We Bail Em' Out....

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
I can't believe anyone would stand up for the UAW today.
I can't belive this thread has lasted this long.. The UAW was created, allegedly, to protect the working masses from the "man". Now the UAW IS the man...does this not speak volumes about what they are truly about? Nuf said....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Thats your opinion, I disagree

Which part?

Cheri,

The entire us vs. them came from the unions, no one else. This was not an issue until there was a need to bring in the european mentality and mindset to the public in the latter part of the 19th century.

Here is my real b*tch about this, you all scream about the American dream, a living wage and so on but you miss the point that the union has actually removed most of the access from our shore to allow us to make decisions what we can or can't do. We are no longer viewed as individuals, contributors to a company but rather labor or professional service people.

What I mean about unions is not affording the protection of the worker (I will discuss that later) but this need to redefine the American Dream to be materialistic to the point of home ownership, two cars and a chicken in every pot. It isn't really that at all, it is the opportunity to actually be employed or to start a business or to fail.

The same goes for two things about the Middle Class, it was redefined just to be labor but it includes professionals too, like white collar. AND the middle class history was shaped to be something that only the UAW created, which is very far from the truth.

A living wage has been twisted around just like college funding has been. Now you can't even work your way through school but have to borrow. Once a living wage meant that it was a single wage earner who brought home more than what was needed to survive but because inflation and because of other factors involved that caused that inflation, the wages needed to be earned by two people in the house and so on. These issues are in part a problem of wages in some sectors of the economy being overinflated and that has caused the inflation - cars are one thing that the consumer pays for these cost increases directly.

Now the funny thing is McDonalds is mentioned and you know because of this entitlement mentality that has been caused by the class warfare crap (you know the "I'm jealous of my neighbor because he has a better FILL IN THE BLANK"), they have some unofficial policies, one is not hiring people between 25 and 62. Why is that? It has nothing to do with wages, some places pay really good but it has to with this idiotic notion that you as an employee will want benefits. Amazing!

Well the union has closed the American dream for most of us. Once upon a time if I was unemployed, I could actually go to a shop and barter for a job. I could ask what they pay and then say "I will work for 3 dollars cheaper per hour". Many call that scab labor, others would say it is unfair practice but it isn't by any means. The problem is not with me but with the company, because if they value their employees, they would tell me to go somewhere else.

The one thing I just don't get is this, if the UAW is there to protect the worker, why do we have OSHA?

I was told an odd thing a while ago, this came from a Chrysler exec - the UAW for years screamed about safety this and safety that but not once threated to strike (in the real sense strike) over one safety issue, why?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"That's a bit too simplistic - it takes more than that, and more than many folks have got to work with."


Only if you chose to make it so. That IS how I have lived my life. It is too easy to say the disabled can't. MOST people who are out of work are not disabled. I am a simple man. I don't listen to the junk, I just do what needs done.

When people accept the responsibility for their own lives, quit blaming others for their problems, get out, bust butt and just do it, they will be fine. It is that easy and that hard. It can and is being done, every day.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Letzrock,
WOW!

Layout, I keep hearing this from my in-laws - he doesn't want to work or he is not looking for a job. I got fed up with them and asked them if they want to see the BS that I go through, which they refused to even get near my truck. I then described what I have to do to make money, and included what happened to me in Memphis and Rockford and they said "I wouldn't put up with that, it's too hard". One of them used to just rag on Wal-mart and how "HE" is paying for their health care through his taxes (IBEW member) but when I told him that if it wasn't for those Wal-mart workers helping me out, I would have been in the hospital with serious frost bite. He has not said a word about Wal-mart since.

I would love to find a regular job that I can work afternoons and even work 6 days a week at straight time but I either have to deal with "what auto company did you say you work for?" or "you're overqualified" crap.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Which part?

Cheri,

The entire us vs. them came from the unions, no one else. This was not an issue until there was a need to bring in the european mentality and mindset to the public in the latter part of the 19th century.

Here is my real b*tch about this, you all scream about the American dream, a living wage and so on but you miss the point that the union has actually removed most of the access from our shore to allow us to make decisions what we can or can't do. We are no longer viewed as individuals, contributors to a company but rather labor or professional service people.

What I mean about unions is not affording the protection of the worker (I will discuss that later) but this need to redefine the American Dream to be materialistic to the point of home ownership, two cars and a chicken in every pot. It isn't really that at all, it is the opportunity to actually be employed or to start a business or to fail.

The same goes for two things about the Middle Class, it was redefined just to be labor but it includes professionals too, like white collar. AND the middle class history was shaped to be something that only the UAW created, which is very far from the truth.

A living wage has been twisted around just like college funding has been. Now you can't even work your way through school but have to borrow. Once a living wage meant that it was a single wage earner who brought home more than what was needed to survive but because inflation and because of other factors involved that caused that inflation, the wages needed to be earned by two people in the house and so on. These issues are in part a problem of wages in some sectors of the economy being overinflated and that has caused the inflation - cars are one thing that the consumer pays for these cost increases directly.

Now the funny thing is McDonalds is mentioned and you know because of this entitlement mentality that has been caused by the class warfare crap (you know the "I'm jealous of my neighbor because he has a better FILL IN THE BLANK"), they have some unofficial policies, one is not hiring people between 25 and 62. Why is that? It has nothing to do with wages, some places pay really good but it has to with this idiotic notion that you as an employee will want benefits. Amazing!

Well the union has closed the American dream for most of us. Once upon a time if I was unemployed, I could actually go to a shop and barter for a job. I could ask what they pay and then say "I will work for 3 dollars cheaper per hour". Many call that scab labor, others would say it is unfair practice but it isn't by any means. The problem is not with me but with the company, because if they value their employees, they would tell me to go somewhere else.

The one thing I just don't get is this, if the UAW is there to protect the worker, why do we have OSHA?

I was told an odd thing a while ago, this came from a Chrysler exec - the UAW for years screamed about safety this and safety that but not once threated to strike (in the real sense strike) over one safety issue, why?

I disagree with about 2/3rds of everything you say
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Which part?

Cheri,

The entire us vs. them came from the unions, no one else. This was not an issue until there was a need to bring in the european mentality and mindset to the public in the latter part of the 19th century.

Here is my real b*tch about this, you all scream about the American dream, a living wage and so on but you miss the point that the union has actually removed most of the access from our shore to allow us to make decisions what we can or can't do. We are no longer viewed as individuals, contributors to a company but rather labor or professional service people.

What I mean about unions is not affording the protection of the worker (I will discuss that later) but this need to redefine the American Dream to be materialistic to the point of home ownership, two cars and a chicken in every pot. It isn't really that at all, it is the opportunity to actually be employed or to start a business or to fail.

The same goes for two things about the Middle Class, it was redefined just to be labor but it includes professionals too, like white collar. AND the middle class history was shaped to be something that only the UAW created, which is very far from the truth.

A living wage has been twisted around just like college funding has been. Now you can't even work your way through school but have to borrow. Once a living wage meant that it was a single wage earner who brought home more than what was needed to survive but because inflation and because of other factors involved that caused that inflation, the wages needed to be earned by two people in the house and so on. These issues are in part a problem of wages in some sectors of the economy being overinflated and that has caused the inflation - cars are one thing that the consumer pays for these cost increases directly.

Now the funny thing is McDonalds is mentioned and you know because of this entitlement mentality that has been caused by the class warfare crap (you know the "I'm jealous of my neighbor because he has a better FILL IN THE BLANK"), they have some unofficial policies, one is not hiring people between 25 and 62. Why is that? It has nothing to do with wages, some places pay really good but it has to with this idiotic notion that you as an employee will want benefits. Amazing!

Well the union has closed the American dream for most of us. Once upon a time if I was unemployed, I could actually go to a shop and barter for a job. I could ask what they pay and then say "I will work for 3 dollars cheaper per hour". Many call that scab labor, others would say it is unfair practice but it isn't by any means. The problem is not with me but with the company, because if they value their employees, they would tell me to go somewhere else.

The one thing I just don't get is this, if the UAW is there to protect the worker, why do we have OSHA?

I was told an odd thing a while ago, this came from a Chrysler exec - the UAW for years screamed about safety this and safety that but not once threated to strike (in the real sense strike) over one safety issue, why?

The us vs them didnt just come from the UAW, TAKES 2 TO PLAY THAT GAME, osha is a gov entity, they chage the rules every time we get a different party in the white house. And again you must talk to the biggest jerks in a union. For one thing any strike called during the coarse of a contract can only be called on health and safelty issues, not over wages, not over benes, health and safety only , Our local went on strike over these issues twice, it mostly happens at the local levels.

And whether you want to give the UAW credit or not for helping to raise pay not only for the union workers but for non union to, they did ,many tool shops raised there pay so to keep up with what we earned, not saying they made the same wage just that there pay would increase also.

The UAW never had enough members to be able to close the american dream, thats hog wash
 
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Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
I can't believe anyone would stand up for the UAW today.
I can't belive this thread has lasted this long.. The UAW was created, allegedly, to protect the working masses from the "man". Now the UAW IS the man...does this not speak volumes about what they are truly about? Nuf said....

How is the UAW (the man )? I dont stand up for everything the UAW does, but i do defend the union against false statements. Most people who critize the union have never belonged much less spent much time working in an auto plant, but yet you all know so much about it. You tend to listen what the news says or bloggers or others that just have a different agenda.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Letzrock,
WOW!

Layout, I keep hearing this from my in-laws - he doesn't want to work or he is not looking for a job. I got fed up with them and asked them if they want to see the BS that I go through, which they refused to even get near my truck. I then described what I have to do to make money, and included what happened to me in Memphis and Rockford and they said "I wouldn't put up with that, it's too hard". One of them used to just rag on Wal-mart and how "HE" is paying for their health care through his taxes (IBEW member) but when I told him that if it wasn't for those Wal-mart workers helping me out, I would have been in the hospital with serious frost bite. He has not said a word about Wal-mart since.

I would love to find a regular job that I can work afternoons and even work 6 days a week at straight time but I either have to deal with "what auto company did you say you work for?" or "you're overqualified" crap.

I hear the same stuff. I have been over qualified far too many times. Too old. Twice I was refused work because I was a vet. (many years ago) Now I am under educated. Forget 48 years in the work force, all kinds of experinece. I need a degree in basket weaving. In the mean time we drive, earn, support ourselves, buy our own insurance and plan for the next career if needed. I don't want to work for anyone else again. I will decide for my self if I am qualified. I am. I can do what ever I set my mind too that the heck with the rest of those turkeys.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
I hear the same stuff. I have been over qualified far too many times. Too old. Twice I was refused work because I was a vet. (many years ago) Now I am under educated. Forget 48 years in the work force, all kinds of experinece. I need a degree in basket weaving. In the mean time we drive, earn, support ourselves, buy our own insurance and plan for the next career if needed. I don't want to work for anyone else again. I will decide for my self if I am qualified. I am. I can do what ever I set my mind too that the heck with the rest of those turkeys.

Now cheers for that!!!! Im with you all the way
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
How is the UAW (the man )? I dont stand up for everything the UAW does, but i do defend the union against false statements. Most people who critize the union have never belonged much less spent much time working in an auto plant, but yet you all know so much about it. You tend to listen what the news says or bloggers or others that just have a different agenda.


How is the UAW the man? Are you serious? They now own 39% of General Motors! You once paid them to insulate you and negotiate with the behemoth for you!! Now they are part of the machine!! They jumped the fence and are now your adversary! You got hustled!...we all got hustled!! GM should have been liquidated!! I still believe they will be. Too bad all that tax money was squandered. IMHO this is the largest injustice ever perpetrated on the American Tax Payer.
 
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letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
Which plant did you work at? I see you from around Jamestown, OH...was it the one out on West Broad?? GONE! Norwood? GONE! Dayton? almost GONE!
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Just food for thought....

National Institute for Labor Relations Research
5211 Port Royal Road, Suite 510 i Springfield, VA 22151 i Phone: (703) 321-9606 i Fax: (703) 321-7342 i [email protected] i National Institute for Labor Relations Research | a non-profit research facility analyzing and exposing the inequities of compulsory unionism

March 9, 2010
Forced-Unionism Expansion Would Hurt Young Employees the Most | National Institute for Labor Relations Research


Forced-Unionism Expansion Would Hurt Young Employees the Most

Low Union-Monopoly States Furnish ‘Safety Valve’ For Americans Aged 25-34 Who Can’t Find Decent Job Opportunities in High Union-Monopoly States, Census Bureau Data Show

The newly published 2010 edition of the U.S. Census Bureau’s Statistical Abstract of the United States shows that, in 2008, there were 40.932 million U.S. residents aged 25-34 living in one of the 50
states or Washington, D.C. That represents a 5.6% increase over the total 25-34 year-old population in 1998. In absolute terms, the U.S. population in this age bracket increased by 2.158 million over the past decade.

The overall U.S. population from 1998 to 2008 increased by 12.5%, well over double the growth rate for the young-adult population. The relatively slow growth in the number of 25-34 year-olds is widely recognized as a significant impediment to economic growth because of the group’s high participation in the labor force. Among males aged 25-34, 92.2% had jobs or were seeking them in 2007, compared to just 73.2% of all males16 and over. Among females in the 25-34 age bracket, 74.5% were labor-force participants, compared to 59.3% of all women 16 and over.

Public Policy, Not Geography,
Is the Most Significant Factor
Behind Labor-Force Shift


The relatively slow growth in the number of young adults nationwide is the sum of widely disparate trends among the 50 states. Thirteen states in the eastern half of the U.S. (Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Vermont) all endured declines of more than 5.0% in their 25-34 year-old population between 1998 and 2008, compared to the national increase of 5.6%.

Meanwhile, four states in the U.S.’s western half (Arizona, Idaho, Nevada and Utah) experienced 25-34 year-old population gains of more than 40%. Overall, the 13 states constituting (according to the Census Bureau delineation) the West experienced five times as great a gain in their young-adult population as did the rest of the U.S.

However, it would be way off the mark to describe the reallocation of America’s young employees over the past decade merely as a shift to the West.

California, with a total population of roughly 37 million, greater than the combined populations of the 12 other Western states, experienced a mere 1.0% gain in its 25-34 year-old population over the past decade, 4.6 percentage points below the national average. In fact, out-migration of young native born adults from California accounts in significant part for the rapid growth in the young-adult populations of many other Western states.

Meanwhile, six states located in America’s central and eastern regions (Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Oklahoma, South Dakota and Texas) experienced young-adult population gains of more than 10.0%, far above the national average.

To help identify factors influencing the reallocation of young adults other than the general shift to the 13 western states, it is useful to separate these states and the 37 others into two separate groups. Among the 37 states outside the U.S. west, as we have already noted, 13 suffered a decline of more than 5.0% in their 25-34 year old population from 1998 to 2008, whereas six states experienced
gains of more than 10.0%.

Though they are located variously in the New England, Middle Atlantic, South Atlantic, and East North Central regions of the U.S., all 13 states enduring the worst losses all have one important public policy in common: Not one has a Right to Work law that prohibits making forced union dues or fees a condition of employment. In contrast, all six of the states outside the West with young-adult population gains of more than 10.0% are Right to Work states.

Twenty-two states currently have Right to Work laws on the books.3 Unless a state has a Right to Work law, federal law authorizes the imposition of forced union dues and fees on its private-sector employees.

In the 17 non-Western Right to Work states, the aggregate 25-34 year-old population increased from 12.965 million to 14.602 million, or 12.7%, over the past decade. Meanwhile, in the 20 non-Western forced-unionism states, the aggregate 25-34 year-old population fell from 16.807 million to 16.036 million, or 4.6%. Western Right to Work states’ total young-adult population grew by 47.0%, compared to Western non-Right to Work states’ 8.3% increase. Even excluding slow-growth California, Western forced-unionism states’ increase was barely more than half that of Western Right to Work states.

Prevalence of Union Monopoly
Bargaining Also Negatively Correlated
With Young-Adult Population Growth


On average, a far smaller share of private-sector employees in the 22 Right to Work states are subject to “exclusive” union representation than is the case in the 28 forced-unionism states. Under “exclusive” union representation, which may accurately, if provocatively, be labeled as union monopoly bargaining, all the employees in a government delineated “bargaining unit” must allow the agents of a single union to negotiate with their employer on their behalf in matters concerning pay, benefits, and working conditions.

The 1935 National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) and the 1934 Railway Labor Act (RLA) amendments mandate monopoly bargaining whenever federal authorities determine that a majority of the employees who have expressed opinions want a union. Workers who never supported the union, or cease to support it, and are not union members, nevertheless must accept the union as their monopoly bargaining agent, just as if they were union members.

Even viewed independently from Right to Work status, the prevalence of union monopoly bargaining in a state is negatively correlated with young-adult population growth. This is true with
regard to public-sector monopoly bargaining as well as private-sector monopoly bargaining. However, this fact sheet focuses on private-sector monopoly bargaining due to its topicality.

Legislation introduced last year by Big Labor U.S. Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Congressman George Miller (D-Calif.), and now pending on Capitol Hill, is designed to help union bosses sharply increase the share of all front-line private-sector workers nationwide who are under union monopoly bargaining. Cynically mislabeled as the “Employee Free Choice Act,” the Harkin-Miller legislation (S. 560/H.R. 1409) would promote expanded monopoly bargaining through several means, most notably by effectively ending secret-ballot elections in union organizing campaigns.

Thanks primarily to intense public opposition mobilized by the National Right to Work Committee and other organizations, S. 560/H.R. 1409 is now not expected to be adopted by Congress in its current form. However, it is quite likely that Congress will vote this year on alternative “Plan B” legislation designed to accomplish the same objective by somewhat different means, including tampering with workplace election rules.

Special targets of legislation such as S. 560/H.R. 1409 are the states with the lowest shares of private-sector employees under union monopoly control. The bottom-line impact would be to strip young adults across the nation of valuable job and other economic opportunities.

In states that had private-sector unionization of less than 6.5% in 1998 (Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Vermont and Virginia), the total number of 25-34 year-olds in 2008 was 12.304 million, an increase of 17.8% over these states’ aggregate population in that age bracket a decade earlier. Over the same 10-year period, the 25-34 year-old population increased by just 3.7% in states with 1998 private-sector unionization of 6.5% to 11.0%, and decreased by 1.1% in states with 1998 private sector unionization of more than 11.0%.

Among the 22 Right to Work states alone, the young-adult population increased by 18.7% in the 11 states (Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah and Virginia) with 1998 private-sector unionization of less than 6.5%, more than double the 9.2% increase experienced by the 11 Right to Work states (Alabama, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Wyoming) with 1998 unionization of 6.5% or more.

Were It Not For ‘Safety-Valve’
States, National Unemployment
Would Be Even Worse


A quick examination of relevant Census data shows that low-monopoly-bargaining density states’ outsized growth in their young-adult population was overwhelmingly the result of migration from other states, and not other factors such as disparate 1974-83 birth rates.

For example, in 1974, 1978 and 1982 combined, just 24.4% of all births nationwide occurred in states with the private-sector unionization of less than 6.5% in 1998.4 But by 2008, 30.1% of all 25-34 year-olds lived in these states.

Up to now, low monopoly-bargaining-density states like Texas, Georgia, and North Carolina have furnished a “safety valve” for Big Labor strongholds like New York, New Jersey, Michigan and
California.


Young adults who can’t find decent job opportunities in heavily unionized states simply pick up and leave for states like Texas, Georgia, and North Carolina, where they routinely fare far better.
As bad as unemployment is today in union-label New York, New Jersey, Michigan and California, it would be far worse were it not for the “safety-valve” states. But if Tom Harkin, George Miller, and other Big Labor politicians in Congress have their way, there will no longer be any pockets of long-term job growth in America. Under such circumstances, it won’t be long until the nextnationwide economic downturn.

In retrospect, the 2008-2009 recession may then seem like a walk in the park.
 
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Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
How is the UAW the man? Are you serious? They now own 39% of General Motors! You once paid them to insulate you and negotiate with the behemoth for you!! Now they are part of the machine!! They jumped the fence and are now your adversary! You got hustled!...we all got hustled!! GM should have been liquidated!! I still believe they will be. Too bad all that tax money was squandered. IMHO this is the largest injustice ever perpetrated on the American Tax Payer.

Again, false statements, The UAW does not own 39% of GM, the health care trust fund for retirees owns 17% which is not run by the UAW, And as with others on here im glad its just your opinion, because that really doesnt count for much.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Which plant did you work at? I see you from around Jamestown, OH...was it the one out on West Broad?? GONE! Norwood? GONE! Dayton? almost GONE!

There has many plant closings, and ur point behind this? im sure it is the UAW's fault, certainly not the trade policy's this country has, such as giving tax breaks to corporations for moving jobs overseas. or the cheap labor that no one can compete with like in china or taiwan.
 

bugsysiegel

Expert Expediter
Too bad we can't get FOX to follow their own employees around and film every aspect of their lives. I'm sure nobody there ever does anything wrong....
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
There has many plant closings, and ur point behind this? im sure it is the UAW's fault, certainly not the trade policy's this country has, such as giving tax breaks to corporations for moving jobs overseas. or the cheap labor that no one can compete with like in china or taiwan.


Oilerman, I want to know this,

How do you know they get tax breaks?

Our tax code, which is actually controlled by congress which is a democratic congress by the way means that they are allowed to write off the cost of off shore use of labor or purchasing products made by another company (regardless where they are) as part of them doing business. This includes the companies setup in the enterprise zones along the Mexican Border, or the products shipped in from Canada, all foreign labor.

IF you want to complain, then complain what was done in Bankruptcy court by this administration, it really affects you and the way things are done from that point on.

If you want to complain, then complain about NAFTA and Clinton, how he helped the very dems who were on the surface fighting against it while behind everyone's back helping it get passed.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Letsrock,
It is 17.5%, the 39% was assumed to be the final number but a lot of complaining went on with then unsecured debt holders and Canada (another one who should not have gotten any share of the new company).

Oiler thinks the UAW does not have control of the trust fund but it does.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Letsrock,
It is 17.5%, the 39% was assumed to be the final number but a lot of complaining went on with then unsecured debt holders and Canada (another one who should not have gotten any share of the new company).

Oiler thinks the UAW does not have control of the trust fund but it does.

I think Canada got a share because if the Canadian division did not make it..they'd have their share of the Canadian bailout funds covered....
 
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