The Trump Card...

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Did the Dems omit the part about "peacefully"or not? It's well documented they did.
I'm not sure I know what you are referring to here as I have not been closely following this idea or criticism. Does it have something to do with what the US House Jan 6 committee did or did not do? What are you talking about? Who omitted what, and when?
Why is Bard lying? Trump clearly said the word "peacefully" in his speech. He also used the words "peaceful" twice and "peace" three times that day at least.
Bard does not get it right all the time, and I was hasty in quoting it on this item. I later corrected that by looking at the transcript myself and doing the word count. That said, no word count from any speech is going to convince any court one way or another on the insurrection question. In the face of all the other evidence, the court findings are that Trump engaged in insurrection.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm not sure I know what you are referring to here as I have not been closely following this idea or criticism. Does it have something to do with what the US House Jan 6 committee did or did not do? What are you talking about? Who omitted what, and when?

Bard does not get it right all the time, and I was hasty in quoting it on this item. I later corrected that by looking at the transcript myself and doing the word count. That said, no word count from any speech is going to convince any court one way or another on the insurrection question. In the face of all the other evidence, the court findings are that Trump engaged in insurrection.
They omitted the part where he said “peacefully” in his speech when they played it at the impeachment trial.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
That hasn't been proven. Neither Trump nor anyone else has been indicted for incitement or engagement in insurrection. Regardless of what a low-level CO judge may have arbitrarily ruled, it has not been definitively established that there even was an insurrection. SCOTUS will have to decide that.
In the sense that Trump has not been charged with insurrection and found guilty of it in a court of law, you are correct. In the criminal sense, at the standard prescribed by criminal law, it has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that Trump committed insurrection. And, as you correctly point out, Trump has not even been indicted on an insurrection charge.

But a conviction for insurrection is not what the Constitution prescribes to disqualify someone from office on 14th Amendment grounds. In the 14th Amendment, a finding (not a conviction) that Trump "engaged in insurrection" (combined with the other criteria .... previously held office, took an oath) is sufficient to disqualify him from again holding the office of president.

These are not criminal trials in which convictions are obtained. They are not civil trials in which findings of liability are sought by the plaintiffs. These are civil trials of a different sort. They are trials in which a candidate's eligibility for office is challenged and determined. For that, the Constitutionally prescribed standards include "engaged in insurrection."

To date, two courts and one secretary of state have found that Trump engaged in insurrection. And to date, those findings have been sufficient to legally disqualify Trump from the ballots in Colorado and Maine. With appeals likely or pending, and with the rulings stayed or suspended pending such appeals, that is not the final word on the issue. But the rulings have been made, and they will stand if not reversed on appeal.
The Democrats' pretense of redefining "insurrection" remains meaningless.
Some, including me, would say nothing has been re-defined. The plain language use of "engaged in insurrection" has been properly applied in keeping with the Constitution. It is not "meaningless." If it was meaningless, it would not have made it through two courts and one secretary of state's proceedings. and it would not be now addressed by the appealing parties.

Much rides on the decisions the Supreme Court makes. And much of that rides on how the SCOTUS justices interpret "engaged in insurrection." Far from being meaningless, the Colorado and Maine applications of the phrase are absolutely crucial to the question of Trump's eligibility to hold the office of president.

I expect the US Supreme Court to take up this case and make a ruling, but I have no idea which way it will go. But even if SCOTUS rules that Trump is not disqualified on 14th Amendment grounds, I would not say the losing side's interpretation of "engaged in insurrection" is meaningless. I would say it was not persuasive. It is a meaningful question, legitimately raised and legitimately heard in the ballot eligibility challenges now underway.

The cases have not been dismissed as frivolous, precisely because the questions being raised are meaningful.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Stay tuned. The SCOTUS will eventually rule on this. All in good time.
Of course they will. My point is that the longer they wait, the more likely it will seem that they are not eager to take up this case. They can take this up very quickly if they choose to. But the longer they wait, the more people will wonder if the delay portends bad news for Trump.

The question is, if SCOTUS is predisposed to rule in Trump's favor on the 14th Amendment question, and if they can quickly do so, why do they not? What are they waiting for? Why are they choosing to complicate Trump's campaign by leaving the question unresolved, when they could simplify it by making a quick ruling in his favor? Why are they allowing ballot-ban progress to be made in additional lawsuits in additional states, when they could end this with a Trump-favorable ruling now?

People on both sides are clamoring for a rapid SCOTUS ruling. The longer SCOTUS waits to take this up, they more curious it will be.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
A "group" of three voters challenged Trump's eligibility
The three voters are Kimberly Rosen, Thomas Saviello, and Ethan Strimling. Rosen is a former Republican state senator. Saviello is an independent. Strimling is a Democrat.
and of course Bellows had to follow the required "process" which would allow her to disenfranchise over 300K ME Republican citizens from voting for the candidate of their choice.
The "disenfranchise" argument is widely made, and as I consider it from the view of an ordinary Republican voter who wants to vote for Trump, I have some sympathy for the argument. If I want to vote for Trump, and if I was prevented from doing so because the powers that be disqualified him from being listed on the ballot, I would feel disenfranchised. It would seem like an injustice to me. It would seem to me that Trump is right is saying the system is rigged. And it would motivate me to support Trump even more since no one else is strong enough to right this wrong and restore my voting rights.

Additionally, a number of prominent Democrats are arguing that the right thing to do is keep Trump's name on the ballot to let the voters decide, not the courts.

It would piss me off that people were trying to negate my vote by disqualifying Trump. It is fundamentally wrong to disenfranchise me and others like me. Indeed, if I am so disenfranchised, democracy has failed, the Constitution has failed, the courts have failed and America is America no more. That gives me permission to rise in revolt to establish or re-establish a better system in which I am not disenfranchised and I am allowed to vote for or otherwise support my leader of choice.

When one focuses on voting as the solution to the eligibility issue, these are the comments you hear. But if one focus on maintaining the integrity of the Constitution and the voting process itself, you end up arguing the legal aspects of the issue, not the political side. And that's what I'm inclined to do.

To me, while voting is absolutely crucial for all citizens in a democracy, it is even more essential that the system by which the voting is conducted is more essential. The rules must be fairly and equally applied, and that the integrity of Constitution itself - the core mechanism that established the rules - be maintained.

In this case, the fundamental question is not about a voter's right to vote. That has not been challenged in the recent cases. The voters' right to vote remains sacrosanct. The fundamental question is about a particular candidate's eligibility to be in the race.

If voters wanted to vote for Putin, they are not disenfranchised because Putin's name is not on the ballot. The pro-Putin voters are unable to vote for their candidate of choice because Putin is obviously not eligible to hold the office of US president. In the Trump case, the eligibility question is less obvious, which is why it is now working its way through the courts and will eventually be resolved by SCOTUS.

But however SCOTUS decides, it will be deciding a candidate eligibility question, not a voter disenfranchisement question.

Bellows isn't an elected official - she's appointed by a group of state Democrat party leaders.
Actually, "As a Constitutional Officer, the Secretary is elected biennially through joint ballot of the Maine State Legislature." (Source) At present, Democrats hold the majority in both the state senate and house.

Considering Maine is a strong Blue state, she could've left Trump on the ballot and let the voters decide. Instead she used three Democrat allies
It was not three Democratic allies. As stated above it was one Republican, one independent and one Democrat who filed the challenge.
to aid the process that facilitated this nakedly partisan decision.
The Secretary anticipated that objection when she explained her decision. She argues the deciison was made on its merits, not on partisan considerations. And given the very interesting point you made, the fact that she took up the issue at all and made the ruling she did, suggests she really did do what she said she did. She took up the case not for partisian reasons, but because the law retured her to. And she did not take the easy way out, leaving Trump on the ballot and letting Blue Maine defeat him in November. She brought down a ton of heat on herself by making the ruling she thought the law required her to make.


And that's exactly what's going to happen in both CO and ME; Trump will remain on both ballots pending appeal. CO ballots go to the printer on Jan 5th, so SCOTUS needs to rule before then. Ain't gonna happen.
That's why it would be best for SCOTUS to resolve this ASAP. The longer they wait, the messier this becomes. Yes, ballot printing has a deadline. But the deadline itself does nothing to render Trump eligibile or ineligible to hold the office of president. That decision rests with the courts, whenever they make it.

If Trump appeals, and SCOTUS does not quickly rule, or chooses to not rule (unlikely), we could end up in a situation where Trump is on the ballot in Maine and Colorado but votes cast for him will not be counted. Further, in Minnesota and Michigan, courts there made rulings regarding the primary ballot. Both state supreme courts said the Trump eligibility question can be later filed regarding Trump's name on the general election ballot.

This will get messier and messier the longer SCOTUS waits.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Unlikely that SCOTUS will decide "whether or not there was an insurrection".

Whether or not there was an insurrection would be a finding of fact.

In the United States Judicial System trial courts are considered to be the triers of facts ... and appeals courts - of which SCOTUS is the highest - generally limit themselves to matters of errors in the application of the law ... as applied by lower courts.

Appellate courts generally defer to trial courts and grant them great deference on fact finding ... particularly when a jury is the finder of fact.

For an appeals court to overturn a lower court's findings of fact, the findings of the lower court would most likely have to be "clearly erroneous":
Good point.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Maybe a greater reliance on the truth will help. In that spirit, I went to a transcript of the speech itself. If you care to do the work, you will see Trump used the words/phrase "peacefully and patriotically" just one time. He used the word "fight," "fights," or "fighting" 20 times.
Bard does not get it right all the time, and I was hasty in quoting it on this item. I later corrected that by looking at the transcript myself and doing the word count. That said, no word count from any speech is going to convince any court one way or another on the insurrection question. In the face of all the other evidence, the court findings are that Trump engaged in insurrection.
But the Left used the fact that Trump mentioned the word “fight” in his speech multiple times to say that is inculpatory evidence while downplaying and even omitting a mention of him saying the word “peacefully” and using the word “peaceful” and “peace” multiple times. That’s the center of their argument: the speech he used.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Why do you state that this court is “pro-Trump”?
I could have been more clear and said the court is said by many to be pro-Trump. That is not an unreasonable claim to make since the majority of justices are Republican appointees and three of them are Trump appointees.

Beneath my "pro-Trump" characterization is a touch of cynicism. In fact, this court has shown itself to be more pro-law than pro-Trump. In the political cases (not policy cases) Trump has argued before this court, the justices have ruled against him every time, except one. They did not express their findings in partisan or Trump terms. They expressed their findings as points of law.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
No, they did not. They just decided to not remove him from office, not that he was worthy.
Not true. It was based on the evidence presented whether it deemed him not able( worthy in essence ) to continue as president
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
They omitted the part where he said “peacefully” in his speech when they played it at the impeachment trial.
That is of ZERO consequence. That omission has not been raised in court by any Trump attorney that I now of. It if the point you are raising mattered, they certainly would have.

Saying the committee left something out of the tapes they played at their hearings is like saying a toy a child in France lost on the playground a year ago is somehow significant to a bank robbery trial now underway in the US.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
But the Left used the fact that Trump mentioned the word “fight” in his speech multiple times to say that is inculpatory evidence while downplaying and even omitting a mention of him saying the word “peacefully” and using the word “peaceful” and “peace” multiple times. That’s the center of their argument: the speech he used.
Read the trial transcripts and rulings to learn what really happened.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is of ZERO consequence. That omission has not been raised in court by any Trump attorney that I now of. It if the point you are raising mattered, they certainly would have.

Saying the committee left something out of the tapes they played at their hearings is like saying a toy a child in France lost on the playground a year ago is somehow significant to a bank robbery trial now underway in the US.
They thought it was important enough to purposely omit it from public view.
Regardless, expect the SCOTUS to rule on this at some point as well regarding the impeachment clause.
 
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