US Army disinvites Franklin Graham

[aristotle]

We need to stop bowing to the Muslim muckrakers every time one of them cries, "Foul!" It's this kind of submissiveness that eventually leads to subjugation. Moreover, it's difficult to apply logic to faith-based arguments. It becomes an exercise in futility.

When crunch time comes to our shores, it will be "all hands on deck." There will be no middle ground where happy talk about moral equivalency has a stake. We won't have the luxury of free and open debate once Islam puts down serious roots in this country. Better to have those discussions now.

 

[Turtle]

We need to stop bowing to the Muslim muckrakers every time one of them cries, "Foul!" It's this kind of submissiveness that eventually leads to subjugation.

Why not? We cry "Foul!" every time a Muslim fails to bow to us. They don't want to be subjugated any more than we do.

Moreover, it's difficult to apply logic to faith-based arguments. It becomes an exercise in futility.

Which is pretty funny, since most of the arguments against Islam are faith-based arguments. Hey, I know, let's kill 'em all and let God or Allah or Whomever sort them out!

When crunch time comes to our shores, it will be "all hands on deck." There will be no middle ground where happy talk about moral equivalency has a stake. We won't have the luxury of free and open debate once Islam puts down serious roots in this country. Better to have those discussions now.

It could happen, certainly, but I don't think it will, not here. This may be one of the few places where Islam, especially fundamentalist Islam, cannot make significant roots. Case in point, Muslim Central USA, Dearborn, MI, no more hookah cafés beginning on May 1. They can and will insert some of their beliefs and customs into ours, that's what America is all about, but I don't think Islam can conquer here. Hеll, they can't even conquer a snot-nosed sand dune like Israel.

They're pіssed at South Park, tho. They got Comedy Central shakin' in their boots.

 

[aristotle]

I believe Israel is exceedingly nervous these days about the intentions of Iran and Iran's feverish attempt to acquire nuclear capabilities. I would submit that Israel exists only at the pleasure of American guarantees to her security. It is only a matter of time until Israel's neighbors have nukes. Then what?

The United States has a two-pronged problem: (1) we are in a death spiral of appeasement with Islam and (2) we are in deep denial about our Christian heritage.

When we lose sense of who we are as a people, what remains to hold us together? It won't be flowery language about tolerance that carries the day.

 

[jaminjim]

They're pіssed at South Park, tho. They got Comedy Central shakin' in their boots.

I heard that ABC news reported that the Muslims didn't like it. But instead of showing anything about that they showed the Virgin Mary smeared with fecal matter. Good thing us Christians aren't as easily offended.

 

[LDB]

None of the current crop of animated prime time shows are worth feces. The last prime time cartoon that was remotely entertaining without being garbage was The Flintstones. It wasn't anything great but at least it was fit for anyone to watch and didn't push the limits of impropriety at every opportunity.

 

[Pilgrim]

Using that logic, if his name was SpongeBob SquarePants then Bugs Bunny would be out of favor.
He's no more of a Muslim than he is a Christian, and you know it.

After further consideration, I'm going to amend my previous posts: the point about the name was that it's a muslim name, and he's the first American president to have one. Our current president was elected at a time when islam and Christianity are at odds with each other, as has usually been the case to some degree throughout history.

Regarding my statement declaring Obama the first muslim president; I guess what I was trying to say was that we might think of Barack Hussein Obama in the same context as Bill Clinton being declared the first black president by author Toni Morrison. Besides his obvious sympathies, he actually has the muslim blood in his veins as opposed to Clinton who was only born into modest means, tried to play the saxophone and had an acute problem with his zipper.

Clinton as the First Black President

 

[Pilgrim]

Are you really saying, in effect, that if the protest had come from the public, or from military or elected officials, that you wouldn't have a problem with it? It's a trick question, be careful.

I'm willing to bet that before this story broke you had never even heard of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, because if you had, you would not call them a liberal organization. They, and their founder, are far from liberal. All they do is fight religious coercion and discrimination in the military. They were founded because of excessive and sometimes brutal discrimination, harassment and aggressive proselytizing by Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians within the military, sometimes by superior officers.

The organization was founded by Michael Weinstein, a 1977 United States Air Force Academy graduate who then went on to be an Air Force JAG for 10 years. He then spent 3 years in the West Wing of the Reagan White House as legal council, and was the Committee Management Officer of the Iran-Contra Investigation in his capacity as Assistant General Council of the White House Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President. He later served as General Counsel to Ross Perot and Perot Systems Corporation.

The Foundation's stance on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," for example, is one where they are dead set against repealing it, because the policy is both Biblically sound and Constitutionally correct. If the policy is repealed then the government is meddling in religion, in effect establishing a new one by actually redefining Biblical terminology, and is therefore unconstitutional. Those liberal baѕtards!

No one, until now, has ever accused Michael Weinstein of being a liberal. And the only people who could conceivably call the Military Religious Freedom Foundation liberal are the most extreme of fundamentalist evangelicals, A.K.A., Pilgrims.

Many people think the Pilgrims and others came to these shores because the Church of England were too strict, to conservative and were looking for religious freedom. Newp. They were looking for religious freedom alright, but came here because they felt the Church of England was far too lenient.

Further enlightenment about Michael Weinstein:


"Mikey Weinstein, who has been invited to speak on military bases to our cadets and paid with our tax-dollars, has made inflammatory statements of his own against evangelical Christians. Following are just a few:

• "The biggest crime I accuse the religious right of and it's a blood libel, a crime against humanity is torturing that concept, by bludgeoning it and assaulting it, so that what it comes out as "tolerance for diversity' equals "intolerance for us in the majority.' My response is: F*** you. F*** you. How dare you?"
• “Our Pentagon has been turned into a Pentacostalgon, and our department of defense has been turned into an imperious, vicioustic, contagion of unconstitutional triumphalism by people that want to kill us, or have their version of Jesus kill us, if we don’t accept their Biblical worldview.”
• “Either you stay quiet and let the evangelical chaplains shape a generation of the most powerful instrument of death the world has ever known into an army for Jesus, or you speak up. I couldn’t stay quiet”… today we face a new danger; the rise of the “fundamentalist Christian, parachurch, military corporate proselytizing complex.”
• “We are facing a national security threat in this country that is every bit as significant in magnitude, width and breadth internally as that presented externally by the now-resurgent Taliban and al-Qaeda. … I’m here to report to you today that that wall is nothing but smoke and debris. We are facing an absolute fundamentalist Christianisation – a Talibanisation – of the US Marine Corps, Army, Navy, and Air Force.”
• “It’s a fundamentalist Christian-Constitution fight,” Weinstein said in an interview. “This represents a perfect, quintessential example of the fact that our United States military has become infused, essentially, with the Christian mirror image of the type of Islam that is pushed by al-Qaida and the Taliban.”

Talk about misrepresentation. The quotes above say a lot about Mikey Weinstein, the man whose organization complained about comments made by Franklin Graham.
Contrarily, Franklin Graham's views are not hateful nor profanity-laced, and they are based on observations of true events. The Pentagon itself had suffered a blow at the hands of a muslim terrorist who hijacked a plane, and such violence could happen again. If Graham voices how our country has endured the pain of death upon innocent citizens due to a core Islam belief in Jihad, that is within his rights of freedom."

Military Religious Freedom Foundation complains about Franklin Graham

 

[aristotle]

FoxNews.com is reporting President Obama visited with the Rev Billy Graham on Sunday at Graham's home in Norh Carolina. No way this is a coincidence or a preplanned visit, regardless of what the Obama propaganda ministers say.

Obama's advisors must know they really stepped in it this time by orchestrating the snub of Rev Graham's son, Franklin. I suspect Obama made this visit to manipulate the old man into some kind of public statement that all is well between the two of them. Rev Graham is in seriously declining health, it would be unpardonable to exploit a ninety year old man for political gain.

Not knowing Rev Graham's mental acuity, we will see how this story is spun over the next few days. Billy Graham is first among equals in America's evangelical aristocracy. Even at this late point in life, just one unflattering statement from Rev Graham could devastate Obama's political fortunes. And Obama knows it. Thus, the trip.

The hubris of Barack Obama is stunning. If there is justice, Franklin still has his father's ear... and the old man still has a clear mind not to be impressed by Obama's sudden charm offensive. This story isn't over. You just don't slap Billy Graham or the Graham family.

 

[RLENT]

Hey Pilgrim,

Thanks for posting Michael Weinstein's actual words (from a PR perspective it's always a great day when you can get the opposition to carry your message ) - too bad you didn't bother to quote them in enough context so that it was clear what he meant and what he was referring to though. As an example:

"People say this is a Christian country founded on Christian principles," he says. "The real essential aspect of this country, woven into the tapestry of the embroidery of how beautiful this country is, is one concept above all others, which is tolerance of diversity.

"The biggest crime I accuse the religious right of and it's a blood libel, a crime against humanity, is torturing that concept, by bludgeoning it and assaulting it, so that what it comes out as "tolerance for diversity' equals "intolerance for us in the majority."

My response is: F*** you. F*** you. How dare you?"

The second part (which you quoted) is meaningless without the first part which provides the context of exactly what he is referring to ....

And BTW, his sentiments as expressed above pretty much work for me ..... including the language. And if you think that use of such language (which are merely words) is truly "profane", as opposed to the utter profanity of war (particularly when conducted by a religious zealot), then you truly have no real understanding of the profane .....

Too bad you didn't bother to quote anything else from the remainder of the article by Cara DeGette - but of course, that doesn't fit with the specific agenda you're trying to push (it's all good ... just as long as we're doin' it in Jesus' name)

So lemme see if I can fill the void:

"Every single time radicalized Christianity has engaged the machinery of the state and the armed forces, we have ended up not with puddles and little streams, but with oceans and oceans of blood," he says. "I'm not just talking about the Holocaust or the Inquisition or the four Crusades, I'm not just talking about the Black Plague; it's the transition from Plan A to Plan B.

"In Plan A, evangelical Christians with a smile on their face will ask you to please, please, please accept their biblical worldview of Jesus. The problem with that is, inevitably, Plan A morphs into Plan B. They stop asking so nicely, and then you have the Holocaust, the pogroms, the Inquisition ..."

"I'm the field general leading this thing right now. I get demonized by the religious right and I get canonized by the liberals, and I don't deserve either. I'm just a piece of flotsam on the ocean. But I'm telling you, this country is going through right now a transition from A to B."

and

.... As an added bonus, he would be able to visit [his son] Curtis, who had just completed combat survival training [at the USAF Academy]

"Curtis just has this tremendous joie de vivre, and the moment he walked in, I knew something was wrong," Weinstein says. His son wanted to talk, but not on base. All the way to the McDonald's beyond the South Gate entrance of the academy, Weinstein says he was freaking out, wondering what trouble his son had gotten himself into. Finally inside the restaurant, Curtis coughed it up.

"He said, "Dad, it's not what I've done, it's what I'm gonna do, and I'm probably going to get into a lot of trouble. I'm going to beat the **** out of the next person who calls me a "****ing Jew" or accuses me or our people of killing Jesus.'"

He asked his older son, who had just graduated from the academy, about his experience. "Casey said, "Dad, this is just the way it is. Senior cadets would sit down and say, "How do you feel about the fact that your family is going to burn in hell?"

A June 2004 report conducted by a team from Yale Divinity School observed, among other things, that during basic training, Maj. Warren Watties called on about 600 cadets to proselytize their bunkmates and warn them they would burn in the fires of hell if they weren't born again. [mission creep]

A 2004 survey indicated that half the cadets at the academy reported hearing religious slurs on campus.

One documented "joke" went like this: "Why do Jews make the best magicians? Because they can go into a building and vanish in a puff of smoke." [apparent reference to being fragged by one's own comrades-in-arms] Jewish cadets complained about being called "Christ-killers" and being told that the Holocaust was revenge for the death of Jesus.

Cadets who declined to attend a Christian worship service reported being marched back to their dorms by upperclassmen in an exercise they called "Heathen Flight".

Last July 12, Weinstein picked up his New York Times and read a story about the increasingly religious climate in the Air Force. He choked on this quote, from Brig. Gen. Cecil R. Richardson: "We won't proselytize, but we reserve the right to evangelize the unchurched."

[sounds like more "mission creep" to me .... ]

"The fact he would make that statement on the front page of the most visible newspaper in the world, when we're fighting a war against an enemy that already sees us, sees America, as invading Christian imperialist crusaders!" Weinstein marvels. "How do you think that plays with [Iraqis and other Muslims] when they can say, "Hey, this is the Air Force policy'?

The above is so unbelievably retarded that it utterly boggles the mind ..... old Cecil ought to be court-martialed for sheer military stupidity (in strategy and tactics) if for no other reason ....

BTW Pilgrim, if this is really a road you wanna go down, you just let me know there sport - I got plenty of ammo on the subject (some of it actual audio and video of retarded, religious fanatic whackjobs of the Christian variety, in the military, saying just some of the wildest things )

It is not likely to be an argument you will prevail on.

Entire article by Carla DeGete linked below:

Mikey's Mission

Time for a housecleaning I say ....

 

[aristotle]

RLENT... just a quick question: has it occurred to you that this rabblerouser Weinstein makes stuff up to whine about? His rants remind me of a spoiled brat teenager who hates his parents. I suspect Weinstein's real hangup is the fact that America is a predominantly Christian nation. A lot of self-loathing sufferers of arrested development hate their parents and their country. Sounds like Weinstein's son is another Major Hasan just waiting to happen. A psychiatric eval would be in order for Weinstein and his children. No doubt, their military careers will be truncated. Weinstein isn't the first to make a horse's behind of himself. His histrionics will pass just like those who came before him.

 

[aristotle]

Darn the luck... this exchange has been fun, RLENT. I just got a cross-country load. Don't hitch your wagon to Mr Weinstein's star, he plays in the mud. Classic behavior for America's Fifth Column. Another thing, I don't underestimate Weinstein's ability to stage events. It's a common ploy for his ilk. A motley crew of third-rate nonentities... racial/religious agitators cut from the same cloth as Al Sharpton.

 

[RLENT]

RLENT... just a quick question: has it occurred to you that this rabblerouser Weinstein makes stuff up to whine about?

Has it occurred to you that what he is saying might actually have some validity or merit, and that he is not in fact, a rabblerouser, but a patriotic American who is deeply concerned about the radicalization of our country's military along religious lines ?

FWIW, I have had some not insignificant experience with those in the Evangelical Christian movement - names you would undoubtedly recognize - given what I know based on that experience, I'm more inclined to believe Mr. Weinstein, than I am not.

His rants remind me of a spoiled brat teenager who hates his parents. I suspect Weinstein's real hangup is the fact that America is a predominantly Christian nation. A lot of self-loathing sufferers of arrested development hate their parents and their country.

Aristotle, I have to say I would have expected something a little more intellectually honest from you ...... but I guess when one is a "member of the faith" and feels as though the "faith" is under attack, then anything goes ....

Hmmmmmm .... now who does that remind me of ..... ?

I have had the opportunity to watch Michael Weinstein talk on TV on several different occasions, and in at least one instance for an extended length of time (C-SPAN), and seen him field extended question and answer periods .......

During those occasions I saw nothing that reminded me of "a spoiled brat teenager who hates his parents" (a rather odd metaphor indeed .....) ..... in fact, I saw an individual who appeared to be concerned about upholding the Constitution and the potential radicalization of the military by religious zealots ....

Sounds like Weinstein's son is another Major Hasan just waiting to happen.

Nice .... really pulling out all the stops are we ?

You choose to completely ignore what his kid was apparently subjected to, and instead try to blame the victim .... and cast aspersions on the kid as though he were the villian .... (for some future act that he might commit no less)

Frickin' awesome dood !!!! ..... but I would hafta say that's pretty much a morally-bankrupt position ....

A psychiatric eval would be in order for Weinstein and his children. No doubt, their military careers will be truncated.

No, but a psychiatric eval - and a General Discharge - is probably in order for the religious whackjobs who were taunting his kid .... as well, as anyone above them in the chain of command, who either sanctioned, or were aware of what was going on ..... and then failed to immediately take effective action to reign in obviously out-of-control individuals .....

Weinstein isn't the first to make a horse's behind of himself. His histrionics will pass just like those who came before him.

Sorry, but that ain't likely to happen - and here's why:

If this kinda crap is indeed occurring (and I have very little doubt that it is) there will be those that blow the whistle to MRFF and others ..... it's gonna come out ..... count on it.

 

[RLENT]

It ain't Letterman but .....

Top Ten Ways to Convince the Muslims We're On a Crusade

.... has it occurred to you that this rabblerouser Weinstein makes stuff up to whine about?

Ahhh, yeah aristotle ...... after ya get done with that long trip, how's about you take just a little peek at what is documented at the link above ..... and then explain to me and everyone else here how it "was made up" ......

You can't make up that kind of stupidity ......

Something stinks ..... and I think it is those (in the military) that are claiming to be "the aroma of Jesus" .....

 

[Turtle]

I posted my little blurb about Michael Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation in the hopes that those who were clearly unfamiliar with both would go do a little research, and see just what all is happening and what all is at stake, and to see how there is no difference whatsoever in the realities and tactics of radical fundamentalist Islamic Muslims and of radical fundamentalist evangelical Christians.

Instead, we get people who try to dismiss and even marginalize Weinstein by using out of context quotes for the propaganda of misdirection and denial, under the outrageous and intellectually insulting premise of "further enlightenment", which presents twisted lies as enlightened knowledge. And we have people trying to marginalize and discredit Weinstein as nothing more than a rabble-rousing whiny little crybaby.

The one statement that really gets me is, "Sounds like Weinstein's son is another Major Hasan just waiting to happen."

That statement is a little scary, for several reasons. One, it's one that reeks of ignorance and stupidity because it molds an horrific event into something more palatable for a specific agenda. It's a statement that is clearly intended not to make Hasan out to be a victim, yet it does, which I find funny more than scary. It's a statement that completely dismisses or ignores the realities of the excessive and brutal discrimination, harassment, and aggressive proselytizing by Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians within the military to those who are not evangelical Christians. Yes, Weinstein's son may very well end up being harassed, discriminated, abused and proselytized to the breaking point, just like Major Malik Nadal Hasan was (as admitted by officers and enlisted men alike). The scary part is that you are thinking and acting exactly like those you are so eager to demonize. Hrmph, he ain't Christian, to Hell with him.

You can be utterly stupid in these matters if you like, but I have an uncle who is a retired colonel in the Army who has spoken of these things, the atrocities that go on within the military to our own people by our own people, in the name of Christ, and he as a very Christian Southern Baptist is appalled and sickened by it. I have a cousin which I speak to often, who was recently promoted to a Lt Colonel, who talked about friendly fire incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan where, in the name of Christ, fellow Marines and Army soldiers where left to die, put unnecessarily in danger, or were killed outright by their fellow soldiers because they weren't Christian, or even worse, because they were Christian but not quite Christian enough. Those who are not evangelical Christians tend to be "on point" a lot, or in the lead vehicles where IEDs are likely to be found, or get volunteered for sniper bait.

Make no mistake about it, that US Constitution that you hold so dear is being torn to shreds within the military, one of the prime institutions that is supposed to uphold and protect it. There is a concerted effort, backed by and often spearheaded by military officers, to establish a religion within the US military. I promise you, the purpose of the US military is not the spread the word of Jesus Christ, to the world nor to those in the military.

 

[witness23]

I believe in my God and me..it's between me and Him only...
I've fired the middleman..

Good quote OVM. I'm not sure if you believe in Jesus(like you said that is between you and him) as your saviour but that is precisely why he died on the cross so that you can have a personal relationship with God. You have a direct line to God and he is there if you need him.

 

[RLENT]

Military and Christ in the same sentence? What? We are killing in the name of God now?

Clearly some apparently think we are - these folks have absolutely no business in the military - if they are incapable of differentiating between the secular role of the military and the mission they are on, and their faith.

They are at least as whacked out as Maj. Hassan (the Fort Hood shooter) ....

In fact, one might wonder whether some of the types of idiocy being discussed in this thread might have played a role in setting him off ..... (those with the intelligence level of moron generally have a huge problem with correlating between cause and effect)

Check this out - you literally can't make up anything as utterly stupid as what is contained in the following video:

Jesus Rifles

 

[RLENT]

Don't hitch your wagon to Mr Weinstein's star, he plays in the mud.

aristotle,

If you really knew me, you would know I have absolutely no problem whatsoever going wherever is required to take the fight to the enemy .....

If the opposition is residing in the mud, under some slime-covered rock of the perversion of our armed forces and dismantling of the Constitution, then that's where I'll be headed .... to expose it ....

Classic behavior for America's Fifth Column.

I submit to you sir, that those he is opposing are the real Fifth Column .... and that they would throw our country, our laws, and the very Constitution itself under the bus in a heartbeat ..... because they believe they answer to a higher call, a higher purpose, and a higher power ....

Another thing, I don't underestimate Weinstein's ability to stage events.

I'm sure that it's quite conveinent to cast aspersions and make charges using generalized statements and innuendo - without having to bother with actually coming up with any real evidence or proof of what you are talking about ...

You might wish to consider how doing so reflects on your own credibility ... of course, within the halls of the (so-called) "faithful" I'm sure you would be considered to be a "spiritual warrior" of the highest order, a true defender of the faith ....

At any rate, be sure to give us a shout whenever you actually have some real evidence for the charges you so glibly cast about ....

It's a common ploy for his ilk. A motley crew of third-rate nonentities... racial/religious agitators cut from the same cloth as Al Sharpton.

Hmmmm .... malcontents then ?

You're starting to sound a little like someone else around these parts ....

Sorry - but I don't see it ... on the otherhand, what I do see is some actual documented evidence for exactly what he is talking about ....

But then I'm actually looking .... to see what's really there .... as opposed to letting my own faith cloud my vision, and substituting my preconceived notions for actual observation ....

 

[jaminjim]

Just a note from a Army dude. During the eight years in the service, I was never given any grief in regards to religion nor did I ever witness it. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it did not happen in my neck of the woods.

Oh I forgot, give me a link to the Weinstein's son's problem.

 

[RLENT]

Just a note from a Army dude. During the eight years in the service, I was never given any grief in regards to religion nor did I ever witness it. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it did not happen in my neck of the woods.

Understand - that's actually very refreshing to hear - BTW, how long ago was that ?

(From what I've what I've been able to gather this is a relatively recent phenomena - say within the last 15 or 20 years.)

Oh I forgot, give me a link to the Weinstein's son's problem.

Some of the details of the issues his son faced were covered in the article I linked earlier (and quoted heavily) by Carla DeGete, entitled:

Mikey's Mission

It was also mentioned in passing in an interview in "The Battle of the Bilge" section (which is a very interesting read for a lot of reasons, including the barrage of death threats Weinstein claims to be receiving) on the Military Officers of America Association (MOAA) entitled:

Mikey vs. Goliath

You can read the full articles by clicking the above links.

 

[jaminjim]

BTW, how long ago was that ?

Mmm, cough a 3 cough cough sneeze hack 30 years ago is when I ETSed (Estimated Time of Separation)

(From what I've what I've been able to gather this is a relatively recent phenomena - say within the last 15 or 20 years.)

That could explain it.

Some of the details of the issues his son faced were covered in the article I linked earlier (and quoted heavily) by Carla DeGete, entitled:

Mikey's Mission

It was also mentioned in passing in an interview in "The Battle of the Bilge" section (which is a very interesting read for a lot of reasons, including the barrage of death threats Weinstein claims to be receiving) on the Military Officers of America Association (MOAA) entitled:

Mikey vs. Goliath

You can read the full articles by clicking the above links.

Thank-you