Ok Everyone, LET ME HAVE IT! Poor it on hard!

greg334

Veteran Expediter
well here is a rather odd two questions;

We have Canadian drivers operating here in the states, does a Canadian driver who gets inspected here and violations get CSA 2010 points that count against their Canadian carrier even though the Canadian carrier does not have a US DOT authority?

Does a Canadian inspection and violations by a US driver count on your CSA 2010 score?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I would not view the company safety person as a spy, but as a friend who can help both you and the carrier maintain a good CSA rating which will lead to less inspections and less interuption of your daily routine.

I can choose my friends. I can even make friends in the safety department and am inclined to do so if they operate openly and fairly. Spies come uninvited.

I guess the bottom line, which has also been said many times before but seems very appropriate at this moment, if you don't want 100 CSA point drivers affecting you or your carrier, but resent being "spied" upon, then go and get your own authority and then you and only you will be responsible for your own actions.

Your argument is non sequiter (the inference does not follow from the premise). There is nothing in the 100+ CSA point driver's account to suggest that her carrier putting a spy on the road would have made a difference.

First, the safety official would have to see the truck at the right time to detect some of the violations. The chances of that are slim given the number of trucks in the fleet and the number of states the trucks are in.

Second, the CSA points that could have been avoided, could have been avoided if the driver would have had the knowledge and motivation to detect truck defects and the good judgment to refuse the truck the moment she saw it. No safety person in the field could prevent such a lapse because no safety person in the field will be on scene when a new driver starts with a new fleet owner and gets into the fleet owner's truck.

Driver and fleet owner qualifications are something to be addressed before they are brought into the carrier's fold, and after as necessary.

I don't know what our safety department is doing exactly in response to CSA. I don't know because our CSA scores are so low as to not be an issue. I do believe that if our safety department saw a driver run up a 100+ point CSA score, that driver would be quickly terminated. No safety person in the field would be needed. The paperwork would tell the story and that driver would be gone.

If any carrier is going to put safety people on the road to monitor the fleet, I would suggest that the effort be targeted toward the worst offenders. The peson's time and gas money would be better spent and the results would be more effective.

Diane's CSA score is ZERO! Mine is four and will soon drop to two (inoperative marker light). You could put a spy on us 24/7 and our scores will not significantly improve. If you want to have a meaningful impact on CSA scores in a fleet, focus first on the people who own the most trucks (fleet owners), and among them, focus on those whose drivers are generating the most points.

One approach is to put a guy in a van to randomly observe whatever trucks don't figure out he is in the area and avoid him because of it. Another is to target the worst offenders. If they are targeted, they can be made to come in for an inspection instead of sending someone out on the hunt.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
Driver and fleet owner qualifications are something to be addressed before they are brought into the carrier's fold.

THIS is a really really interesting comment.

Maybe the word favoritism has to be used to illustrate the issue a lot of us have had with the fact that owners who contract with new freshly licensed drivers are the real caused of these problems and maybe enforcing their own policies equally may limit the exposure to the carrier and those others. I think this fact has forced FedEx among a few to hire people to go and seek out bad drivers/owners and get rid of them.

Yep favoritism has reared its ugly head.
 

roadeyes

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Diane's CSA score is ZERO! Mine is four and will soon drop to two (inoperative marker light). You could put a spy on us 24/7 and our scores will not improve. If you want to have a meaningful impact on CSA scores in a fleet, focus first on the people who own the most trucks (fleet owners), and among them, focus on those whose drivers are generating the most points.

One approach is to put a guy in a van to randomly observe whatever trucks don't figure out he is in the area and avoid him because of it. Another is to target the worst offenders. If they are targeted, they can be made to come in for an inspection instead of sending someone out on the hunt.

Phil, no one is suggesting you and Diane are not professional operators. I don't know you personally but have read enough of your posts here and on your blog to know that you are indeed professional. You do not have to prove that to anyone, and believe me I understand your resentment to what you perceive to be your carrier not trusting you to "act as a professional" so to speak, which is really what it comes down to.

Unfortunately as I'm sure you are aware, not every driver/owner does act as professional hence the need for such safety officials.

Once the CSA data starts being compiled, do you not think that targeting the worst offenders is exactly what will happen. Once say maybe a years worth of data is compiled, and safety see your and Diane's consistently low CSA scores do you think they will still be "spying" on you? Even if they do, if you have nothing to hide, then it really should be a non issue.

Right now everything is in transition and everyone is being looked at until the data starts flowing and then the safety dept. can indeed start weeding out the bad apples, for the betterment of the entire fleet.
I am not with the Fed but I do believe that this is what will take place not only with them, but with the safety dept. of most companies.

I would definitely agree with you that driver and fleet owner qualifications desperately need to be looked at better before they even come into the fold. That would definitely be a preventative step in the right direction.
 
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roadeyes

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
well here is a rather odd two questions;

We have Canadian drivers operating here in the states, does a Canadian driver who gets inspected here and violations get CSA 2010 points that count against their Canadian carrier even though the Canadian carrier does not have a US DOT authority?

Does a Canadian inspection and violations by a US driver count on your CSA 2010 score?

Forgive my ignorance, but how does a Canadian driver operate in the States without their carrier having U.S authority?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
... and believe me I understand your resentment to what you perceive to be your carrier not trusting you to "act as a professional" so to speak, which is really what it comes down to.

You put it in words better than I do.

Even if they do, if you have nothing to hide, then it really should be a non issue.

It is an issue exactly for the reasons you stated so well above.

Right now everything is in transition and everyone is being looked at until the data starts flowing and then the safety dept. can indeed start weeding out the bad apples, for the betterment of the entire fleet.
I am not with the Fed but I do believe that this is what will take place not only with them, but with the safety dept. of most companies.

I know of only one other expediting company that has safety people in the field and that is LEA. Their approach is entirely different, and superior, I believe. (My information may be dated here and I am open to correction.)

DOT inspections are required four times a year and the company pays for them. Also, it is in your contract that you will submit to an inspection when an on road company representative asks.

The big difference with the field personnel is that the inspectors are with a contracted outside company with a precise job description and an incentive to treat all contractors equally and inspect everyone for the same things under the same standards.

The combination of cooperation (company pays for DOT inspections) teeth (must submit to on-road inspections when asked) and consistency (precise job description, incentive to treat all the same) is important and presents a package that is, in my view, far more effective and more acceptable than the approach our carrier takes now.

Landstar is no slouch when it comes to safety. FedEx Custom Critical might learn a thing or two from them.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
Forgive my ignorance, but how does a Canadian driver operate in the States without their carrier having U.S authority?

I understand that they have to register with the US DOT to obtain an MC number but do not need to have a full authority in order to do cross border work or deliver into the state from Canada.
 

roadeyes

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
The big difference with the field personnel is that the inspectors are with a contracted outside company with a precise job description and an incentive to treat all contractors equally and inspect everyone for the same things under the same standards.

The combination of cooperation (company pays for DOT inspections) teeth (must submit to on-road inspections when asked) and consistency (precise job description, incentive to treat all the same) is important and presents a package that is, in my view, far more effective and more acceptable than the approach our carrier takes now.

Ah! Ok, so now I get the feeling that it has just as much to do with the policies not being applied equally as it does with the carrier not trusting you. I didn't pick up on that before in the other threads regarding this. I agree that would be a sore spot with me as well.





I gues the simple solution would be to paint your truck red as I hear it acts like camoflage and the safety people won't see you!:D

Apparently though it seems to have the opposite effect as far as positioning goes in the express centres. I hear that it makes you stand out for some reason?

Sorry, I couldn't resist! :p
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
There is a bit more to the Landstar story. I won't detail it but it isn't that simple and I do believe that if Phil had to face their scrutiny, he would be saying the same thing about them as he says about FedEx's safety guy.
 

Streakn1

Veteran Expediter
everyone can be assured the owner will be getting a certified letter and 30 days later a suit will be filed.

Why are you going to wait thirty days to file suit? File it the day you return the truck! Especially if you are required to file the suit in the county the owner does business/resides in, as most of the time is the case. If they pay you prior to the hearing date, you can always drop the suit, even up to minutes prior to the hearing. Its funnier than h#ll when they show up for the court hearing and you don't, only for them to learn you dropped the suit thirty minutes prior to the hearing.

We filed suit the next morning after we returned the dr-unit we drove (before buying our own) for a fleet owner based in the Atlanta,Ga area. Then we dropped it on the eleventh hour. They had already showed up for the second hearing since we had not settled at the first. We got what we were after in more ways than one!!!
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I can choose my friends. I can even make friends in the safety department and am inclined to do so if they operate openly and fairly. Spies come uninvited.
"Spy" is a pretty snide characterization, especially when you proclaim your own willingness to "report to Safety" any conditions and/or situations that you observe or become aware of, without that driver's knowledge. As Greg says, that's Terry's job, and what he does should please you - or are you just miffed that you weren't offered the job?

Your argument is non sequiter (the inference does not follow from the premise). There is nothing in the 100+ CSA point driver's account to suggest that her carrier putting a spy on the road would have made a difference.
3 of the 8 violations stemmed from one light out! Which the driver stated was attended to immediately [but the mechanics found it working just fine], and the second inspection was just after, when the same light got 2 more violations [turn & flasher]. This could happen to any of us, yourself included.
I've already said that one violation [visible wires], was present on my truck when it received a 'no violations' inspection just last week - I had no idea it could be a violation, and bet most others didn't either.
Those two account for half the points, right there!

Second, the CSA points that could have been avoided, could have been avoided if the driver would have had the knowledge and motivation to detect truck defects and the good judgment to refuse the truck the moment she saw it.
I see no cause to belittle the driver's knowledge or motivation after reading the explanation.

I don't know what our safety department is doing exactly in response to CSA. I don't know because our CSA scores are so low as to not be an issue.
That being the case, one wonders why it's a favorite subject of yours - maybe so you can pat yourself on the back ?
I do believe that if our safety department saw a driver run up a 100+ point CSA score, that driver would be quickly terminated. No safety person in the field would be needed. The paperwork would tell the story and that driver would be gone.
As Yesteryear's explanation illustrates, the paperwork doesn't always tell the WHOLE story, and terminating the driver [in this case, at least], would be grossly unfair. What about the fleet owner? Where's his penalty for failing to provide a truck in good condition?

What I think, is that the Texas troopers either plan to ask for a budget increase, or are trying to avert potential cutbacks by scoring as many 'violations' as possible, to use as statistics in defense of their wants, and Yesteryear was just collateral damage.
And it could happen to any one of us, and probably will.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
"Spy" is a pretty snide characterization, especially when you proclaim your own willingness to "report to Safety" any conditions and/or situations that you observe or become aware of, without that driver's knowledge. As Greg says, that's Terry's job, and what he does should please you - or are you just miffed that you weren't offered the job?


Ouuuuch:D

I think it has to do with <<<edited out>>>


 

roadeyes

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
well here is a rather odd two questions;

We have Canadian drivers operating here in the states, does a Canadian driver who gets inspected here and violations get CSA 2010 points that count against their Canadian carrier even though the Canadian carrier does not have a US DOT authority?

Does a Canadian inspection and violations by a US driver count on your CSA 2010 score?


Are you refering to private not for hire fleets that require a USDOT number but not a motor carrier number?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
"Spy" is a pretty snide characterization, especially when you proclaim your own willingness to "report to Safety" any conditions and/or situations that you observe or become aware of, without that driver's knowledge.

Who said anything about "without that driver's knowledge?" If I am advocating against another driver, that driver will know it and know it from me.

As Greg says, that's Terry's job, and what he does should please you - or are you just miffed that you weren't offered the job?

No, I am not miffed. I would go on welfare before taking a job like that. First, the job comes with a boss. I'm self-employed because I don't want a boss. Second, the pay, I presume, is too low. I can do far better in my present position. Third, I would not enjoy making a living by looking for the worst in people and justifying my existence by ferreting out the faults. There are many other reasons why I would not want that job but those are the top three.

I know a case can be made for the positive aspects, like enhancing the safety rating for the carrier and maintaining the quality of the fleet but that's not how the job was presented to me by Terry when he explained it. He kept score by the number of inspections he did and violations he found. Not my cup of tea.

3 of the 8 violations stemmed from one light out! Which the driver stated was attended to immediately [but the mechanics found it working just fine], and the second inspection was just after, when the same light got 2 more violations [turn & flasher]. This could happen to any of us, yourself included.
I've already said that one violation [visible wires], was present on my truck when it received a 'no violations' inspection just last week - I had no idea it could be a violation, and bet most others didn't either.
Those two account for half the points, right there!

The fault began when the junker truck was accepted in the first place. It was a truck that prompted increased scrutiny because it looked so bad. Scale cops that might have written one ticket instead of two wrote two to get that piece of crap off the road. A truck that might have been bypassed was pulled in because it looked so bad.

I see no cause to belittle the driver's knowledge or motivation after reading the explanation.

She belittles herself, saying more than once, supported by facts, that she is stupid. She is harsher on herself than she needs to be. It might have been better to talk about the stupid deeds instead of the stupid person. Even smart people make stupid mistakes. On the other hand, some people make more mistakes than others, and those are the kind that end up with 100+ CSA points that others remain free of.

That being the case, one wonders why it's a favorite subject of yours - maybe so you can pat yourself on the back ?

I do not often mention, my CSA score, but I am proud of it, yes.

As Yesteryear's explanation illustrates, the paperwork doesn't always tell the WHOLE story, and terminating the driver [in this case, at least], would be grossly unfair.

We have different views on this. The paperwork may not tell the whole story but it tells enough to justify termination.

What about the fleet owner? Where's his penalty for failing to provide a truck in good condition?

That is an excellent question. A major hole exists in the CSA system that credits drivers with equipment violations while letting the truck owners go unpunished. Unless carriers pick up the slack and land hard of the truck owners too, that state of affairs will continue.

What I think, is that the Texas troopers either plan to ask for a budget increase, or are trying to avert potential cutbacks by scoring as many 'violations' as possible, to use as statistics in defense of their wants, and Yesteryear was just collateral damage.
And it could happen to any one of us, and probably will.

Yesteryear stated that one of the cops said he pulled in the truck because it looked so bad. That would not happen to anyone. It happened in this specific case because the truck looked bad. There is no outcry coming from truckers now about Texas cops who are running up the score. 100+ CSA points is not the result of bad luck or something that can happen to anyone. That is a very high number by any standard. It did not come from a lone, nit-picking cop. It came from a number of cops in a number of inspections.

No, it can't happen to anyone of us, not 100+ CSA points attributable to things beyond the driver's control. You make the case for that yourself when you cite the bare wires you had but did not get cited.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I didn't say bare wires, I said visible - which cost YY 3 violations. [ And BTW: I got a surprise Level 2 this morning in NC, and another no violations report, and the wires are still visible.]
I have heard that Texas is doing a lot of inspections lately, and finding a lot of minor [and even novel] violations. Such as not having reflective tape on the rear mudflap hangers - a rule to enhance visibility of bobtails, and never applied to straight trucks, till now, for obvious reasons: we can't bobtail. But one LEO decided it applies anyhow, and the driver got a violation.

And I still find it hypocritical that you lambaste Terry for doing his job, while you are willing to do it when it isn't.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
And I still find it hypocritical that you lambaste Terry for doing his job, while you are willing to do it when it isn't.

Are you done now? Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder. I have no hope of changing your mind so, shall we let it be?
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Sorry Phil, it does seem like you have a personal agenda going.
Also, where do you get the idea that fleet owner trucks are in worse shape than an individual driver/owner? Numbers fleet wide don't indicate those findings. May want to check/verify with your field safety liaison for confirmation.
There is great and poor performers on both sides.
And lastly, across our fleet for the last 36 months was three violations. One for a box light, speeding, and the other was 100lbs overweight on the front axle.
Only one had anything to do with the vehicle condition.
Be careful when you just "ASSUME" something.
 
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jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
Davekc,
Congratulations to you and your drivers for maintaining and operating your vehicles in a truly professional manner.
 
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