Pilot Rewards Card and DOT Inspections

[scottm4211]

Was just explaining why I care about something that will probably never happen to me, is all - if it happens to someone else, I could be next. And even if it never happens to me, it's wrong, and I care.

Does that make you a "cowboy" Cheri?

 

[cheri1122]

Does that make you a "cowboy" Cheri?

I hope not - the one time I tried to twirl a lasso, I nearly hung myself before getting both feet tangled in the durn rope & falling flatsmack on my face.

 

[Moot]

If you are not required by law to carry a Pilot Rewards then you are not required to show it. If an Iowa cop asks to see your Pilots Reward Card politely decline or say you don't have one. If you carry your Pilot Rewards Card on a lanyard around your neck with your purple and teal ID badge, coke spoon and roach clip, then you are inviting trouble.

If you are running solo and afraid to leave the sleeper to take a leak use line 1 for your entire off.

Remember that the signature is your certification and you have to back it up.

Yeah, so why not sign the day's log at the end of the day when you tally up all lines?

"No need to complicate the simple". DaveKC

 

[AMonger]

If you are running solo and afraid to leave the sleeper to take a leak use line 1 for your entire off.

Lots of people say you can't do that. I always did.

Yeah, so why not sign the day's log at the end of the day when you tally up all lines?

There are people who sign blank checks? I mean, people not in Canada? I couldn't believe that's how we had to do it when running in Canada, but surely nobody does that down here...?

 

[AMonger]

I think many of you miss a very important point;

Remember that the signature is your certification and you have to back it up.

There is no warrant needed for them to prove otherwise and they can violate you for what you can't prove.

No different than a traffic ticket, really. The cop says you made an illegal right turn or didn't come to a complete stop, the judge is going to take his word for it. That's immoral and unethical, but it's the way it works. You can go to court and fight it, just like a logbook violation, but the deck is stacked.

I think this is part of the problem of the adversarial relationship that many in this industry have created, the cowboy mentality that they don't have to follow certain rules and regulations.

No, that's not it at all. It's that Americans are accustomed to the presumption of innocence and the need for the state to prove their case. It's hard to adjust that it's not set up that way in this case.

 

[AMonger]

Greg said:

You know you are all missing the point.

You give up some of those rights to run as you wish when you get that CDL and go through the process of being inspected.

Kind of like how you said the military gave up their rights? You were quite positive about that, as I recall, yet it turned out otherwise. Now, that barb having been slung, you are largely correct here, at least, on the books, which is what is going to be enforced.

It is like you not signing the logs or even keeping the logs. The log is a tool for them, the enemy of trucking, to keep tabs on your activity and it is their right to ask to see that log.

No argument.

Here is another way of looking at it. You get a red light in a weigh station, when you get ready to park a guy comes out and says "park over there and bring in your paper work and your logs".

Does he mean the logs of last month or last year?

NO he means your past seven days.

If you can't produce them then is there a recourse he can take?

Yes he issues you a violation.

And maybe puts you out of service for 10 hours.

It is not the same as an illegal left turn, you are being audited for the operation of the vehicle under the state and federal laws and you have an obligation to be honest and answer their questions about that operation - not say no.

A legal obligation that will result in some penalties if you don't, like the ones above--citations and being OOS. However, the right to remain silent still exists. You may not face criminal penalties, but you'll be OOS if you don't produce what he wants.

Say you can produce the logs and he looks at the activity of the previous two days and wonders about the ten hours off, then no pre-trip and then drive time for 11 hours but doesn't see a fuel stop in it. He looks and sees you drove for the past four days but not once there was a fuel stop but you put on 2300 miles. He glances out at your truck and you have two 100 gallon tanks on it.

So can he ask you what about the fuel?

I feel he can, it is a legitimate question thats not outside of the realm of his authority and the question may be an important one to show some other issues with the logs.

Say you say to the guy "well that's none of your business, I fuel when I want!"

So can't he ask you what proof you have to prove you were in the sleeper, or where you fueled?

Of course he can. And if you don't want to be put OOS, you'll produce what he wants to satisfy him that you were where you say you were, and where you fueled. Don't turn them over if you don't want. But then you'll be OOS.

See the problem is you seem to view this as an adversarial issue and it isn't, it is a legal one. Again the right of a presumption of innocents

(sic)

has zero to do with it because you have a responsibility to be truthful both during an inspection and when you sign your logs.

The presumption of innocence has everything to do with it, HOWEVER, you've provided him with evidence already--the logbook--and the logbook might indicate that you've driven illegally. If you show that you've driven 3000 miles without having logged a fuel stop, you've already testified against yourself that you've falsified your logs. Now, requiring you to testify against yourself is illegal and unlawful, but if we were to put an end to everything the government does that's illegal, well, what would the country look like? Better, but much, much different.

Do I have to show him my Pilot card or my fuel receipts? No. But if there's some doubt as to my whereabouts and he's ready to put me OOS, it's in my best interests.

 

[greg334]

Greg said:

Kind of like how you said the military gave up their rights? You were quite positive about that, as I recall, yet it turned out otherwise. Now that barb having been slung, you are largely correct here, at least, on the books, which is what is going to be enforced.

Actually I seem to be right about the military thing too. I said you give up some rights under the military, and other seem to agree with that. The thing you miss about that is you also gain a very important right that a citizen doesn't have - direct judgment by ones true peers.

No argument.

Well that was said in a sarcastic way.

And maybe puts you out of service for 10 hours.

True to a point, you can also be put out of service more than 10 hours if you can't produce accurate logs. Different states have different laws and they do not have to follow the feds but can have stricter laws.

A legal obligation that will result in some penalties if you don't, like the ones above--citations and being OOS. However, the right to remain silent still exists. You may not face criminal penalties, but you'll be OOS if you don't produce what he wants.

The right to remain silent has nothing to do with the subject of inspections, you are not being Mirandized, you are not in custody, you are not being charged with a crime - you are dealing with a regulated activity that is consititutionaly mandated as part of the federal government's role and their regulations don't trump the rights you have but those rights are limited when participating within that activity. The right to remain silent isn't even a consideration when you have to fulfill your responsibility as a licensed and regulated driver and part of that is to maintain a legal standard set by both the state and the federal government. It is the same as refusing to take a drug test, the burden is on you, not the carrier or the guy holding the pee cup.

Of course he can. And if you don't want to be put OOS, you'll produce what he wants to satisfy him that you were where you say you were, and where you fueled. Don't turn them over if you don't want. But then you'll be OOS.

Well see there is a glimmer of hope.

Say you say to the guy "well that's none of your business, I fuel when I want!"

(sic)

The presumption of innocence isn't quite applicable because it's not a criminal matter, but a regulatory one. If it were a criminal matter, the presumption of innocence would definitely apply. But being that it involves guys with badges, citations, penalties of a sort, it looks like a criminal matter and and people resent losing the presumption of innocence.

Do I have to show him my Pilot card or my fuel receipts? No. But if there's some doubt as to my whereabouts and he's ready to put me OOS, it's in my best interests.

BUT see here is the thing, I agree with all of that but the problem isn't really with the guys with the badges or the fuel receipts, it is the attitude that many have that they don't have to do this or that but are free to do what they want. We as an industry let things go but keeping two log books hurts us, and so does screwing with the guy in the weigh station. When they become an enemy by the actions of others, we all suffer. The problem is we are regulated, not as bad in some respects as we were but bad in others.

Thanks for posting the deleted post. I deleted it because of some idiot and their email - not you.

 

[cheri1122]

If you are not required by law to carry a Pilot Rewards then you are not required to show it. If an Iowa cop asks to see your Pilots Reward Card politely decline or say you don't have one. If you carry your Pilot Rewards Card on a lanyard around your neck with your purple and teal ID badge, coke spoon and roach clip, then you are inviting trouble.

If you are running solo and afraid to leave the sleeper to take a leak use line 1 for your entire off.



Yeah, so why not sign the day's log at the end of the day when you tally up all lines?

"No need to complicate the simple". DaveKC

Moot's advice makes the most sense to me: I'm not legally required to have a driver reward card, therefore not legally required to produce one, if asked.
Fuel receipts are another story, and those I would produce upon request.
Problem solved.

 

[AMonger]

Actually I seem to be right about the military thing too. I said you give up some rights under the military, and other seem to agree with that. The thing you miss about that is you also gain a very important right that a citizen doesn't have - direct judgment by ones true peers.

I posted a reply in the other thread showing that military members have the benefit of 100% of the Bill of Rights, but some are exercised slightly different in time, place, and manner.

Well that was said in a sarcastic way.

Actually, it wasn't.

The right to remain silent has nothing to do with the subject of inspections, you are not being Mirandized, you are not in custody, you are not being charged with a crime - you are dealing with a regulated activity that is consititutionaly mandated as part of the federal government's role and their regulations don't trump the rights you have but those rights are limited when participating within that activity. The right to remain silent isn't even a consideration when you have to fulfill your responsibility as a licensed and regulated driver and part of that is to maintain a legal standard set by both the state and the federal government. It is the same as refusing to take a drug test, the burden is on you, not the carrier or the guy holding the pee cup.

That was kind of my contention before I thought about it some more. But I remembered something after I posted--that you've already filled out a log, so you've actually already testified against yourself. So when they question you about an irregularity in your log, it's not a matter of presumption of innocence because you've already given them evidence that you're guilty. The date and signature make it a confession, legally.

On a related note, a friend of mine was trying to become a cop. He was applying with some agency in Wyoming. The application was long. One question was "Have you ever been arrested for a sex offense against a minor?" The next question was, "Have you ever committed a sex offense against a minor but not been caught?" Thinking this odd, he asked a lawyer what would happen if he answered Yes. The lawyer asked, "Is there a signature on it? Is it dated? Then it's a confession."

Same with our logbooks--legal documents that can be used against us.