this in the public forum eye. which is great. may help someone else from making a fatal business mistake. problems like this are abundant in our profession and it is a travesty that it is allowed to continue. then again, trying to get anyone in authority to help is one also. with that said.

the problem here is pretty cut and dry. ww has a contract that states a certain time frame for pay. if they dont meet that then they are in the wrong no excuses allowed. doest matter if they pay a few on time every time, they are suppose to pay all on time. no favorites allowed [provided paperwork is turned in]. that is their responsibility to their contractors. if they have no more sense of responsibility to the ones that keep them in business then that should speak volumes. ww if you dont get paid that is your problem to correct not the contractors. you should find a way to pay the ones that keep you in business when they are suppose to be paid. it should be quite apparent to you the problem of not being paid can cause. after all you see first hand how it affects your business. so why pass the buck and do this to you contractors.

i am a little more than harsh when it comes to this subject having been a part of a similar situation from both sides. so my question to you is the same one i ask in my situation. do you have the capability to correct this problem or is it going to continue. the answer i received was not at this time but we will work on it, until then we do have money coming in everyday and we will just have to get by. my answer, not good enough. i cannot, with good piece of mind continue to take calls and make excuses for your incompetence in setting up you business. you were told from day one and showed on paper what would happen if you got into a problem of slow pay and that you needed more capital in reserve. i will not lie to the people i convinced to contract here. we will be leaving now and contractors will be told the truth without slandering your company. i will not let you break these people.

so ww, whom ever fields these calls or emails you receive and continues to put of these contractors off with excuse. get a conscious. how does it make you feel when you hang up the phone or hit send, i know i felt awful. whomever is in charge of the cash, find a way to pay every time on time and if you cant stop doing business until you restructure and find enough capital to do so. quit resolving to be part of the problem. you created it you solve it and dont make it a problem for the people who work for you.


MAX, MONICA
 
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x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Kinda reminds me of the time I was looking for someone to take over my Company when I
decided to retire. Had a fella show up in the yard with a shiney fairly new Sprinter whom was gung ho about being a Carrier. At the time the fella was Leased to Landstar and stated that he was not interested in Leasing to the Company he was interested in managing because he needed a "sure thing" while getting his feet wet. Needless to say, the opportunity never came from my direction. The inability to sacrifice some for the good of the whole is not a good thing. A lot of the time it is not the underfunding that is the blockage....it is the inability to "short me" that is the problem for long term viability. Regardless of which way this is swinging.....seems to be not too healthy of an environment.

Me tink this might be the same mold.
 

deadhead

Veteran Expediter
Why wold anybody haul for some rinky dink company that cant pay attention much less pay there bills.They tried to get someone i know to hual for them, some woman from Landstar Express was telling my friend all you have to do is get those white signs and put then over there companies logo and they load them.She told then she was and investor and she haul for them,as long as the company she didnt find out.I think her name was Jackie.If you know something is wrong why do it.You risk your lease for some guy who,thinks he can seat home and make money like the big boys.He can take loads from drivers like me and you... loads we should get offered...he cuts the rates drives down the price so he can seat home and not take the phone calls from poor saps who where sucked in by them,and not pay them.Chet Hanna lives in Cookeville,Tn go make a collection call like they do when they going to repo your truck
 
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westmicher

Veteran Expediter
OK, how about WW puts into their contract that if they are more than 35 days, they pay another 5%, and another 1% for every day later than that? That would be fair to innocent O/O's waiting for honest payment!
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
OK, how about WW puts into their contract that if they are more than 35 days, they pay another 5%, and another 1% for every day later than that? That would be fair to innocent O/O's waiting for honest payment!

I believe that might put them out of business, but certainly a good suggestion.

As to calling select carriers "game players", I believe Turtle articulated my position quite accurately. :)
 

gotta go

Veteran Expediter
OK, how about WW puts into their contract that if they are more than 35 days, they pay another 5%, and another 1% for every day later than that? That would be fair to innocent O/O's waiting for honest payment!
If you have a carrier that fails to hold up their part of the bargain already, why would you think that they would be willing to pay the penalty?
 

DannyD

Veteran Expediter
My experience w/ em was similar. They paid late. Way late. Like 5 or 6 months if I recall it right. They "lost" what I mailed em. So they had no records, or so they said. I had copies & sent em those. Then it was iffy if the copies would be good for proof or not. There were some unsettling times in there.

This may be sort of confusing, so I hope I articulate it right. They owed me $1200 for a run, but at the same time paid me double for a $600 differnt run I had taken. This run wasn't exactly paid in a timely fashion either. On this one- the $600 one, I'll say it's on me though. I had understood the contract as 30 days after delivery. I sent em the invoice maybe a week later. So my fault on that one. Any future runs I wasn't gonna make that mistake though. I think, but am not sure, that it was still 6-8 weeks before getting paid on the $600 run.

As for the $1200 run, at first I had thought they shorted me $600. Then upon closer look, I realized it was a double payment on a run I'd taken. I called her, letting her know that she paid me double on a run.

My thinking was she'd say that she'd mail the difference. Instead she cancels the check (I hadn't cashed it yet). That right there had me scratching my head. If someone calls to say they've been paid twice on something, chances are they're not out to bone ya. So she obviously didn't trust me for whatever reason. She said she'd be sending me my $1200. If I recall it right, she said the reason had something to do w/ record keeping as to why she didn't just have me keep the $600 & send me $600 more.

Yet, on her end, the $1200 owed me wasn't mailed for quite awhile. It already had been a few months.

Also on this run, for a run that's a few years old I remember it fairly well. This is the run where I drove almost straight thru to Texas. There was a mega storm in Chicago down to Tenn maybe?? For a long time I was doing maybe 30MPH on the highway, if that. I got a couple of half hour naps in there, but that's about it. I got reamed on the boards here for doing something so stupid. I think by Greg or someone. And he was exactly right. It was a moron decision on my part.

Anyway, all Ann was concerned about was would it get there on time. Every check in call, it was never anything about was I safe, it was always about if I could just go faster when the weather got better to make up some time. That sorta thing. I barely made it. I totally regret driving like that. I guess it would have been nice if she was as concerned about timely payment as she was about timely delivery. That doesn't seem to be the case w/ her though.

I faxed (or emailed) the paperwork from the consignee. I had called her in there somewhere & she said she didn't get it. So I did it again from the hotel. I remember the girl at the hotel had on a U of Texas shirt. We talked about the Michigan/Texas Rose Bowl game a few years before (the year before UT beat USC) for quite awhile. Ann got that one. Then when it was time to pay, she had no record of me even taking the run.

This is a personal opinion. I feel she's a liar. I hope that doesn't fall into the name calling category. Just when someone lies to ya several times, I think it's fair to think of them as a liar.
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
My experience w/ em was similar. They paid late. Way late. Like 5 or 6 months if I recall it right. They "lost" what I mailed em. So they had no records, or so they said. I had copies & sent em those. Then it was iffy if the copies would be good for proof or not. There were some unsettling times in there.

This may be sort of confusing, so I hope I articulate it right. They owed me $1200 for a run, but at the same time paid me double for a $600 differnt run I had taken. This run wasn't exactly paid in a timely fashion either. On this one- the $600 one, I'll say it's on me though. I had understood the contract as 30 days after delivery. I sent em the invoice maybe a week later. So my fault on that one. Any future runs I wasn't gonna make that mistake though. I think, but am not sure, that it was still 6-8 weeks before getting paid on the $600 run.

As for the $1200 run, at first I had thought they shorted me $600. Then upon closer look, I realized it was a double payment on a run I'd taken. I called her, letting her know that she paid me double on a run.

My thinking was she'd say that she'd mail the difference. Instead she cancels the check (I hadn't cashed it yet). That right there had me scratching my head. If someone calls to say they've been paid twice on something, chances are they're not out to bone ya. So she obviously didn't trust me for whatever reason. She said she'd be sending me my $1200. If I recall it right, she said the reason had something to do w/ record keeping as to why she didn't just have me keep the $600 & send me $600 more.

Yet, on her end, the $1200 owed me wasn't mailed for quite awhile. It already had been a few months.

Also on this run, for a run that's a few years old I remember it fairly well. This is the run where I drove almost straight thru to Texas. There was a mega storm in Chicago down to Tenn maybe?? For a long time I was doing maybe 30MPH on the highway, if that. I got a couple of half hour naps in there, but that's about it. I got reamed on the boards here for doing something so stupid. I think by Greg or someone. And he was exactly right. It was a moron decision on my part.

Anyway, all Ann was concerned about was would it get there on time. Every check in call, it was never anything about was I safe, it was always about if I could just go faster when the weather got better to make up some time. That sorta thing. I barely made it. I totally regret driving like that. I guess it would have been nice if she was as concerned about timely payment as she was about timely delivery. That doesn't seem to be the case w/ her though.

I faxed (or emailed) the paperwork from the consignee. I had called her in there somewhere & she said she didn't get it. So I did it again from the hotel. I remember the girl at the hotel had on a U of Texas shirt. We talked about the Michigan/Texas Rose Bowl game a few years before (the year before UT beat USC) for quite awhile. Ann got that one. Then when it was time to pay, she had no record of me even taking the run.

This is a personal opinion. I feel she's a liar. I hope that doesn't fall into the name calling category. Just when someone lies to ya several times, I think it's fair to think of them as a liar.

You certainly drove Southwest a long ways, past many a good Carrier still looking for that "already roasted goose". Didn't find it there either, eh?? How many Carriers have you been with, anyway??
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Perhaps the OP wouldn't mind if I change spelling for him/her . . . do they pay weakly? Looks like the answer would be yes.

In the interest of full disclosure I was leased on with WW, as truck #002. I hauled their first load and when I delivered on 12/26/08, I was told that I had just completed their last. :(

As I recall, they were convinced,(after a couple weeks in the business) they had bitten off way more than they could chew. Someone musta taken them under their wing for a while.
 
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