Pilot Rewards Card and DOT Inspections

[greg334]

It's not scamming, I didn't add that I'm paying for the fuel. The driver doesn't have the card and I split the points with him by buying him food off the card. The 200 gallons don't fit in my truck but it does his. The card agreement does not say I have to be the driver of the truck. It is the same as giving a shower away.

The difference is simple, the card use is not a federal/state regulated activity and I am not signing anything that says I was the one who was driving which if you guys really want a way out, think about this ... the driver doesn't have to fuel the truck or pay for it - hence doesn't have to have a receipt. BUT logs are different because you are attaching your signature to the log and telling everyone that "THIS IS ACCURATE BEYOND A DOUBT" not signing it and saying "THIS MAY NOT BE ACCURATE, LET ME EXPLAIN".

 

[bluejaybee]

It's not scamming, I didn't add that I'm paying for the fuel. The driver doesn't have the card and I split the points with him by buying him food off the card. The 200 gallons don't fit in my truck but it does his. The card agreement does not say I have to be the driver of the truck. It is the same as giving a shower away.

The difference is simple, the card use is not a federal/state regulated activity and I am not signing anything that says I was the one who was driving which if you guys really want a way out, think about this ... the driver doesn't have to fuel the truck or pay for it - hence doesn't have to have a receipt. BUT logs are different because you are attaching your signature to the log and telling everyone that "THIS IS ACCURATE BEYOND A DOUBT" not signing it and saying "THIS MAY NOT BE ACCURATE, LET ME EXPLAIN".

Once again

 

[cheri1122]

Cheri,
I think you don't know this but we are exactly on the same page.

Not if you have no problem with being considered guilty of a violation of the law with zero probable cause, we're not.
Even if LEOs have the legal right to do it, [an unresolved question, as I've seen no requirement in the FMCSA regs covering log documentation], the issue is to ensure safety
by getting and keeping overly fatigued drivers off the road. A LEO who suspects a driver is unfit has reason to look further, but lacking any reason, it's simply harassment.
As I said before, if an LEO were to ask for fuel receipts to verify my log, I'd have them, and they would match what the log says - but my concern is why they ask. With probable cause, it's good enforcement, but without, it's no different than being asked to take a drug or alcohol test to prove I'm not in violation.

 

[AMonger]

Why? I have fuel receipts, BOLs from previous trips and other documentation on my clip board when I go in with paperwork. Documentation gives you credibility. Using rewards cards for documentation isn't something I saw coming in terms of enforcement, but it's not a shock. Lots of drivers falsify, lots of them. The DOT is just trying win a few more battles in that war.

I'm pretty sure there's a happy medium here. It's reasonable and prudent to have some documentation to back up your log, but that doesn't mean it's prudent or required to help incriminate yourself by volunteering all your paperwork.

No, the burden is not on the driver from the get-go to prove his logbook is correct. The burden is on the DOT to show that he couldn't have done what he claims he did. And if they're going to make that claim, that's the time to produce your paperwork.

I suppose the same could be said of the Pilot or other cards; I'd never volunteer it, and if he were to ask, the answer will be no. I'd only produce it if I felt it were to my advantage, not his.

 

[highway star]

I'm pretty sure there's a happy medium here. It's reasonable and prudent to have some documentation to back up your log, but that doesn't mean it's prudent or required to help incriminate yourself by volunteering all your paperwork.

How would I be incriminating myself? I believe it's entirely prudent to be prepared to show I'm on the up and up. I've never been asked for a fuel receipt, but last week I was asked to show my BOL for the load I took into Florida when I went through the Agriculture station on the way out. I thought that was kinda weird...

 

[AMonger]

Let's go over it again.

My point rests on the issue of falsifying a log as a serious issue. When you are inspected, there is a need to have some evidence to prove what you put on the log is factual and not made up. The assumption that the officer can make is that the log is incorrect but would need to determine if it is either intentional or accidental.

IT comes DOWN to not being able to prove what you did is in fact what you signed off as doing on the LOG in the first place.

Put another way, could your position be restated as, "It would be prudent, if you know what's good for you, to have documentation to back up your claims, otherwise you risk being put out of service on the officer's suspicion."?

Or, are you saying, "It's a driver's legal responsibility to carry receipts to show at the demand of the DOT."

The way you put it at first sounds like the latter, but now it's sounding like the former.

 

[AMonger]

Thank you EO nations ,as i am now the proud owner of 2 pilots rewards card ,2 loves cards and the rest to follow .
one for use ,and one for the IA officers to revue ,if they wish to ,as i am expected to cross the buckeye state at least twice this week .
when they are going to inspect 'their card' i am going to appear as confused as the officer in question ...

Wouldn't that be detrimental? If you show you fueled and you put it on your original card and then show the DOT your new card, you'd be giving him documentation that does NOT back up your logbook. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not give him a card? If you're going to give him a card, it should be one that confirms what you wrote down.

 

[nightcreacher]

Why do so many of you worry about stuff that may never happen,and if your doing your job right,won't have any problems.In all the miles Ive driven the last 27 years in expediting,including the years in the beginnning that I had an invisible co-driver,I've had many DOT checks,but only one time I've had an officer ask for any receipts,and that was over an over length issue in Vermont,back in 2003.As long as you present a neat loooking log book,and give the officer respect for doing his job,you won't have ant problems.

 

[Turtle]

...and once over a mis-spelled city (which I asked the guy to spell Mississippi and he couldn't so it was a moot point).

em... eye... crooked-letter crooked-letter eye... crooked-letter crooked-letter eye... humpback-humpback eye

em... eye... ess-ess-eye-ess-ess-eye-pее-pее-eye

Didn't everybody learn one or the other in about the second grade?

 

[greg334]

Actually both of you, I prefer not to worry about anything the DOT can do to me. BUT it is funny when you shake the tree to see who speaks up.

 

[cheri1122]

Why do so many of you worry about stuff that may never happen,and if your doing your job right,won't have any problems.In all the miles Ive driven the last 27 years in expediting,including the years in the beginnning that I had an invisible co-driver,I've had many DOT checks,but only one time I've had an officer ask for any receipts,and that was over an over length issue in Vermont,back in 2003.As long as you present a neat loooking log book,and give the officer respect for doing his job,you won't have ant problems.

Steve: we worry about it because in many states, the focus has changed from ensuring safety to generating revenue, however it can be done. And because sometimes, [as in the Minnesota 'fatigue indicators'] the LEOs are operating outside the law to do it.
"For evil to triumph" ring any bells? Would you have told non Jews in Germany to relax, nobody would bother them? Ok, maybe that's a little extreme, but the point is that when we don't speak up, people's rights get trampled. Like you, I haven't experienced it, but who's to say I [or you] won't be next? And if checking a driver's reward card is ok, why not their debit and credit cards? How far can the government go in detaining and investigating persons they have no reasonable cause to suspect have broken any laws?

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I thought they were able to ask for something visible. It may be that they're able to ASK for the card; but you're not obligated to give it to them.

I had this conversation with Highway tonight. My opinion was to tell the LEO to get a warrant while I call OOIDA. Highway stated it would screw up an otherwise perfect inspection. While I can agree with him to a point - where does it stop? Like someone said, with the debit card?

If they REALLY want to get our receipt info, why haven't they mandated times be put on receipts? Again, I doubt it would fly in court. What it comes down to is that LEOs continue to intimidate us into allowing them to access things the courts would not.

 

[AMonger]

I thought they were able to ask for something visible. It may be that they're able to ASK for the card; but you're not obligated to give it to them.

I had this conversation with Highway tonight. My opinion was to tell the LEO to get a warrant while I call OOIDA. Highway stated it would screw up an otherwise perfect inspection. While I can agree with him to a point - where does it stop? Like someone said, with the debit card?

If they REALLY want to get our receipt info, why haven't they mandated times be put on receipts? Again, I doubt it would fly in court. What it comes down to is that LEOs continue to intimidate us into allowing them to access things the courts would not.

You probably didn't need to mention anything about a warrant or OOIDA. A simple No in a civil tone of voice would probably do it, if it was for the card, anyway. I don't know about the receipts, but I know as sure as I'm typing that you don't have to give them any loyalty card.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

You probably didn't need to mention anything about a warrant or OOIDA. A simple No in a civil tone of voice would probably do it, if it was for the card, anyway. I don't know about the receipts, but I know as sure as I'm typing that you don't have to give them any loyalty card.

Well duh. I meant after telling them 'no'.

 

[Scuba]

Evidence to back up your claim. Say I said I was in the sleeper for that 11 hours before my run and marked it in the sleeper but really got out of the sleeper to get something to eat, watch some TV and I also had receipts that showed me in the restaurant at the same time that I marked me being in the sleeper and say that the inspector saw those receipts. It is proof I violated the sleeper rule and falsified my log. Fueling is the same thing, if I said I fueled at 1200 but actually fueled at 1315, and the receipts proved the correct time, then that is a falsifying the log.

The burden is on me, the driver to prove that the log is correct and legal.

Well i just read every line on my fuel ticket from Pilot and no where in it is there a time stamp just the date that i fueled. Also it isn't my job to prove i am not lying it is the cops job to prove it if he can. The way your saying it is that you must prove your Innocent before you are even charged with an infraction. And anyone that keeps store receipts where a cop can get to them is foolish an envelope that is addressed and stamped is where you keep those and if pulled over and you have something to hide seal it period they can't open it. That said no i don't do that because i only keep receipts that can be used for tax purposes.

 

[AMonger]

Well duh. I meant after telling them 'no'.

Wait, he asked for it, you said no, and he insisted? And then that's where the warrant talk came in?

Now it's getting weird, when you tell him he can't have the card and he insists.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Wait, he asked for it, you said no, and he insisted? And then that's where the warrant talk came in?

Now it's getting weird, when you tell him he can't have the card and he insists.

No... I was speaking in the hypothetical. But in reality, I'd probably shrivel up and obey like any other good peon of society.

 

[Slo-Ride]

Well i just read every line on my fuel ticket from Pilot and no where in it is there a time stamp just the date that i fueled.

True on the fuel ticket,,no time stamp. Many times I have forgot to log the fuel stop and forgot what time I did it. All it takes is quick call to the fuel card (in my case comdata) and they will give all info needed and asked without verifying anything,,just ask..I keep my fuel card, fuel receipts and reward cards right with my log book and never had a Officer Q anything. But now I am going to rethink this and store em separate. Not to hide anything,,,just to avoid whats being talked about here.

 

[greg334]

I think many of you miss a very important point;

Remember that the signature is your certification and you have to back it up.

There is no warrant needed for them to prove otherwise and they can violate you for what you can't prove. There can be an assumption made you are lying and you have to prove otherwise but the fact remains, they are in control when they are doing their inspection and as unfair as you feel it is, you agreed to some freedom to operated will be given up - like no limitations on drive time.

I think this is part of the problem of the adversarial relationship that many in this industry have created, the cowboy mentality that they don't have to follow certain rules and regulations.

As far as the Jews and Germany, what?!?

 

[cheri1122]

I think many of you miss a very important point;

Remember that the signature is your certification and you have to back it up.
Ok, but the question is under what circumstances it has to be proven. Our entire legal system is based upon the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty, freedom from unreasonable search & seizure, and others that come into play, like the right to remain secure in our persons & effects. LEOs don't have the right to detain and question people without reason, and must have probable cause to search for evidence of wrongdoing - which is what asking to see a driver's reward card is, IMO. Asking for anything beyond log, license, permits, BOL [if loaded], insurance, and medical form is an unreasonable search, if not provoked by a reasonable suspicion that a law has been broken.


There is no warrant needed for them to prove otherwise and they can violate you for what you can't prove. There can be an assumption made you are lying and you have to prove otherwise but the fact remains, they are in control when they are doing their inspection and as unfair as you feel it is, you agreed to some freedom to operated will be given up - like no limitations on drive time.
Of course they don't need a warrant, and can search if they wish - but do they not need reasonable suspicion, or probable cause? I think they do, because the FMCSA regs do not require receipts as a routine part of any inspection.

I think this is part of the problem of the adversarial relationship that many in this industry have created, the cowboy mentality that they don't have to follow certain rules and regulations.
In this particular case, the 'cowboy mentality' is on the part of the LEOs who don't think they have to follow the rules. If you can cite any rule or regulation that allows them to request a driver's reward card, please share it.

As far as the Jews and Germany, what?!?

Was just explaining why I care about something that will probably never happen to me, is all - if it happens to someone else, I could be next. And even if it never happens to me, it's wrong, and I care.