Could you explain how Greg's views are against his own best interests?
This is scary
- Thread starter greg334
- Start date
Could you explain how Greg's views are against his own best interests?
MrGautama
Not a Member
That one really made me laugh, It was the same argument I had when I was young, ignorant, and... right winger; there I said it: I am a recovering conservative!!. Until one day I 'really' grew up and realized that is immoral to protect the privilege of a few at the expense of the suffering and deprivation of the majority of the population. Don't take me wrong, I don't want the government making my shoes or telling me what kind of work I can do, but the private sector is even more inept in some areas than the government will ever be; point in case the health system, we pay more than any country in the world for our health, and what we get?, the last W.H.O. ranking puts us number 33, behind all industrialized nations and many third world countries!, are you proud of that?. The private sector is notorious for its inability to protect the weak in our community so the government should step in with real social programs to help the least fortunate, the mentally ill, the ones unable to pay for education, etc.
The other day while in Canada I saw someone with a cardboard sign at an intersection, I was unable to read what it said but I assumed she was a homeless person; not a minute had passed when I realized that after traveling for years in and out of Canada this was the first time I saw a homeless person there. On the other hand just in my one-streetlight-town there are always homeless folks at the entrance ramp to the interstate. Just makes me wonder who's system works better.
MrGautama
Not a Member
Isn't it self evident that being working class and pro-elite at the same time is a deep contradiction?
MrGautama
Not a Member
I don't see Greg as being pro-elite. But, speaking for myself, my working class status goes very well with conservative views. I'm very proud that I provided for my family. Why would a worker bee like me need the government? I don't think I've worked for many "elite" people. The 2 months I worked at the Ford Wixom plant in '73 would probably be about it. Are the Fords elite? I can't recall ever working for a poor person.
You seem to be in favor of wealth redistribution. If the government gets to aggressive in confiscating wealth, what will happen to the incentive to take the risk to create jobs?
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
What exactly do you think Obama is? Working class? HA! No... he's an elitist. Anyone who doesn't believe that is fooling themselves.
You were once a conservative? Hard to believe that one could actually gain compassion while losing common sense; but I guess it happened to Newt Gingrich, so anything is possible.
You mentioned we spend the most in the world for healthcare, yet are 33rd on the WHO's list? List of what? "Healthcare the WHO likes cause it's socialistic"? Did that list take into consideration that we have the best percentage for cancer survival of many types, because we tend to spot it earlier? Make us a socialized medicine country and we lose that. Higher costs also provide for the innovations in medicine that the WORLD uses. Tell me what breakthroughs Britain has come up with... or France, Canada, Europe in general.
Since you're on a trip about what we pay the most for, let's talk education. We pay the most, yet our system is ranked 18th in the world. How do you like that? What does that make you want to do? If you want to throw more money at the problem, and hope that works, yep... you're a liberal. If you want to figure out where the problems are, possibly cut the frivilous spending, and allow failing schools to actually totally fail, and replace them with a better system, then you're conservative.
On to homeless. My wife is from Canada. Her parents live in London. Her father oversees the soup/meal kitchen at his church, and I've worked at it a few times. Yes... there are plenty of homeless in Canada. Check out Toronto, where there are no shortages in windshield cleaners. Yes, we're going to have more homeless than Canada, because we have 10 times the population.
What the bleeding hearts either don't care about, or understand, is that by sucking the blood out of the rich, we take away their investments toward the middle class. It is the rich who hire us to move their freight... not the poor. Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but there will ALWAYS be poor. The fewer rich you have, the more poor there will be.
To answer your question I quoted... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're intermingling elite with rich. If that's the case... Why, being working class, would it be contradictory being pro-rich? Well... it wouldn't. The more rich there are, the stronger our economy is, the more freight I get. Not to mention, my wife and I are WORKING towards being rich ourselves! Do you consider ourselves to be sellouts to the working class? The poor? On the contrary, we plan on giving extensively to charities. As far as the working class, I plan on hiring, depending on how well my business succeeds. Unfortunately, with the way DC is handling this soon-to-be-depression, I doubt it'll get that far in the next 5 yrs. So, we'll see.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
Bravo, Star and Turtle! Let's see if MrG will respond to facts and common sense opinion. Turtle... as you and I can attest, just because the problem with Canada's homeless may not necessarily be visible from the on-ramp, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; OR that their system of dealing with the homeless is better or worse than ours.
People with "touchy-feely" tend to want to treat the visible symptoms, so they can feel good about doing something; rather than treating the causes, and the facts be shown that the cause of the ills is in the policies their heroes in DC have advocated for generations.
MrGautama
Not a Member
MrGautama
Not a Member
Didn't I just said I saw a homeless in Canada?, but to all purposes it was my first. Unless they are all hiding when I drive by...
MrGautama
Not a Member
Holly cow, you are really scared Obama might get it right!!, I'm sorry I rocked your boat T but it's hard for me to resist, it's kind of a twisted perversion of mine to dig in to the minds of the fundies. Probably is something like intellectual peeping to try to understand why otherwise decent and good people can be so narrow minded and easily influenced.
Yeah, I just figured I'd point out one simple fact in hopes that MrG could take a look at it, and, hopefully, see that if he can be so wrong about something so easily checked out and verifiable, that it might, maybe, cast some doubts on some of his other emotionally fortified views that he hasn't bothered to actually check out, either.
Like the political underpinnings of the W.H.O. and how many of their reports are highly skewed in favor of a United Nations agenda, which often includes not making the US look too good. And like back before there were government social programs for the "weak", back when communities and churches took care of their own communities, the percentage of homeless was far, far lower than it is now, and that both historically and currently, the more money you throw at the homeless and the "weak", the more homeless and "weak" we have. The system breeds weakness.
It's like going to a National Park and feeding the bears. Pretty soon, the bears think your food is their food. They come to expect it, depend on it. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Give him another one the next day, and the next, and the next, and it won't take long for him to expect it, to depend on it. And he tells 10 friends, and they tell 10 friends, and there ya go. But these are things that have to actually be looked at objectively, not emotionally, to understand them. Many of these "feel good" social programs feel good when you do them, but end up making the problem worse in the long run, and then when it's worse, the "feel good" thing to do is to throw more money at the problem, which again makes it worse, not better.
Life is full of "unfortunate". Always has been, always will be. That's why it's called life. And no amount of money thrown at the problem will change that.
I hope Obama gets it right. Whatever we've been doing for the last several years hasn't been working, that's for sure. Then again, the track that Obama is now currently on is one that has been traveled before, and it didn't work, either. So maybe he's got something all new and better in mind. I sure hope so, but based on what I've seen so far, I have my doubts.
Yeah, you did, but you also said it like it wasn't nearly as big of a problem up there because of their system. They're all over your one streetlight town, but not as much in plain sight up in Canada. Either you're saying that Canada's system is better because they hide their homeless better than we do, or that Canada doesn't have the homeless problem than we do. You'd be wrong in either case.
Or, I may have gotten it all wrong, and all you're really saying is that, at least when in Canada, you aren't very observant.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
You'll have to look in the mirror for that one. You fell for the rock star's glitter, not me.
And if that's all you got from that looooong drawn out post of mine, then... well, let's just say I hear ACORN calling... better get it. It may be your chance to shine! Hope n change n yes we can!!!
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MrGautama
Not a Member
C'mon guys, don't get all bent out of shape. I know I won't convert anyone in this reservoir of fundamentalists, just stopping by for some comedy and to observe an endangered species just before extinction. Freight is so slow that I have to find entertainment in the most unexpected places, anyhow I think I'll go do something more productive; but don't worry... I'll be back when bored and in need of some good laughs. Good night everyone.
letzrockexpress
Veteran Expediter
Random Musings On These Subjects:
1) I think Mr. "G" is just yanking chains. If not, it is a super coincidence that he just happens to be touching on the issues that bring the Obama haters out in droves.
2) Nothing is going to "work" to fix what is wrong with America. A little nudge here, a little pull here. That's the way it is. that's the way it always is. That's the way it always will be, It just depends on which way it's being nudged or pulled. Conviction and Character starts at home.
3) We will not be seeing socialized medicine in the USA in our lifetime. THe AMA is never going to let that happen. They have lots and lots of money. They are the #1 lobby in Washington. Forget about it.
4) By and large poor people are poor because of poor choices. Chemical dependency, illiteracy laziness, irresponsibly having multiple kids, lack of education, and on and on. Probably 80% of the time they bring it on themselves. Why should we help these people?
5)Homeless people. See #4. A lot of homeless people are homeless by choice. Mental illness, drugs and drinking can play a part. Some need our help, but not many.
1) I think Mr. "G" is just yanking chains. If not, it is a super coincidence that he just happens to be touching on the issues that bring the Obama haters out in droves.
2) Nothing is going to "work" to fix what is wrong with America. A little nudge here, a little pull here. That's the way it is. that's the way it always is. That's the way it always will be, It just depends on which way it's being nudged or pulled. Conviction and Character starts at home.
3) We will not be seeing socialized medicine in the USA in our lifetime. THe AMA is never going to let that happen. They have lots and lots of money. They are the #1 lobby in Washington. Forget about it.
4) By and large poor people are poor because of poor choices. Chemical dependency, illiteracy laziness, irresponsibly having multiple kids, lack of education, and on and on. Probably 80% of the time they bring it on themselves. Why should we help these people?
5)Homeless people. See #4. A lot of homeless people are homeless by choice. Mental illness, drugs and drinking can play a part. Some need our help, but not many.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
Ok... who are you, and what did you do with Rock? Ahh... I get it. You're yanking our chain too!
4) By and large poor people are poor because of poor choices. Chemical dependency, illiteracy laziness, irresponsibly having multiple kids, lack of education, and on and on. Probably 80% of the time they bring it on themselves. Why should we help these people?
I agree with everything but the last sentence. We should help them to have the OPPORTUNITY to become what they want to become. I don't mean give them Happiness, only the Pursuit of Happiness. IOW, give them the power to empower themselves by opening up the better schools to those who want to send their kids.
It's taken generations to get the dependent poor where they are; and it'll likewise take generations to get them off of being dependent. Teaching them how is the first step.
4) By and large poor people are poor because of poor choices. Chemical dependency, illiteracy laziness, irresponsibly having multiple kids, lack of education, and on and on. Probably 80% of the time they bring it on themselves. Why should we help these people?
I agree with everything but the last sentence. We should help them to have the OPPORTUNITY to become what they want to become. I don't mean give them Happiness, only the Pursuit of Happiness. IOW, give them the power to empower themselves by opening up the better schools to those who want to send their kids.
It's taken generations to get the dependent poor where they are; and it'll likewise take generations to get them off of being dependent. Teaching them how is the first step.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I was going to write a larger post but after a hard day dealing with in-laws, I have to point out that there is a problem when people quote propaganda.
Oh yea got to throw up the WHO which the last ranking put the US at 35, not 33 and because the WHO hasn’t ranked countries by an aggregate of all the indicators for a while, that number is invalid anyway because it is 9 years old.
My source is the WHO by the way. They said back in 2000 that there is really no way to measure the effectiveness of a given country because of the complexity of each health care system and the complexity in the differences between the countries. If you don’t believe me, go ask them yourself.
In addition, the government did step in with real social programs; sometime in 1964 there was an “unconditional war on poverty” started. (It is like the war on terror but then people didn't hate the president for trying). It was in many many ways a failure, but one aspect it delivered the expected results - we do not have poor people in this country. It absolutely succeeded in lifting people from being poor to being middle class by rest of the world’s definition while at the same time ensuring that we don't have real hunger or real health care issues among the 'poor'. We succeeded in making our poor a “rich poor” and only poor people from other countries, like Mexico only dream about being poor in our country or die trying to get here.
Oh yea got to throw up the WHO which the last ranking put the US at 35, not 33 and because the WHO hasn’t ranked countries by an aggregate of all the indicators for a while, that number is invalid anyway because it is 9 years old.
My source is the WHO by the way. They said back in 2000 that there is really no way to measure the effectiveness of a given country because of the complexity of each health care system and the complexity in the differences between the countries. If you don’t believe me, go ask them yourself.
In addition, the government did step in with real social programs; sometime in 1964 there was an “unconditional war on poverty” started. (It is like the war on terror but then people didn't hate the president for trying). It was in many many ways a failure, but one aspect it delivered the expected results - we do not have poor people in this country. It absolutely succeeded in lifting people from being poor to being middle class by rest of the world’s definition while at the same time ensuring that we don't have real hunger or real health care issues among the 'poor'. We succeeded in making our poor a “rich poor” and only poor people from other countries, like Mexico only dream about being poor in our country or die trying to get here.
You don't really believe that right?, or do you???
Yes, I do. That's why I said it. Duh... Instead of responding with a rhetorical question that you think makes me look silly, (you seem to be doing a lot of that sort of thing), tell me why I shouldn't believe it.