Third Party????

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
In retrospect... Do you really think that things would be that much different if we elected McCain instead of Obama?

As I said before.... I don't waste my vote!

McCain was a terrible candidate but he is no Obama. Voting for a third party in a presidential race is a wasted vote. It might be a feel good vote but that does not keep it from being wasted the same as a vote for someone like Ron Paul would be a wasted vote.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
McCain is a Facist just like Bush... Just a different shade of lipstick!

Really??? I don't see either one of them in the description below...

Actually, the first part sounds more like Obama's beliefs.

fas·cism   [fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
It's a hoot to see quasi-conservatives flounder around wishing social conservatives would just go away. Real conservatism stands on two legs: economic conservatism and social conservatism. One who embraces only economic conservatism but eschews the social issues is actually a libertarian. Nothing wrong with being libertarian. Yet, for the sake of clarity, social conservatives are the bedrock of the conservative movement. Social issues define a culture. If a nation cannot rally around a shared set of commonly held social values, such as traditional marriage, then the claim to nationhood is tenuous at best.

Commonly held mores and social values are the glue which holds a nation together. The quickest and surest way to kill a nation is for citizens to disregard bedrock principles. Those who wish the United States resembled Denmark should stop calling themselves conservative. Social libertines will never find a home in the conservative movement. Social issues trump all other considerations. Beware any who pretend otherwise.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Or maybe my description of him fits better......

Marx·ism   [mahrk-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
the system of economic and political thought developed by Karl Marx, along with Friedrich Engels, especially the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society.
 

garyatk

Seasoned Expediter
If your objective in voting is to stop the progressive slide to the left, then voting for either Bush, or McCain were wasted votes...

Deny it all you want, but it is the truth...
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I know that McCain is no conservative, but he's no marxist either. Some things would have been similar but to say they are one and the same is naive on the knowledge of who and what Obama really is.

A RINO is a RINO is a RINO. Obama was preaching healthcare. And instead of preaching the unconstitutionality of it, McCain comes up with his own unconstitutional plan.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Today's giant sucking sound is that made by people believing a third party is a viable alternative. The only third party that would help conservative minded voters would be one started by the extreme left pulling votes from dem candidates.

As long as you keep playing that game, that's how long it will stay that way.
 

Camper

Not a Member
The only third party that would help conservative minded voters would be one started by the extreme left pulling votes from dem candidates.

We have one...It's called the Green Party which essentially gave us GW Bush in 2000...In retrospect, he was just as far to the left as Gore would have been, fiscally-speaking.


Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

Camper

Not a Member
If your objective in voting is to stop the progressive slide to the left, then voting for either Bush, or McCain were wasted votes...

Deny it all you want, but it is the truth...

The bottom line is we continue to allow ourselves to be pigeon holed between the two false choices( D or R). As long as we continue to do so, the election of a true fiscal conservative will continue to be nothing more than one grand illusion.



Posted with my Droid EO Forum App
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yet, for the sake of clarity, social conservatives are the bedrock of the conservative movement. Social issues define a culture. If a nation cannot rally around a shared set of commonly held social values, such as traditional marriage, then the claim to nationhood is tenuous at best.

THAT thinking is the entire problem we have with both parties and especially the conservative movement itself.

Our social fabric is not easily defined and our core values have not changed but how we define them has. The country social cores are not based on any defined principles like marriage but only freedoms and that is the only way we need to look at them. By defining what our social values are without considering that we are not a monolithic society chips away at the foundation of our entire country and the forcing of values to make one uniformed rule or law that applies to everyone makes the conservative movement as a whole the same as the liberal movement.

I would think that social conservatives would have learned a lesson by being defeated many many times and having new blood injected into the dying body of the movement via libertarian principles, they would have a new perspective on how to fight for their core issues they feel are important, which some are trivial at this moment. BUT alas, they haven't learned a thing and won't because their focus is skewed to making sure that their values are forced to be the nation's values which is not right to begin with nor will work.

No matter how you look at it, and as trivial as some of these issues are, the main issues that many who claim to be conservatives are not the main issues that the country is concerned about - the economy and jobs - because if the foundation of the conservative movement is and always will be the social segment, the people in the movement as a whole will always have to pandered to those who call themselves social conservatives and ignore real issues.

Commonly held mores and social values are the glue which holds a nation together. The quickest and surest way to kill a nation is for citizens to disregard bedrock principles. Those who wish the United States resembled Denmark should stop calling themselves conservative. Social libertines will never find a home in the conservative movement. Social issues trump all other considerations. Beware any who pretend otherwise.

While that is true to a certain extent, the morels and social values shift all the time and with time evolve, compare the 19th century to the latter 20th century - you will find a lot of things that you assumed didn't happen, happened. No nation has been killed in our lifetimes when they have shifted their core social principles from one side to another and they never will in our lifetimes. More often than not external forces are deemed to be the cause of any and all shifts in the social fabric of the country when it is not, blaming those without understanding or even caring where the changes are coming from. If we want to be run like a country by a select few who holds our values to the level of WASPs and have a homogeneous country with the same social rules for every and all occasions that failed in the 19th century, we should continue down this path of ignorance and use of resources to fight things that are not going to change overnight or maybe not change at all.

Social issues are the back ground issues, trivial in many respects to real issues that we face as a country. The economy trumps all, and second to that is our defense - not traditional marriage or abortion - which is all issues that have been and continue to be addressed in the court system but more importantly won't change unless it is through the courts. What matters for a strong country is not an amendment defining marriage but an amendment that defines the limitations of our government. What matters for a strong country is not whether or not lyrics of a song are damaging our children but that we can provide a path for them to have a good or better life than we have had. ALL of this is not happening because no one wants to put aside the idea that we need to control people to move the country forward and we keep electing people who are only promising things to groups of people and not to the country.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Bush was not and never could be a fascist.

McCain was never a conservative but a liberal. He would be considered a Fascist and isn't really a patriot when you come down to it - by the way he is a lier.

Obama is a marxist, his core beliefs fall right in line with a marxist but because he has to deal with a lot of different laws and that thing they call the constitution, he has shown the country that he is a fascist or at least his policies are. GM is the best example of this.

Hillary is a fascist, true one because she would take over a company and hand it off to freinds to control.

If you don't vote or vote for NOA, then you will elect people like Obama. In the case of Obama/McCain, McCain would be the more evil of the two but Palin removed a lot of that evil from those two. In the case if the election was hillary/?? and McCain/?? I would have ended up voting for hillary and hoped that she would win.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
It's a hoot to see quasi-conservatives flounder around wishing social conservatives would just go away. Real conservatism stands on two legs: economic conservatism and social conservatism. One who embraces only economic conservatism but eschews the social issues is actually a libertarian. Nothing wrong with being libertarian. Yet, for the sake of clarity, social conservatives are the bedrock of the conservative movement. Social issues define a culture. If a nation cannot rally around a shared set of commonly held social values, such as traditional marriage, then the claim to nationhood is tenuous at best.

Commonly held mores and social values are the glue which holds a nation together. The quickest and surest way to kill a nation is for citizens to disregard bedrock principles. Those who wish the United States resembled Denmark should stop calling themselves conservative. Social libertines will never find a home in the conservative movement. Social issues trump all other considerations. Beware any who pretend otherwise.

I totally understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately, one needs to be taught morals. It cannot be legislated. The people will disregard the Golden Rule whether it's a law or not. And if it's a law, then we're not truly a free society.

I don't agree with gay marriage, but I agree it should be a states issue. I don't agree with abortion, but I believe that too should be a states issue.

I take heed of Atheists. Their vindictiveness against Christians is mounting. Likewise, I beware of those who claim to live on the word of God, while doing the devil's work - ie, war.

Also, I object to the term social conservative being Christian, in and of itself. The religious right is a power base, not an ideology. Conservative values are libertarian in nature, with few changes. THAT kind of legislated morality, that comes from the religious right, is what scares away would-be Republican libertarians. I know of one gay man who claimed he would never vote Republican again after Pat Buchanan's ranting in the 92 presidential campaign. He is more libertarian than liberal, yet he votes Democrat. And the Republicans wonder why their message doesn't resonate. I'll tell them why... people do not want to be preached to by a bunch of Washington hypocrites!
 
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dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
If you don't vote or vote for NOA, then you will elect people like Obama. In the case of Obama/McCain, McCain would be the more evil of the two but Palin removed a lot of that evil from those two. In the case if the election was hillary/?? and McCain/?? I would have ended up voting for hillary and hoped that she would win.

If that were not so ridiculous, it might be funny.....
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You don't build a skyscraper from the spire down. You build from the foundation up. You recruit third party and write in for local and state level. You set precedents. Yu hopefully show the national level guys what they can expect and convert some of the borderline. You don't allow an 11 on the evil scale to win over a 7-8 evil just to feel good and you don't presume you're magically going to build your skyscraper from the top down.
 

Camper

Not a Member
You don't build a skyscraper from the spire down. You build from the foundation up. You recruit third party and write in for local and state level. You set precedents. Yu hopefully show the national level guys what they can expect and convert some of the borderline. You don't allow an 11 on the evil scale to win over a 7-8 evil just to feel good and you don't presume you're magically going to build your skyscraper from the top down.


Precisely my point...A viable third party can and will emerge once the two main ingredients (organizational structure and funding) get behind a viable grassroots movement. However, It's got to be one that captures the vast independent majority. To do that, as I've said, it will need to be very conservative on fiscal issues and libertarian on social issues. With the exception of crime, the vast majority tend to be either indifferent or libertarian with respect to the marginal/cultural issues.
 
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Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I disagree. If Leo's assumption were right, we'd have a couple more viable parties involved. But as it is, the only way to make headway in politics, at any level, is to kick the door in. And when they slam it, kick it in again! I have to hand it to Perot. He kept kicking the door in. But eventually, he ran out of steam. Not enough people were there to keep the ball rolling.

I see Obama as a useful evil (idiot). Without a Republican in office, the conservative movement can gain steam. But just with a Republican House, the media have been able to blame them for a lot of things; thus taking the wind out of our sails. With a RINO in office, there wouldn't be even a breeze left.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
If that were not so ridiculous, it might be funny.....

Nope it is not ridiculous at all.

We all knew what Obama was, we knew what he did in the senate, state senate and his history but McCain didn't show any real political fortitude and had what seems to be no political ideology behind him. He was the scarier of the two, unpredictable and rather an idiot. He showed the country he was willing to compromise on important issues, lie about others and put the safety of the country in jeopardy by providing a means for people who invaded to become citizens as a result of his pandering to a group who has no right to vote, even going so far as to insult many who were willing to take his offer that the work in Arizona was hard and only Mexicans could do it. Any one person who believed in him as presidential material was living in a dream world and Palin was the only thing that had hope for his administration and if it was like the campaign, it would have been bad for the country - a LOT worse than what we have now.

If there is any real ridiculous statement being made, it is the continuing focus on a man who we already know about who just happens to be in the WH today. We know what he said in the past, we know which direction he has tried to take us in and we know that he will not last.
 

Camper

Not a Member
I disagree. If Leo's assumption were right, we'd have a couple more viable parties involved. But as it is, the only way to make headway in politics, at any level, is to kick the door in. And when they slam it, kick it in again! I have to hand it to Perot. He kept kicking the door in. But eventually, he ran out of steam. Not enough people were there to keep the ball rolling.

Your shock and awe theory while plausible, doesn't quite account for the need Keep that "door kicked in" once it's kicked in. That can only happen with the back up of a strong grassroots organization.

The issue with the Reform Party is they didn't have a bench to draw from after Perot fizzled out. Having an all-star hitter is all well and good but you need relief hitters to make a playoff caliber team.
 

Camper

Not a Member
Nope it is not ridiculous at all.

We all knew what Obama was, we knew what he did in the senate, state senate and his history but McCain didn't show any real political fortitude and had what seems to be no political ideology behind him. He was the scarier of the two, unpredictable and rather an idiot. He showed the country he was willing to compromise on important issues, lie about others and put the safety of the country in jeopardy by providing a means for people who invaded to become citizens as a result of his pandering to a group who has no right to vote, even going so far as to insult many who were willing to take his offer that the work in Arizona was hard and only Mexicans could do it. Any one person who believed in him as presidential material was living in a dream world and Palin was the only thing that had hope for his administration and if it was like the campaign, it would have been bad for the country - a LOT worse than what we have now.

If there is any real ridiculous statement being made, it is the continuing focus on a man who we already know about who just happens to be in the WH today. We know what he said in the past, we know which direction he has tried to take us in and we know that he will not last.

Let's not forget that It was none other than Ed Kennedy who co-sponsored the Immigration "reform" bill McCain so vigorously defended.
 
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