starting up, looking for drivers, questions

markwilson

Seasoned Expediter
again, making money on his four trucks, saying his trucks are running strong and last month averaged 3K a week. sorry, but we're not going to give up just yet.

we know it's going to be a lot of work, and a steep learning curve. but why the animosity?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
what we don't understand, at this time, is the disconnect that appears to have manifest here. One on hand, we have a plethora of experienced fleet owners telling us with overwhelming emphasis that chances are slim that we can succeed; on the other, we have a colleague who has been working for panther and has four trucks and despite the recession is making money.

Well being frank, the problem is that is one owner out of many. He is telling you or showing you what his operation is doing but it is limiting you. What you need to do is get involved with this, buy a small truck without putting a lot of capital into it and go on the road. Spend time with Panther or another company and see the differences yourself.

thanks greg for your time and insight. we are, as stated, genuinely surprised as to the candor and foresight given in the responses, especially yours and dave's.

Would you be willing to share with us a summary of your body of work in the industry? years, experience, ups/downs, philosophy, etc?

Well you're welcome. Dave is a great resource as is a number of others who will tell it like it really is.

My background isn't really important, I won't say much because it feeds my fan club and I will get bashed again. I will however say that it is not without merit or experience and I just wrapped up straighting out a small fleet for an owner who was ready to file bankruptcy because of the loses he had through mismanagement.
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
you know, you'll all get a kick out of this:

actually, i'm not the spreadsheet/financial guy. my partner might/will be doing this.

i'm actually the guy to call with problems on the road.


Well then, a quick question. And I expect a quick answer, as will your Carrier.

Whom would you call to fix a blowout that occured at 0100 (1AM) Saturday nite, on rt 17, South of Burlington, Vermont? Answer should be next post!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Wow. It appears all the research has been done based on a "best case" scenario. Like Cheri said, finding teams is easy, finding good teams is not. For every good team you can find, there are 10 who will trash the truck, not take care of it, get bored or discouraged because the easy money they thought they were going to get isn't there, and they quit. These 10 teams are the ones "looking for work, ready for action, and able to get in a truck after orientation in days."

"we know that driver turnover is a leading cause of owner problems/bankruptcy, but doesn't that also imply that there are ample numbers available?"

No. It implies there are ample warm bodies available, all of whom caused fleet owners to go bankrupt.

So, after you've been burned a couple of times and you realize that merely a team of warm bodies isn't gonna cut it, the truck sits there for a week or three while you find another team and they go through orientation.

In the "best case," sure, you can have teams lined up and waiting in the wings, but this is reality we're talking about here, and any team worth their weight in sand isn't going to sit around for weeks waiting for a truck to get into. A good team will wait even less time. Unless you're prepared to put a team on retainer and pay them to wait, they won't.

"regarding gas prices, we are being told that price fluctuations really don't significantly affect the owner's take, since any increase in fuel is offset by higher charges from points above"

In the rose-colored glasses, overly simplistic view of things, that's true, especially if the split is 60/40 with the 60 going to the team and they're paying for fuel. On a load by load basis, that won't affect the owner's take at all. But fuel costs affect the driver, and as fuel costs rise, the drivers see their incomes shrink while the owner's income stays the same. Frustration sets in, they quit. Or, they start cherry picking loads to get the most return out of each one. They do OK but the owner's revenue drops over the long run. The owner isn't pleased and starts looking for a new team. Or it can be as simple as higher fuel prices result in long term depressed revenue for the drivers and they simply get discouraged and quit.

Drivers have no investment in the business, not a penny in the truck. Always remember that. They are not motivated to take the truck into consideration in any decisions they make. Aside from many not wanting to take care of it, they don't understand the ramifications of truck ownership. Meaning, they see the work they are doing and see how much of the revenue they don't get, because it's going to the owner, and they get frustrated, especially when their fuel costs are preventing them from making what they expect. The problems of driving for a truck owner and not understanding things from the owner's perspective are almost as profound as an owner who has never driven a truck trying to understand things from the driver's perspective.

Not too long after I got into this business (driving a van) I thought to myself, "Well, I need to get me 2 or 3 more of these. Put some drivers in 'em and make me some real money. Maybe get that straight truck that a neighbor has for sale." Then I talked to more and more drivers, of cargo vans and straight trucks, and it became evident what I would be getting myself in for. In short order it became clear that finding and keeping good drivers could very well end up being a near-full time job.

It also became clear that I didn't know squat, and the more I learned the less I knew. At this point I've learned a lot, so I'm pretty much clueless and don't know a thing.

My advice to someone who wants to get into expediting, at this point in time, as a straight truck fleet owner, would be to buy a good, used truck, cheaply, put down as much as you can, have it paid off in a year, and before you take the first load have between $5000 and $10,000 in the bank for reserves, and then drive it yourself for a solid year.

After a year you'll have a little insight into what it's like out here, you'll see the money that is there on both ends after a 60/40 split, you'll have talked to many drivers and you'll know what you're dealing with, your truck will be paid off, and if you still like what you see then you can stick a team in there and then start thinking about a $100,000 truck.

Nobody here is telling you that it will not work, or your chances are zero. Some fleet owners are indeed successful. You friend is apparently one of them. Very few failed fleet owners hang out here on EO. But the simple fact is most are not successful, most fail, and the ones who fail have all generally come into the business with the same outlook as you - optimistic and full of assumptions garnered as a result of inexperience and ignorance. The point of the responses is not to discourage people from getting into this business, but rather as the Col said, we're trying to keep you from stepping on your own crank.

Just a recently here we had a guy on here who asked about buying a van and getting into the expediting. It quickly became clear that he was clueless and was setting himself up for disaster. When he was told by several people what kind of van to buy and what kind not to buy, he promptly went out and bought what not to buy. When he was told what to do and not do when outfitting it, he powered through and did all the wrong things, 'cause he knew better. People make bad decisions, but not him. He was going to be the exception to the rule. It was only the day before he was go to orientation that he saw the light and found out that his revenue expectations were just plain silly, even though he had been told several times just how silly they were.

He was a classic stereotypical example of someone from general trucking who was wholly unprepared for expediting. He was used to driving a company truck, driving 8-10 hours a day, every day, racking up the miles. He was bound and determined, just like all the rest of the stereotypical examples, that expediting would be essentially the same, and he would succeed. We were able to open his eyes a bit and he reevaluated his expectations. Disaster averted.

You are the classic stereotypical example of someone who isn't in the business and therefor doesn't really know it, but wants to get into expediting, and will be coming into it with cherry picked examples and very limited knowledge of successful fleet owners and thinking that's the norm, and believing you'll do the same. You can't look at the 20% of successful fleet owners who are successful and translate that into "I will be, too." Just because you're friend is successful with 4 trucks doesn't mean you will be with even one, even if you do all the things he does. Things may work out great and you might be wildy successful, but the fact is, the chances are that you won't. And if you're not fully prepared for that, it'll be a disaster.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Sorry but I'm gonna be blunt here (as usual):

as stated, we are young professionals with no experience in trucking.
BIG STRIKE ONE

however, we have an invaluable asset in our friend who is making money with four trucks.
Your invaluable asset may, in actuality, a very hidden liability (albeit unbeknownst to you)

Have you actually looked at this guys books ?

If so, in detail ?

How sure are you about how well he's really doing ?

Sadly, there alot of folks out there who will brag it up as to how they're doing ...... and if you have any doubts about this go down to your local truckstop and hang around a bit ....

How long has your "asset" been in the industry ?

What was your "asset's" background before trucking ?

What is yours and your partners ?

Since you have NO ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in this industry, that should be something that inclines you to move very cautiously indeed ...

what we don't understand, at this time, is the disconnect that appears to have manifest here.
Well, in my book, that in itself would be a big red flag .... and necessitate caution and further careful investigation .... the best type being the kind obtained with one's butt planted in the driver's seat .....

One on hand, we have a plethora of experienced fleet owners telling us with overwhelming emphasis that chances are slim that we can succeed;
Many who have already replied in this thread have seen them come .... and seen 'em go .....

on the other, we have a colleague who has been working for panther and has four trucks and despite the recession is making money.
So he claims - you seen his financials ?

and yes, we do have a 5% interest rate offered (over 5 years) or 5.75% over 30.
Over 30 .......hmmmm ..... please, please, please tell me that this DOES NOT in any whatsoever, involve either your or your partners homes ...... :rolleyes:

why is it so wrong that we are pursuing this?
Nothing ..... just be aware: many have tried and failed ..... far more than have actually made it .....

I'm sure, being a "young professional" you have a fairly high opinion of your own intelligence - and you seem reasonably smart enough ...... but don't let that lull you into an unreasonable expectation of what it's gonna be like: you are starting from a point of absolutely no experience in this industry.

And if you are counting on your "asset" to be a guiding hand to get you through the tough times of starting up and getting some (minimal) experience as a fleet owner, have you bothered to consider what position you will be in if that relationship takes a turn for the worst, and you have a falling out ?

is there an unwritten rule in the industry to gently (or otherwise) nudge newcomers away, due to the concept that we would be competing for the same resources?
Not particularly that I know of - but, from my observation, there does seem to be willingness (as the col said, sometimes above and beyond the call) to at least give the fresh meat some clue about what they may in for .....

If not, then we would like someone to explain WHY it won't work.
Dude,

You do realize don't you, that your total lack of experience very probably puts you at the point of not knowing what it is that you don't know - and so not even being up to the point of knowing what questions to ask ....

Consider that very long and hard ....
 
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markwilson

Seasoned Expediter
well said, turtle.

as to the question on burlington, i just had a chance to get back to the computer, and have not googled or called my partner.

My answer: an unequivocal "not the foggiest idea".

I suppose that if we actually did get a truck I would hope I would be more versed in the basics. At this time, I would probably look online and fine the nearest Freightliner dealer or truck repair place, put in a call to them, and arrange fromt there.
 

ConfusedMuse

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"...we estimate that our break-even mileage is only 800 miles/week. If the average panther truck runs around 2000-3000 miles/week," ...So are you automatically going to become Elite? and, yes it is possible to run 600 miles a day with a team... BUT that's no hiccups, no waiting at the shippers, no traffic snarls, no level one inspections, no extended pottybreaks,under 28 years of age, no lunch, 70 mph the whole way... Perhaps as a fleet owner your friend is averaging 3000 miles a week with 4 trucks I would think so, with one yadda yadda. Seriously take to heart everything, everyone here is saying. We've been at this 6 years, and we are still wet behind the ears. Drive someone else's truck, your friend's truck drive it for a year, then make a decision, and follow through. Wish you more common sense, and the ability to use it wisely, oh yea and alot of luck
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Yepper, and at 1AM Any day of the week they don't make road calls to fix tires. In fact they don't make road calls to fix tires period. And would you be accessable and coherent at 1AM for a driver to call with their "road problems"? All i'm trying to convey here is, it wont wait till normal business hours, yer paid the big buks to gitrdone. I say again......tink about your crank!
 

markwilson

Seasoned Expediter
agreed, RLENT. points taken.

and yes, those rates are on the home, which is paid for. personal assets exceed price of home, so although the risk of losing home is real, in actuality quite small.

we are trying to get best rate possible, obviously.

with your point on NOT knowing what we DONT know, and such, couldn't we get one used truck, as you suggest, and 'learn the ropes'? i know there are thousands of things to learn, but can't they be learned?

as we see it, there are two worst case scenarios (and we HAVE at least considered them)--1) the truck has multiple expensive breakdowns, including the need for engine overhaul; 2) we have driver problems and the truck sits there. with 1), we are out at most what, $20-25k? (I Don't know!), and then we restart, and 2) the truck sits, and we sell the truck for a loss. Either way, aren't we only looking at a relatively small loss? is there a scenario whereby we could lose 50, 100K on a 70K truck? I don't know. . .that is why I am here.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
markwilson;399173 is there an unwritten rule in the industry to gently (or otherwise) nudge newcomers away said:
If your plan is to run reefer trucks for Panther, not one person who has responded would be competing for the freight that you want.[/FONT]
If so, then please tell us, and we will respect that and vacate this forum. If not, then we would like someone to explain WHY it won't work.
We're trying, from various perspectives, but you just want to hear what your other friend told you, sounds like.

And the reason we try to help is, some of us remember [with gratitude] those who helped us when we didn't know nothin.
 

markwilson

Seasoned Expediter
well, yes, we do want to hear that we can become millionaires!!! we do want to hear that it is possible. otherwise i'd be watching college football. we're just two guys with optimism and a working model, looking for knowledge.

again, we DO APPRECIATE the responses.
 

ConfusedMuse

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
worst case scenario......hrmmmmmmmmm your team in the truck are alcoholics, beer is sold in most truckstops, they buy a 12 pack, maybe 2.. they get a call, a fantastic dispatch,short run mega bucks.. know they shouldn't accept it but the owner (you) have been calling and micro-managing them, so they take the run. after picking up the freight, they slide through a red light and take out a family of 6 on vacation... I think I'd bend over and kiss the world goodbye if i was the fleet owner with this truck.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
agreed, RLENT. points taken. and yes, those rates are on the home, which is paid for.
Don't do it.

personal assets exceed price of home, so although the risk of losing home is real, in actuality quite small.
Seriously, don't do it.

we are trying to get best rate possible, obviously.
Obviously .... but don't do it.

with your point on NOT knowing what we DONT know, and such, couldn't we get one used truck, as you suggest, and 'learn the ropes'? i know there are thousands of things to learn, but can't they be learned?
Sure - they absolutely can - but the point is that one should survive the learning process ..... so as to have a future potential to apply lessons learned, the knowledge gained .... :D

..... which is the very reason that one of the most often given pieces of very sage advice given to folks considering getting into expedite (usually just as drivers) is:

Go drive for a fleet owner for a year .... and learn on their dime ........
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
as we see it, there are two worst case scenarios (and we HAVE at least considered them)
Only two ?

I must have a real active imagination ...... :rolleyes:

1) the truck has multiple expensive breakdowns, including the need for engine overhaul; 2) we have driver problems and the truck sits there. with 1), we are out at most what, $20-25k? (I Don't know!), and then we restart, and 2) the truck sits, and we sell the truck for a loss. Either way, aren't we only looking at a relatively small loss? is there a scenario whereby we could lose 50, 100K on a 70K truck?
See ConfusedMuse's reply for starters .....

But I'm sure that's only one of many possible "worst-case" scenarios ....

BTW, I'm not a fleet owner (although I have considered it) - I just own/drive a cargo van - and so have no dog in this fight really.
 

ConfusedMuse

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Mark... where's the job your leaving to join us.. the one where you get to spend every night in your own bed, shower in the shower that you were the last person in. Was it a decent job.....5 days a week, 2 consective days off....... so what does it pay....we might be able to switch positions....

Did you explain in detail to your banker what your doing with the money so they can get your foreclosure papers ready? Did you read the papers and read the part where it says that 4000 small trucking companies have gone under in the last 6 months, and this doesn't even mention the big companies that have disappeared.
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I'm not a fleet owner either, I just drive for one, and know just how badly the wrong drivers can screw up your truck/sleep/reputation/credit and your life, ok?
No matter how carefully you research every aspect of the business, putting drivers in your truck is the wild card - you don't know how much they can mess up until they do.
As I said before, good teams are hard to find, and the demand far outstrips the supply.

 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
BTW, you mentioned that you and your partner are "young professionals" ..... I dunno precisely what that means - and I'm not asking really - but is this venture something you are planning on doing whilst pursuing another profession full-time, regularly ? (ie. on a daily basis)

Cause if that's the case, you might really wanna consider how the worst case thingie might work in light of that ......

And here's one for ya: I'll assume being young professionals, that neither you or your partner possess a CDL .....

Dunno where you two live but ..... whatcha gonna do if one of your drivers/teams just abandons the truck ..... at the other end of the country ?
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Or [because you followed your friend's advice and hired inexperienced drivers], they get put out of service for 10 hours at a scale, due to a logging error, and they have some very hot freight onboard, that isn't going to get delivered on time?
Which means the customer won't pay for the load, and the carrier may well fine the driver too....:eek:
 

Wolfeman68

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
agreed, RLENT. points taken.

and yes, those rates are on the home, which is paid for. personal assets exceed price of home, so although the risk of losing home is real, in actuality quite small.

we are trying to get best rate possible, obviously.

with your point on NOT knowing what we DONT know, and such, couldn't we get one used truck, as you suggest, and 'learn the ropes'? i know there are thousands of things to learn, but can't they be learned?

as we see it, there are two worst case scenarios (and we HAVE at least considered them)--1) the truck has multiple expensive breakdowns, including the need for engine overhaul; 2) we have driver problems and the truck sits there. with 1), we are out at most what, $20-25k? (I Don't know!), and then we restart, and 2) the truck sits, and we sell the truck for a loss. Either way, aren't we only looking at a relatively small loss? is there a scenario whereby we could lose 50, 100K on a 70K truck? I don't know. . .that is why I am here.

Mark,

Yes, you could actually lose 50 to 100K or more. I've read this whole thread, and what Dave and Greg and others have told you is strong advice to be considered. I have a small fleet of trucks and over and above the hassles you have with drivers, repairs, etc. you have to be aware of your exposure should your truck have an accident, damaged cargo, or is under load and breaks down.

When you contract with a carrier, they will hand you a lease to be signed. Take that lease to an attorney familiar with the transportation industry before you sign it. He will be able to advise you of your liability. If your truck has an accident with injuries, you will be sued as the owner of the truck whether the drivers were at fault or not. Don't count on the carrier's insurance to cover you completely. Personal injury attorneys will go after everything.

One of the reasons I don't have reefers is the possibility of cargo damage or loss. Admittedly, I have no personal knowledge of how it works, so maybe others can post how it does.

Say for example your truck is loaded with drugs that have to be kept at a constant temp. and your reefer unit breaks down. The printout from your unit that you have to present to the consignee shows that the box temp went above the required degrees and the drugs are now useless and they refuse to accept the delivery. What happens now? What is YOUR liability since it was YOUR unit? Does the carrier's cargo liability cover it? Who pays for the disposal of the useless drugs? I know that you have to have the reefer unit tested and certified at certain intervals, but you can never be sure it won't fail. What if the truck breaks down and the load has to be rescued? Are you responsible for the cost?

My point here is that over and above the problems previously mentioned in this thread there is a big ugly monster lurking out there that a lot of owners don't prepare for or trust others to protect them from it.

Spend the money and get your own answers from legal and insurance experts. The catch phrase that applies to this industry is expect the best, but prepare for the worst.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
 
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