Pilgrim buddy, it was a really nice try .....
truly a valiant effort .... I gotta give ya credit for trying .... but I'm afraid you're coming up way, way short ....
Because you attempt to
selectively address what was said as though it were merely a battle of numbers with respect to
certain, specific types of acts (largely along a suicide bombers vs abortion clinic bombings vs beheadings vs shooting in gay bars sorta line), you
absolutely and utterly fail to address the following in the larger context, which goes to exactly what motivates these people (meaning the current crop of terrorists) - while also completely failing to understand what motivates us - to wit:
"causing the Christian religion to become an imperialistic war-mongering religion, whose adherents have believed that they were instructed by God to invade the homelands of non-Christian peoples, take possession of their lands and resources, annihilate many of the indigenous inhabitants as well as subjugate and exploit the remaining innocent indigenous peoples."
The reason why you didn't bother to address the above substantively, is because you really can't - at least from any type of
moral high ground - therefore you must avoid it.
Oh, if pressed, you will attempt to
justify it, on the basis of the "terrorists" being really "bad", "horrible", "evil" ...... and all other manner of highly pejorative adjectives - largely because of the
strategy, tactics, and methods that they use - while purposely ignoring the fact that they are at a
distinct disadvantage in terms of the resources available to them - all the while failing to consider the magnitude of both the
economic and
military weapons deployed against them - as well as also either ignoring, or (worse yet) attempting to justify, the actions of our nation and military, and the deaths that we cause .....
ahem ....
as a supposedly "Christian" nation ..... my, my ... how terribly convenient .....
You seem to feel that
similar acts, when done by, or in the name of,
a state (ours, most particularly) are somehow
inherently different ....... more
righteous, more
virtuous ..... indeed, may I say ....
more holy ? ...... than when small groups of non-state actors (who interestingly happen to be a different religion than yourself) commit them.
I can assure you, that by and large, the tactics, strategy, and ultimate final product (
death and destruction) are largely the same for both groups ..... however, the ultimate
order of magnitude is far, far different ..... a fact that I'm fairly sure that you really incapable of taking an honest look at .......
You feel that our delivery of
death and destruction is good, wholesome, righteous and
inherently moral - while theirs is fundamentally, at it's core, bad, uncivilized, immoral, and, of course,
inherently evil ...
Your premise is largely based on a
"we-are-right-they-are-wrong" computation ... while such mental admonitions to oneself are, for the moment, quite personally reassuring I'm sure, they in no way allow one to escape the ultimate reckoning that comes from from making them .....
Personally, I say:
both are wrong ......
The fact that there is a huge difference in the degree of wacko makes all the difference in the world.
Not really ..... all you have to do to understand how true that
isn't, is talk to someone whose friend or family member was murdered by someone who was "less whacko" .....
In either case,
such victims are always still quite dead .....
The percentage of muslims that ascribe to radicalism and jihadism is far greater than the percentage of wacko militant Christianity; their raw numbers are also greater.
Hmmmm ..... what do you base that on ?
Gotta a link ?
The problem with such a claim is that you assume (wrongly of course) - likely defining the term in your own mind - that
"wacko militant Christianity" means a small number of single individuals, primarily operating alone, in violation of the law, in isolated incidents ... outside of the mainstream .....
I think the point that was being made (above, by Turtle) has a far, far wider application and context than you would, no doubt, prefer to confine it to .....
One might say, that thru the heady wine of
militarism and
nationalism, we ....
as a largely Christian nation and culture have - certainly in the last 50 years - been seduced and subscribed wholesale to
radicalism and
jihadism ..... against all advices by the Founders to the contrary ....
Do we not engage in (supposedly) defensive military conflicts all over the globe against those we perceive to be military threats, or who threaten our "interests" ?
Have not other
"Christian nations" done similar within the last 200 years ?
So .... you miss the point entirely ....
Also, Evangelicals can not be compared to jihadists - simply not apples and oranges there.
Well, you're only 50% correct there - yes, they are not apples and oranges - they are both (often)
nuts ......
(
imagine you got a little excited right up there - as evidenced by the inadvertent second inclusion of the word "not") ......
And yes, some evangelicals (at least the radicalized, whacked out ones) certainly can be
easily compared - it was just done earlier in this thread.
I can certainly understand your
disagreement with doing so, and your
vehement protests over it -
particularly if you are, yourself, an evangelical ..... but also as well, even if you are only part of the broader portion of the Christian religion.
And your own personal taste for
war,
militarism,
strident nationalism, and
foreign adventurism are a fairly well-recorded matter on these forums .... so I guess it's no surprise really ....
How one squares those positions with the Christian faith has always escaped me personally ...... it is certainly not my understanding of it .... but then many seem to ascribe to a similar view ......
mass delusion perhaps ..... ?
This is an absurd comparison, based on a false premise - that of equating evangelicals with jihadists or islamofascists.
I'm sure that the above
is always true when considered from the perspective of an evangelical (with Jesus as my co-pilot ....), mostly true from the perspective of a non-evangelical Christian (if there is such a thing), maybe somewhat true from the perspective of some Muslims .....
and absolutely never true from the perspective of what you are calling jihadists or islamofascists ....
Further I think that someone who is an honest broker (doesn't have a dog in the fight - ie. of neither religion) would probably not find the comparison entirely absurd at all .....
The sheer numbers make the point
Indeed they do ......
as we will see very shortly ....
On the other hand, the number of deaths attributed to acts of violence (not necessarily bombings) against abortion clinics from 1997 to 2009 total THREE (3). The acts of violence (not necessarily bombings) against abortion clinics in the last several years were: 2009 - one; '08 - none; '07 - two; '06 - none; '05 - two; '04 - two; the trend is obvious and the stats are here:
.... the trend is possibly what it is because the greater Christian community has had their attention turned to a new boogeyman .....
As to stats, I'll have some additional stats for ya here in a few moments after we deal with this abortion thing .....
BTW,what do you think has been the percentage change in coverage of abortion vs the "War on Terror" on Christian media since 9/11 ?
Also if you would have bothered to click on the link the NAF page you cited that was marked (complete) "Violence Statistics" you could have found out the following:
"According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers."
and
"According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs")."
Of course, that wouldn't fit with
the agenda of minimizing things ....
BTW, if ever ya want a little more insight on the anti-abortion movement we could sit and talk sometime ....
while we listen to my autographed CD that Randall Terry personally gave me of his music ....
In 2008 alone there were 658 suicide bombings around the world - most in Afghanistan and Iraq ...... The bombings have spread to dozens of countries on five continents, killed more than 21,350 people and injured about 50,000 since 1983 ....
Ok .... I'll accept that as true and accurate .... tell ya what ..... why don't you add up all the "terrorist" attacks and consequent deaths (by radical jihadist/islamofacist only, if that's what really frys your bacon) .... that have occurred over the last ..... oh, I dunno, say .... 50 years ?
And then you tell me how that stacks up against the following:
All the non-US deaths (civilian and combatants) in the Vietnam war and,
All the non-US deaths in First Gulf War and,
All the non-US deaths that have resulted as a consequence of the current military engagements in both Iraq and Afghanistan ....
and then toss the following little tidbits in for good measure:
"The ICRC estimates that in Laos alone, 9 to 27 million unexploded submunitions remain, and some 11,000 people have been killed or injured, more than 30 percent of them children." [The above remaining munitions are still killing at the rate of 300 deaths per year]
"An estimate based on US military databases states that 9,500 sorties in Cambodia delivered up to 87,000 air-dropped cluster munitions." [amount of current ongoing deaths not researched and unknown by me at the moment]
and
"During the Gulf War, the US and its allies (France, Saudi Arabia, UK) drop 61,000 cluster bombs containing some 20 million submunitions. The number of cluster munitions delivered by surface-launched artillery and rocket systems during the Gulf War is not known, but an estimated 30 million or more DPICM submunitions were used in the conflict."
Gee ....
a whole 658 suicide bombings and a whole 21,350 killed since '83 .... really ? That many ?
Geez ... I mean the US Armed Forces are estimated to have killed
91,500 South Vietnamese civilians alone in the Vietnam War - and that's not counting combat deaths ....
And another
52,000 to 70,000 North Vietnamese civilian deaths as a result of the bombing campaigns in the North .....
FWIW, the total Vietnam War-related deaths included
3 to 4 million Vietnamese from both sides,
1.5 to 2 million Laotians and Cambodians .... versus only
58,159 U.S. soldiers.
And you wanna talk about
21,350 as a number ....
really .... ?
One could make the case that someone who would knowingly and intentionally forfeit their own life (by being a suicide bomber) in furtherance of what they see as
a war of aggression by a foreign power, has just a bit more cahones ....
than some guy, who from the relative safety of 50,000 feet, squeezed a button, pulled a trigger .... (and one could also easily make the case that both are
equally insane)
One could also make the case that one is a morally superior position - fighting against
foreign domination, in defense of one's home land - when compared to the military of a
foreign nation who has invaded another country -
particularly when the country being invaded didn't attack the country doing the invading .....
One could also - quite easily - make the case of who really poses
the greater actual threat to peace and security on this planet .....
simply by examining recorded history .... and keeping in mind who has access to the greatest quantities of the most deadly weapons
Please keep in mind that I didn't intend the little listing above to be
all-compassing and
all-inclusive of all
murder,
mayhem,
death, and
destruction that the United States,
as a "Christian" nation, has wrought throughout it's entire history ....
nor did I address the similar actions on the part of other "Christian" nations .....
The idea that the threat of radical islamic jihadism can be compared to that of Christian religious wackos (who may or may not be evangelicals) is laughable.
.....
only to those who utterly incapable of taking an honest and unflinching look at the
actual record ......
by virtue of being Christian religious, or some other form of wacko, themselves ....
Fortunately, the Christians and Jews who have been attacked repeatedly by suicide bombers at funerals, crowded markets, etc. have not responded in kind with equal numbers of retaliatory suicide bombings against muslim targets such as mosques at prayer time.
Yeah .... you just keep suckin' on that
moral inequivalency kool-aid thru the straw of self-righteous Christian indignation .... all while keeping your head buried in the sand (or some other equally dark, but perhaps somewhat moister, place):
"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.
Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.
The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.
Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.
In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.
A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death.
Full article, as reported in Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper:
IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon
