Pilot Rewards Card and DOT Inspections

[cheri1122]

I'd sure like to read the cases Ms Greene refers to, when she "claims the courts have upheld" the practice. Who knows what the courts actually said?

 

[bluejaybee]

I'd sure like to read the cases Ms Greene refers to, when she "claims the courts have upheld" the practice. Who knows what the courts actually said?

I'm going with the moose on this one. Sounds like a bunch of CB jibber. Some reporters will report heresay also. But, if you gave the DOT your Payback Card, well, then, "Here's your sign"!!!

 

[greg334]

Wrong you have no burden of proof. They must prove you logs are wrong. A DOT audit is something else. In an office enviroment the DOT can ask a carrier for supporting documents, toll receipts, fuel purchases, ect. Anything you give them voluntary can and will be used against you. Give them your drivers license, medical card, log book, registration, and insurance info, nothing else. At that point you don't need to even talk any further.

So I wonder, are you a lawyer?

It seems I get the opposite advice from legal professionals. They explained that the signature applied to the log shifts the burden onto me and they can ask me to prove what I put down there.

 

[scottm4211]

So I wonder, are you a lawyer?

It seems I get the opposite advice from legal professionals. They explained that the signature applied to the log shifts the burden onto me and they can ask me to prove what I put down there.

Short of having a 10 hr video of you sleeping in a truck how can you prove you were in the sleeper?

 

[greg334]

Short of having a 10 hr video of you sleeping in a truck how can you prove you were in the sleeper?

My point rests on the issue of falsifying a log as a serious issue and it comes to not being able to prove what you did is in fact what you signed off as doing.

I feel the important point is that you may not have to "prove" you did or didn't do something at the time you are questioned but the problem is you are not the guy who is asking about your fuel or your break and not the guy with the ticket book or the ability to put you out of service.

 

[geo]

i use to have ez pass after i saw one of the law and order shows and with a court order what they could do to see where some one had been
so i gave ez pass back
so when you log you need to keep it up to date when you stop bring it up to date at that time


i've hread of people keeping 2 or 3 log books, i had a hard time with one let alone 2 or more

 

[moose]

With the addition of a BOL to documentation required, I agree.
If checking your rewards card is ok, what's next? Your debit & credit cards, [in case you made a withdrawal while logged in the sleeper]? Your cell phone, to make sure no texts were sent while logged as driving?.

I have to admit ,that this exact issue was one of the rezones i joined Expedite to begin with .
at that time ,i was listening to XM/OOIDA/The Trucker mag ,& all that in between ,and wanted to get a truck with a self sustain sleeper where they can't touch my logs and ask those stupid questions .
one day, the day will come where they will Jail us in the sleeper ,with the doors ,windows & Cpack connecting to the QC . and out law all electronic communications.
i haven't listen to XM for over a year now ,and my blood pressure is back to normal ...(well not exactly ,i still can't drink doing this line of work...)

 

[cheri1122]

My point rests on the issue of falsifying a log as a serious issue and it comes to not being able to prove what you did is in fact what you signed off as doing.

I feel the important point is that you may not have to "prove" you did or didn't do something at the time you are questioned but the problem is you are not the guy who is asking about your fuel or your break and not the guy with the ticket book or the ability to put you out of service.

Please take some deep breaths & try to restate that. The question was legitimate, but your answer is incomprehensible.
Falsifying logs [Federal documents] is a serious issue - but without reasonable suspicion, LEOs are going too far in the 'gotcha!' pursuit, when they ask to see a driver's reward card. The original article doesn't mention any reasonable suspicion [that logs are falsified], so it sounds as if asking to see the cards is a routine matter for the Iowa troopers.

 

[moose]

i use to have ez pass after i saw one of the law and order shows and with a court order what they could do to see where some one had been
so i gave ez pass back

U are absolutely correct (except from the part of getting your decisions base on a TV show,but we all do that)
when i asked PrePass that same question ,a few months ago ,(and each & every one of you can do the same) ,they told me that it is a remote stand alone system .which mean the weigh stations only have the ability to 'transmit' and the data is collected at the pre-pass servers .
that info is protected by law ,and available for the paying costumer.(like when you get your monthly bill and they tell you how rich you become by using PP).
HOWEVER ,incase a court order is sapena specific info ,PrePass will have to provide that info to the investigating officer .
When it comes to EZPass ,well all toll plaza's are protected by video surveillance ,and in a case of a crime (like the Law&order)that info. is readily available . and we are all criminals by the logbook until prove otherwise ...or are we...

 

[xiggi]

I'm not sure what is legal and what isn't for enforcement people to do but sounds from what I read and listen to they are always pushing the envelope. It does seem like many times when the courts become involved it all boils down to the old driving is a privilege not a right thing so they have much more leeway in what they do get away with.

I heard just the other day on Landline or some show that MN is starting the whole fatigued driver push again (supposedly without the checklist, wink, wink). The judge hasn't even ruled on the case and they have decided to push the issue again.

 

[greg334]

Please take some deep breaths & try to restate that. The question was legitimate, but your answer is incomprehensible.

Let's go over it again.

My point rests on the issue of falsifying a log as a serious issue. When you are inspected, there is a need to have some evidence to prove what you put on the log is factual and not made up. The assumption that the officer can make is that the log is incorrect but would need to determine if it is either intentional or accidental.

IT comes DOWN to not being able to prove what you did is in fact what you signed off as doing on the LOG in the first place.

For example, the sleeper time from EVERY person who I have asked this question; "what is the latitude of a driver when taking the sleeper berth line?" has answered to stay in the sleeper and then almost everyone would add "not to go take a P*ss, not to go get lunch, not to go sit outside and talk to others but to be in the sleeper and resting".

I have been questioned about this, two days in the sleeper, with the A/C running and it is 110 outside, the officer asked me how did I pee and I said I have a toilet in the sleeper - want to see.

Falsifying logs [Federal documents] is a serious issue - but without reasonable suspicion, LEOs are going too far in the 'gotcha!' pursuit, when they ask to see a driver's reward card. The original article doesn't mention any reasonable suspicion [that logs are falsified], so it sounds as if asking to see the cards is a routine matter for the Iowa troopers.

The original article mentioned the lack of fuel receipts to prove that the driver actually fueled, again by signing that log and with no receipts, it can be and has been considered falsified. The driver is at fault, knowing that he can get as many copies as he wants and he 'has to' send in copies to the carrier, he didn't do his job as far as I can see.

Another point that can be made that was brought up was on the Carrier Audit. It doesn't apply because the carrier isn't being inspected, the driver is. The officer has a limited window of time to do the inspection and then he has to determine the driver's ability to drive safely and legally. THIS is part of the process they have to deal with and by saying "I won't answer any questions or "here is my log ... deal with it" puts the burden on the driver to be more professional then the officer to be nice.

The best thing to do is be diligent in keeping up with things, keep receipts, play legal and form good habits.

The funny thing is, a lot of people seem to have issues with LEOs for some reason, maybe bad attitudes have a lot to do with it on both sides. When you are confronted with an prick of an officer, like the guy who did my inspection in Ohio, it is best to be nice and deal with his crap without the attitude. A lot of 'truckers' are unprofessional as it is, some display a rather adversarial arrogant attitude to begin with (and drive that way) so I understand why some officers have such crappy attitudes. They have the power to mess with you in other ways.

 

[bluejaybee]

If you are being questioned about your log book, something has already been seen to make officer suspect a false log. An honest mistake can make him wonder about it. If that is the case, receipts would be handy. But if you are standing there with a false log, the last thing you want is receipts. I have never been asked to prove my log one way or the other. I go to extremes to not have any receipts in my possesion. My fuel reciepts can be printed off my fuel card account at home. Everything else I buy, I put on bank card.

I don't know what the big deal is over the sleeper thing. If I have to get out of bed and go inside to use rest room, there's no way I am going to show that on my log. I never seen so many people who claim to do everything by the book. I would have to see it done before I believe all of you expedite with out violating some rule at some point. If you do, then give yourself a star by your name. I try to abide by all the rules, but there comes a point (more often than not) that I have to break some to get my job done. And most of the expediters I have talked to on the road, say the same thing.

I have looked and I can't find where it says that we are to have receipts for anything. Can anyone tell me where in the regulations it states that we do?

 

[highway star]

I go to extremes to not have any receipts in my possesion.

Why? I have fuel receipts, BOLs from previous trips and other documentation on my clip board when I go in with paperwork. Documentation gives you credibility. Using rewards cards for documentation isn't something I saw coming in terms of enforcement, but it's not a shock. Lots of drivers falsify, lots of them. The DOT is just trying win a few more battles in that war.

 

[moose]

Thank you EO nations ,as i am now the proud owner of 2 pilots rewards card ,2 loves cards and the rest to follow .
one for use ,and one for the IA officers to revue ,if they wish to ,as i am expected to cross the buckeye state at least twice this week .
when they are going to inspect 'their card' i am going to appear as confused as the officer in question ...

 

[xiggi]

Thank you EO nations ,as i am now the proud owner of 2 pilots rewards card ,2 loves cards and the rest to follow .
one for use ,and one for the IA officers to revue ,if they wish to ,as i am expected to cross the buckeye state at least twice this week .
when they are going to inspect 'their card' i am going to appear as confused as the officer in question ...

The story was about Iowa you will need to go a little west from the Buckeye state. When you start seeing Hawkeyes your there.

 

[bluejaybee]

Why? I have fuel receipts, BOLs from previous trips and other documentation on my clip board when I go in with paperwork. Documentation gives you credibility. Using rewards cards for documentation isn't something I saw coming in terms of enforcement, but it's not a shock. Lots of drivers falsify, lots of them. The DOT is just trying win a few more battles in that war.

Why? I guess you are one of the do it by the book expediters. Nothing wrong with that if it works for you. I don't really falsify (my opinion), I adjust sometimes! Therefore, it is best I not have any receipts. I am not sitting here denying that I haven't ever done it. Or trying to make everyone think I only run by the book. I have been questioned about my log book before and I give them an answer. They have never, ever asked for a receipt. I am not looking for credibility, just trying to get out with out a violation.

 

[greg334]

I never seen so many people who claim to do everything by the book. I would have to see it done before I believe all of you expedite with out violating some rule at some point. If you do, then give yourself a star by your name. I try to abide by all the rules, but there comes a point (more often than not) that I have to break some to get my job done. And most of the expediters I have talked to on the road, say the same thing.

If someone has to break the simple rules of driving - they don't need to be on the road.

Adjustments are not what I am talking but the out and out lying to make a buck is where the problem is, and a lot of people can't understand logging, just seem not to get the idea that it is better to say no than to know you may get caught.

This isn't the world of "got to take it or else" expediting, it is getting a job done safely and legally.

There is a good example about drive times and fueling that I can't give but experienced drivers know how the game is played, a few who operate more in a 24 hour period know how to move fuel over from the fat side of the sleeper reset to help with the lean side of driving hours which is where a lot of people can get caught and the need to produce a fuel receipt (I know that is cryptic but can't explain it more than that - you'll have to figure it out). That is falsifying the log.

By the way, I have had others use my fuel card to get points on the card. I can't put in 200 gallons but I had a few fill-ups with 200 gallons on the card.

 

[cheri1122]

Greg: I guess my opinion differs from yours in that any LEO who requests further documentation of a log should have reasonable suspicion or probable cause, same as a drug screen and/or breathalyzer. A driver who appears fatigued [bloodshot eyes, slovenly grooming, irritable attitude, delayed response to questions] merits a closer look, but without any reason to look further, asking for a driver's reward card constitutes harassment, IMO.
Fuel receipts, I'll hand over, and guarantee they match my log, but there should be some reason for the LEO to believe otherwise, before he asks for them. [Which none ever have, so far.]

 

[greg334]

Cheri,
I think you don't know this but we are exactly on the same page.

It comes down to this - are you (not you personally) that d*mn lazy not to keep records of your ventures and sloppy logs or are you professional enough to keep good logs where you can verify almost everything that is on that log?

It isn't whether or not the guy has probable cause to invoke a search (remember we are regulated and that signature is a certification), he could be looking for a response, or an indication that there is something else OR he could do this as a routine. NOT trying to justify the actions of those who are a**holes but those who I know have certain habits (which are within their prerogative) that they use as an investigation tool and more or less will let people slide if something looks and sounds accidental - like mis-marking the start time or forgetting to check off the pre-trip box.

OUT OF a large number of inspections, I have been questioned twice, once over the sleeper thing (which included the lecture of what is and is not permissible) and once over a mis-spelled city (which I asked the guy to spell Mississippi and he couldn't so it was a moot point).

I feel that one of the biggest issues we have in this industry are the a**holes who have the arrogance to cause problems and make it harder for all of us. This is one issue that seems to be always cropping up and some make it out like they are picked on because they are 'truckers'. I also think that the idea behind EOBRs is a good one to combat this issue.

 

[bluejaybee]

If someone has to break the simple rules of driving - they don't need to be on the road.

Adjustments are not what I am talking but the out and out lying to make a buck is where the problem is, and a lot of people can't understand logging, just seem not to get the idea that it is better to say no than to know you may get caught.

This isn't the world of "got to take it or else" expediting, it is getting a job done safely and legally.

There is a good example about drive times and fueling that I can't give but experienced drivers know how the game is played, a few who operate more in a 24 hour period know how to move fuel over from the fat side of the sleeper reset to help with the lean side of driving hours which is where a lot of people can get caught and the need to produce a fuel receipt (I know that is cryptic but can't explain it more than that - you'll have to figure it out). That is falsifying the log.

By the way, I have had others use my fuel card to get points on the card. I can't put in 200 gallons but I had a few fill-ups with 200 gallons on the card.

Oh! I see! Double standard type you are. Falsifying logs is illegal, but scamming the fuel card out of unearned points is O.K.?

I am not judging you, but there it is in print for all to make a conclusion.