The Trump Card...
- Thread starter muttly
- Start date
Sure enough - as predicted, Trump indicted.
nypost.com
Trump indicted on 7 charges — including under Espionage Act — in Mar-a-Lago classified documents caseÂ
Former President Donald Trump has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges related to mishandling classified White House documents that were recovered at his Mar-a-Lago estate.
nypost.com
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
They now have to do the same to Biden because he did it as a vice president.Sure enough - as predicted, Trump indicted.
Trump indicted on 7 charges — including under Espionage Act — in Mar-a-Lago classified documents caseÂ
Former President Donald Trump has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges related to mishandling classified White House documents that were recovered at his Mar-a-Lago estate.
Trump Indicted ... Again
News broke tonight that Trump has been indicted in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. This is the second time he has been indicted. The first was in March, when he was indicted in a New York state court on 34 counts of falsifying business records. Two more indictments are expected (Georgia election interference, Jan 6).
Regarding the Mar-a-Lago documents case:
News broke tonight that Trump has been indicted in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. This is the second time he has been indicted. The first was in March, when he was indicted in a New York state court on 34 counts of falsifying business records. Two more indictments are expected (Georgia election interference, Jan 6).
Regarding the Mar-a-Lago documents case:
- Trump did it.
- Trump admits he did it ("I took them.")
- The evidence includes physical evidence seized in Trump's home.
- The key witnesses are Republicans; some of whom served in the highest levels of the Trump administration and organizations, and some who were in the room as Trump committed the crimes in question.
- The Miami court in which the case will be heard is known for having a "rocket docket;" meaning it is a no-nonsense court that moves its cases quickly through. It does not tolerate frivolous motions or needless delays.
- The appeals court above the Miami court is the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals; a court dominated by Republican-appointed judges, including some Trump-appointed judges, who have ruled decisively against Trump in the past.
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The List Grows
- It is gratifying to see Trump be indicted and surrender for arrest in Manhattan,
- It is gratifying to see Trump lose and be ordered by the jury to pay $5 million in the Jean Carroll case.
- It is gratifying to see Trump indicted in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
Joe Biden is looking at worse charges then because he took classified documents as both senator and vice president that he had no security clearanc to even have in his possession.
Your looking at
Treason
Espionage
Thief of government property
Quid pro quo
Acting as a foreign agent
Obstruction of justice
Rico act
The Charges
We'll know more when the indictment is unsealed. At present, we know, "Trump is facing a charge under the Espionage Act, his attorney Jim Trusty said on CNN Thursday, as well as charges of obstruction of justice, destruction or falsification of records, conspiracy and false statements." (Source)
We'll know more when the indictment is unsealed. At present, we know, "Trump is facing a charge under the Espionage Act, his attorney Jim Trusty said on CNN Thursday, as well as charges of obstruction of justice, destruction or falsification of records, conspiracy and false statements." (Source)
Maybe so, but there is a major difference. Biden was cooperative when the documents were discovered. Trump was obstructive. Pence also was immediately cooperative when classified documents were discovered in his possession, and DOJ recently announced Pence will not be charged.
There have been other cases where classified documents were found to be improperly possessed by certain people. Their typical response is immediate cooperation and the immediate return of the documents. In those cases too, charges were not filed.
By attempting to keep the documents and obstructing the government's attempts to recover them, Trump dug himself into a deep, deep hole that other people did not.
It will not happen that I will be called for jury duty in this case because I live in a Florida county different than where the trial will be held. If I was called, the Trump side would likely exclude me during the jury selection process. My answers to their screening questions would lead them to choose others over me.
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
No the 2 differences is Biden is a Democrat and he took classified documents that he should not have taken.......just because he is being cooperative doesn't mean he should not get charged like trump.....the charges on Biden are worse than trumps because treason and espionage can be put on biden.....and let not forget that bidens lawyers got to look through the classified documents.
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
danthewolf00
Veteran Expediter
The archive didn't even know Biden had the classified documents which means Biden took them with out permission AND he didn't have security clearance to even take them.
Joe biden took classified documents as a senator and as vice president which means he can be impeached and then charged for treason and espionage.
Joe biden took classified documents as a senator and as vice president which means he can be impeached and then charged for treason and espionage.
Lots to Absorb
The indictment for the Mar-a-Lago documents case was unsealed today. I'm going to read the entire document before saying much about it. But based on what I'm hearing reported, it seems to me that Trump is doomed.
While I'd like to see Cannon recuse herself from this case, it would not trouble me greatly if she does not. Any inane rulings she makes will be appealed by DOJ. Based on history, I'm confident that the 11th Circuit will set her straight.
Assuming a conviction, it will be a year or maybe even two before the sentencing phase of this trial is reached. It would be the irony of all ironies if pro-Trump Cannon was the judge who, constrained by sentencing guidelines and a watchful 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, sentenced Trump to several years in prison.
The indictment for the Mar-a-Lago documents case was unsealed today. I'm going to read the entire document before saying much about it. But based on what I'm hearing reported, it seems to me that Trump is doomed.
- The photo evidence was provided by Trump employees who took photos with their phones.
- Some of the witnesses are Trump's own attorneys who produced a trove of detailed contemporaneous notes about what they saw and heard.
- The evidence includes an audio tape of Trump, in his own voice, saying things that clearly indicate guilt.
- The sensitivity of the classified documents is high enough to alert any juror to the seriousness of these crimes.
While I'd like to see Cannon recuse herself from this case, it would not trouble me greatly if she does not. Any inane rulings she makes will be appealed by DOJ. Based on history, I'm confident that the 11th Circuit will set her straight.
Assuming a conviction, it will be a year or maybe even two before the sentencing phase of this trial is reached. It would be the irony of all ironies if pro-Trump Cannon was the judge who, constrained by sentencing guidelines and a watchful 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, sentenced Trump to several years in prison.
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The Indictment
First, here's the link to the indictment itself. It is 44 pages, double-spaced, and easy to read.
A full reading of the indictment affirms what I said above; namely, Trump is doomed.
This will likely be one of the most scrutinized and consequential indictments in US history. DOJ knows this and for that reason will put nothing into it that they cannot fully support with hard evidence. The plethora of hard evidence referenced by the indictment is astounding. I believe this evidence will make it easy for prosecutors to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty of the crimes alleged in the indictment.
Republican supporters of Trump seem to know this. Their quoted and broadcast reactions to the indictment focus mostly on DOJ, Hillary, Biden and Pence. Few if any are commenting on the evidence itself. Few if any are speaking about Trump's haphazard handling of these documents and the grave risk he thereby posed to national security. Instead, they change the subject to something else. Few if any are saying the evidence is questionable or weak.
Regarding certain points repeatedly made in this thread in previous months, I offer the following:
1. The documents were NOT kept safe in a Mar-a-Lago store room.
The documents were kept in various locations and moved multiple times. The indictment says, "The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP’s presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club—including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room."
The indictment also says no documents were placed in the storage room until May, 2021, months after Trump left the White House. Between January and May, they were stored in various places at Mar-a-Lago. After May, 2021, some, not all, of the documents were kept in that room.
This movement and locations are documented partly by text messages and photos created by Trump employees. Video tapes showing the documents being moved are also in evidence. The movements of the documents can be traced to the minute. The photos are below.
2. The documents were NOT secured and protected by Secret Service agents.
The indictment says, "The United States Secret Service (the “Secret Service”) provided protection services to TRUMP and his family after he left office, including at The Mar-a-Lago Club, but it was not responsible for the protection of TRUMP’s boxes or their contents. TRUMP did not inform the Secret Service that he was storing boxes containing classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club."
3. Some in this thread have repeatedly argued that Trump declassified the documents so no crime regarding classified documents could have been committed. For counts 1-31 of this 38-count indictment, the classification status is NOT relevant.
For those counts, the indictment says, "... the defendant, DONALD J. TRUMP, having unauthorized possession of, access to, and control over documents relating to the national defense, did willfully retain the documents and fail to deliver them to the officer and employee of the United States entitled to receive them; that is-TRUMP, without authorization, retained at The Mar-a-Lago Club documents relating to the national defense, ..."
Regardless of their classification status, the documents in question clearly relate to the national defense. That alone establishes the crimes.
4. The documents were NOT safeguarded as classified documents should be.
The indictment says, "From January through March 15, 2021, some of TRUMP’s boxes were stored in The Mar-a-Lago Club’s White and Gold Ballroom, in which events and gatherings took place. TRUMP’s boxes were for a time stacked on the ballroom’s stage, as depicted in the photograph below."
5. The documents did NOT get moved to Mar-a-Lago by the inadvertent actions of government employees.
Trump himself assembled this collection of boxes and documents. The indictment says, "Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents."
And the indictment says, "At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents."
A full reading of the indictment shows Trump was deeply interested and deeply involved with these highly-sensitive, national-security documents. Over time while in office, he personally assembled the collection; filling dozens of boxes with thousands of pages of articles, clippings, inert papers, etc.; and than inserting hundreds of highly classified pages through the collection. He caused the boxes to be moved to Mar-a-Lago and haphazardly stored there. He repeatedly directed the movement and locations of the boxes to conceal and keep them from government recovery. He took some of the boxes with him when he moved to his New Jersey summer residence. While unsuccessful, he tried to get his attorney's to commit crimes on his behalf in an effort to keep some of the documents.
The indictment does not address why Trump was so interested in these documents and I don't know either. To answer that question, we can only guess.
First, here's the link to the indictment itself. It is 44 pages, double-spaced, and easy to read.
A full reading of the indictment affirms what I said above; namely, Trump is doomed.
This will likely be one of the most scrutinized and consequential indictments in US history. DOJ knows this and for that reason will put nothing into it that they cannot fully support with hard evidence. The plethora of hard evidence referenced by the indictment is astounding. I believe this evidence will make it easy for prosecutors to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump is guilty of the crimes alleged in the indictment.
Republican supporters of Trump seem to know this. Their quoted and broadcast reactions to the indictment focus mostly on DOJ, Hillary, Biden and Pence. Few if any are commenting on the evidence itself. Few if any are speaking about Trump's haphazard handling of these documents and the grave risk he thereby posed to national security. Instead, they change the subject to something else. Few if any are saying the evidence is questionable or weak.
Regarding certain points repeatedly made in this thread in previous months, I offer the following:
1. The documents were NOT kept safe in a Mar-a-Lago store room.
The documents were kept in various locations and moved multiple times. The indictment says, "The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP’s presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club—including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room."
The indictment also says no documents were placed in the storage room until May, 2021, months after Trump left the White House. Between January and May, they were stored in various places at Mar-a-Lago. After May, 2021, some, not all, of the documents were kept in that room.
This movement and locations are documented partly by text messages and photos created by Trump employees. Video tapes showing the documents being moved are also in evidence. The movements of the documents can be traced to the minute. The photos are below.
2. The documents were NOT secured and protected by Secret Service agents.
The indictment says, "The United States Secret Service (the “Secret Service”) provided protection services to TRUMP and his family after he left office, including at The Mar-a-Lago Club, but it was not responsible for the protection of TRUMP’s boxes or their contents. TRUMP did not inform the Secret Service that he was storing boxes containing classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club."
3. Some in this thread have repeatedly argued that Trump declassified the documents so no crime regarding classified documents could have been committed. For counts 1-31 of this 38-count indictment, the classification status is NOT relevant.
For those counts, the indictment says, "... the defendant, DONALD J. TRUMP, having unauthorized possession of, access to, and control over documents relating to the national defense, did willfully retain the documents and fail to deliver them to the officer and employee of the United States entitled to receive them; that is-TRUMP, without authorization, retained at The Mar-a-Lago Club documents relating to the national defense, ..."
Regardless of their classification status, the documents in question clearly relate to the national defense. That alone establishes the crimes.
4. The documents were NOT safeguarded as classified documents should be.
The indictment says, "From January through March 15, 2021, some of TRUMP’s boxes were stored in The Mar-a-Lago Club’s White and Gold Ballroom, in which events and gatherings took place. TRUMP’s boxes were for a time stacked on the ballroom’s stage, as depicted in the photograph below."
5. The documents did NOT get moved to Mar-a-Lago by the inadvertent actions of government employees.
Trump himself assembled this collection of boxes and documents. The indictment says, "Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents."
And the indictment says, "At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents."
A full reading of the indictment shows Trump was deeply interested and deeply involved with these highly-sensitive, national-security documents. Over time while in office, he personally assembled the collection; filling dozens of boxes with thousands of pages of articles, clippings, inert papers, etc.; and than inserting hundreds of highly classified pages through the collection. He caused the boxes to be moved to Mar-a-Lago and haphazardly stored there. He repeatedly directed the movement and locations of the boxes to conceal and keep them from government recovery. He took some of the boxes with him when he moved to his New Jersey summer residence. While unsuccessful, he tried to get his attorney's to commit crimes on his behalf in an effort to keep some of the documents.
The indictment does not address why Trump was so interested in these documents and I don't know either. To answer that question, we can only guess.
Attachments
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