Ok Everyone, LET ME HAVE IT! Poor it on hard!

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Davekc,
Congratulations to you and your drivers for maintaining and operating your vehicles in a truly professional manner.


Thanks
We do our best as we know many fleet owners and individuals do. We pride ourselves on our fleet and performance like many others do. It really is a team effort. Of course there are those few out there that get recognized more for what they don't do. Some of these threads are testament to that.
 

transporter

Expert Expediter
one point phil brought up i dont think should be of any concern and that is fleet owners with poor quality trucks.
hypothetically lets say a owner with panther has a couple trucks that keep getting safety violations. one the drivers record will be ruined and their services terminated however panther wont tolerate a owner thats going to regularly hurt their safety rating
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
It isn't the owners who get blamed, it's the drivers. Rightly so, sometimes, but it still blows my mind that 2 petty violations [one peekaboo marker light & a couple visible wires] can wreak serious havoc on a driver's record.
With both a Level 1 and Level 2 no violation inspections within the last week, I can say that I keep the truck I drive in proper repair - but the violations being written [reflectors on the mudflaps of a straight truck?!] are just ludicrous!

 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Never heard of having reflectors on the mudflaps. Not even sure that is a violation? Don't see it in the regs but I am not a expert on them either.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
The fleet owner for whom I drive warned me about it a few weeks ago, after one of his trucks was cited.
I bought the reflector strips, but as the flaps are mounted to the front of the bars, haven't quite figured out how to attach them. Never mind the fact that they wouldn't be visible if they were mounted, it's a potential violation, right? And us violators need to be gotten off the road, uh huh. :(
 

transporter

Expert Expediter
my memory is a little shaky on the mud flapps, but if i remember it right it isnt a fderal rule but one of the states made the rule.
i maybe wrong it has been along time ago when i read it.
cheri the owner wont get in trouble with the dot but whoevers dot # keeps getting safety violation hits will stop doing business with that owner. and a driver who gets 100 or more points added to their record in one year will have extreem difficulty getting hired at another trucking company even thoughs point doint go to next carrier it will show them a trend towards getting violations. carriers wont take that risk
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Dave, the reflector/stainless steel weight on the bottom of the mudflap is illegal here in the state of denial. I got practical experience on that one.

I think the owner issue will be addressed, there is efforts to solve the container trailer issue within the CSA 2010, so it may spill over to truck owners or at least the carriers who will have to ensure their fleet is up to a minimal standard.

Also take a look ... http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/newbies-paradise-forum/44072-attacking-monster-csa-2010-a.html
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Don't run those, but I had no idea they were illegal. The reflector thing sounds questionable as well. I have yet to set reflective mudflaps on a state vehicle or school bus. Maybe soon to be coming?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
These violations are mostly driver fault...it is their responsibility to do a complete pre-trip and get anything broke fixed....and REFUSE to drive till it is...if it does not pass your pre-trip then the unit should be parked...till it is...
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
CSA does not change the equipment and paperwork rules (log books, truck registration, medical card, etc.). It changes the way violations are scored and tracked. Those changes are changing driver behavior such that maintaining a driver's good record may come to trump customer service.

I mentioned earlier that our truck lets us know if an open circuit develops. It happened not long ago that we got an open circuit warning on the right turn signal circuit. It simply meant that a bulb went out. It worked when we pre-tripped the truck before the run and burned out while we were under load.

No big deal, I thought. We'll just stop at the next safe place and change the bulb. When we did, I was troubled and frustrated to find no spare on board. I thought sure we had spares for every bulb we had. I clearly remember buying spares when we bought the truck. But, mysteriously, there was no bulb to be found.

So, what do you do next? Do you risk a ticket and continue to your delivery to avoid a service failure for being late? Do you call dispatch for a rescue truck to take the freight so you can find a bulb? Do you shut down the truck and call road service for a repair? You might get on the CB and try to beg a bulb from another driver but good luck with that.

Diane was checking the web while I hunted more for a bulb. It worked out that a bulb could be purchased two exits ahead and that's what we did. Enough time remained to replace the bulb and make the delivery on time.

When the run was completed, we drove straight to a Volvo dealer where I did a complete inventory of every bulb we had on the truck and made sure we had spares for them all. I now know where that list is and where all spare bulbs and fuses are kept.

Our issue was easily resolved, but what do you do if say a wiring problem develops that takes out a side turn signal lamp, that requires a repair that you cannot make yourself, and you are under load? Do you put the truck in the shop to protect your CSA score or do you continue with the load to avoid a service failure?

I wonder what our carrier and other carriers would do if you called dispatch and reported that you have a required lamp not functioning and for that reason you must stop hauling the freight you have on board.

At what point will a carrier's CSA efforts trump its customer service efforts? What do you think the customer's response would be if dispatch called and said the freight would be late because a turn signal circuit failed on the truck that was hauling it?

Back to the real-world example I cited above, what would we have done if a bulb could not be found or if a quick repair could not be made? I can't say for sure, but I am inclined to say that we would have stopped and asked dispatch to send a truck to rescue the freight.

With the new CSA regime now in effect I'm not inclined to risk getting a violation in the name of customer service. The customer cares nothing about us and our truck, only about the load. CSA points are more persistent and significant in the long run and it seems best to me to protect my record first. If I don't, I may not be around to carry the next load the customer wants hauled.
 
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Yesteryear

Expert Expediter
These violations are mostly driver fault...it is their responsibility to do a complete pre-trip and get anything broke fixed....and REFUSE to drive till it is...if it does not pass your pre-trip then the unit should be parked...till it is...

OVM, we do a pretrip. Every violation but one ( and let me remind u the blinker was working when we left Laredo, I am pretty sure it bounced when I hit that enoooormous pot hole when you turn there at the light between the FJ and the TA, I tried to miss it but it caught my back wheel) which was the blinker. That 1 blinker was the issue on 2 of the DOT's as the 2 DOTs came back to back. We did stop at the TA in New Braunfels to have the blinker fixed and was told ( I have the reciept from the TA saying no work was nessacary the blinker was working fine) there was nothing wrong with it. (and was charged 19.95 for them to say nothing wrong). Went down the road got pulled over again and again it wasn't working. Come on guys it could have happened to any of you and you all know it.
Then a broken strap on a fire extinguisher. That was another failed DOT! Come on, the top holder was secure and the bottom strap was secure. As long as it was secured why would it matter that 1 of the 2 straps was broken. Not even completely broken, just almost? Then reflection tape another failed violation. How many of you have reflection tape on the TOP and BOTTOM of your bumpers. I made it a point to look at other trucks and very few have any reflection tape at all on their bumpers moreless top and bottom. There was reflection tape on the top how did I know it had to be on both? Another failed DOT was the tag was bent, I kid you not, the guy put it as a violation that the freaking tag was bent where the wind was whipping at. That happens to these straight trucks all the time. Get real. Another one was the back DOT bumper had been bent. Paaahleeeese! Everyone take a look at all the truck around you and see how many have bent dot bumpers! Get real! Another failed DOT was wiring coming from the blinkers! Officer said if you could see a wire when walking up to a truck it was a violation!
If all these piddly little things were violation then why did they all come from different officers during different DOT inspections in under 2 months, actually about a 6 week period? Why didn't the first DOT inspection name everyone of these violations the first time instead of each one coming up with some piddly little thing! This is such a DUH situation and u guys know it. But if it makes you feel good to say "Oh I am the great driver it would never happen to me" then go right ahead. Just don't be honest about it and hide it under your belts because I would just bet each of you truck drivers (doubt the vans as you don't have to put up with crap like this) have something that has happened. It was quite clear DOT wanted that truck off the road. There was NOTHING mecanically or safety wrong with the truck. DOT could not find anything so they nit picked it! It happens. That is why we are NOT IN THE TRUCK! We returned the truck because it was being targeted by DOt AND IT WAS OBVIOUS! Excuse me for believing in a company and thinking they would come through for us. I reported it after the first with the wiring! And might I add I fixed every little thing they could come up with. How were we two know it was going to keep happening. The weekend with the 3 DOTs, one friday one saturday and one sunday was the final straw we called the company and told them if they could not come up with another truck we were returning their truck and we did report it to our carrier! These DOTS happened in a very short time it is not like it was a long drawn out affair!
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
No big deal, I thought. We'll just stop at the next safe place and change the bulb. When we did, I was troubled and frustrated to find no spare on board.

Had you practiced the Burned Out Bulb Reaction Drill you would have been prepared for just such an emergency.


Diane was checking the web while I hunted more for a bulb. It worked out that a bulb could be purchased two exits ahead and that's what we did.

Wow, who would have thought that a hand-blown Swedish light bulb could be found only 2 exits away. I'm sure you will be giving thanks to Al Gore and the internet tomorrow for saving your CSA score!

Our issue was easily resolved, but what do you do if say a wiring problem develops that takes out a side turn signal lamp, that requires a repair that you cannot make yourself, and you are under load?

I hope you would do the same thing with a wiring problem that you would with a dangling brake chamber, or a leaking fuel line. GET IT FIXED! These are safety issues. The letter "S" in CSA stands for the word "Safety".


At what point will a carrier's CSA efforts trump its customer service efforts?

Safety trumps all. This isn't about your CSA score. You have a responsibility to your fellow motorists to drive and maintain your truck in a safe and legal manner.


CSA points are more persistent and significant in the long run and it seems best to me to protect my record first.
SAFETY FIRST. I saw this on a poster right next to a THERE IS NO "I" IN TEAM poster, but there is an "a".

I may not be around to carry the next load the customer wants hauled.
Like you said, the customer cares nothing about you and your truck.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yesteryear, a lot of what you described is what I have been told is not a big deal by a lot of DOT officers. I think it is an extreme abuse of power.

I know one thing is a fact, they pick on small trucks because they are easier to process through to meet their quotas.

The nitpicking of a fire extinguisher and wiring is rather stupid, but it is a point that should be made that we as drivers need to check things regularly. We will see more of it in the future when more states start to enforce the regulations.

I have had several inspections and one thing I can say is only one asked to see my safety equipment. I have never been told that wiring hanging is a violation, it is secured and out of the way but visible. I also can not find a regulation where it says it has to be hidden.

The real problem with the CSA 2010 is the lack of an appeals process, and I think this is purposefully done by the FMCSA to clamp down on everything.

As for Phil's comments, he brought up a great point - if the carrier tells the customer you will be late because you have a burned out light, that person should be fired. That is a stupid move and I know it happens where he is at because of the quality of people.

He also made a good point about customer service, which he and all of us are just a part of, we do not make the entire service chain.

If we have issues on the road that are beyond our control, like a light burning out, then it is not a big deal unless the customer needs that medicine to save thousands of people (get the point?). A lot of this freight isn't critical as many make it out as and because it isn't critical, there is latitude to ensure safe operation within the law.

IF the carrier forces you not to make a minor repair (lamp, fuse, etc...) then they are not worth being with no matter how much they pay you.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Come on guys it could have happened to any of you and you all know it.

Actually, I can say with all certainty that it would not have happened to me. While it can happen to anyone that a lamp seen working during a pre-trip can stop working while you are driving, it would not happen to me that it would happen a second time.

If I got cited for a defective lamp and then saw the lamp working again when nothing had been done, that would tell me that I had an intermittent problem that needed diagnosis and repair. Such problems are usually caused by bad wires or bad connections. I would have jiggled wires, traced circuits, cleaned up connections, and changed the bulb until I had either found the cause or satisfied myself that the circuit was sound.

The TA mechanic saw a functioning light and saw no reason to proceed. That did not make the intermittent problem go away and the receipt he issued does not become a permission slip that absolves you of responsibility.

Even if you do not have the mechanical skills and tools to troubleshoot the problem yourself, if you have a light work sometimes and not work at other times, and a mechanic tells you the light is OK, the on-again, off-again experience with the light will tell an alert driver that the light is not OK, even if the mechanic says it is. Failure to pursue the problem resulted in additional citations.


Then a broken strap on a fire extinguisher. That was another failed DOT! Come on, the top holder was secure and the bottom strap was secure. As long as it was secured why would it matter that 1 of the 2 straps was broken. Not even completely broken, just almost?

One might just as easily ask, if the strap was broken or worn, why did you not do something about it before the cop cited you? He did not install a bad strap in your truck and then cite you for it. It was there and you let it be.

Then reflection tape another failed violation. How many of you have reflection tape on the TOP and BOTTOM of your bumpers. I made it a point to look at other trucks and very few have any reflection tape at all on their bumpers moreless top and bottom. There was reflection tape on the top how did I know it had to be on both?

As others have indicated in this thread, you may have grounds to contest that particular citation. Members here are not clear about the rule itself. As far as "how did I know it had to be on both?" You would know by reading the regulations. They are available online and in the green FMCSA handbook carriers give you in orientation (I presume). If you don't have one, they can be purchased at truck stops.

The new CSA rules are prompting drivers of all stripes to learn more about the rules. Even those with zero or low CSA points are going back to the rule book to read them again. How do you know what the rules are? You read the rules.

Another failed DOT was the tag was bent, I kid you not, the guy put it as a violation that the freaking tag was bent where the wind was whipping at. That happens to these straight trucks all the time. Get real.

Actually it does not happen to straight trucks all the time. On our straight truck, we had a solid plate installed on which to mount the tag. The wind is not an issue. It happened on yours because your owner did not install such a plate. You got the citation because you accepted the truck in that condition and drove it.

Another one was the back DOT bumper had been bent. Paaahleeeese! Everyone take a look at all the truck around you and see how many have bent dot bumpers! Get real!

So, are you saying that because other trucks have bent bumpers it is OK for yours to have one too? What about bad tires and brakes? Lots of trucks have bad tires and brakes. Is it then OK for you to have them too?


Another failed DOT was wiring coming from the blinkers! Officer said if you could see a wire when walking up to a truck it was a violation!

I believe an exposed or unsecured wire is a violation. If the cop could easily see it so could you. Why was the wire left alone before you got to the scale?

If all these piddly little things were violation then why did they all come from different officers during different DOT inspections in under 2 months, actually about a 6 week period? Why didn't the first DOT inspection name everyone of these violations the first time instead of each one coming up with some piddly little thing

Piddly or not, they are violations to which CSA points are attached. The CSA points are not piddly and for that reason alone the items should have been fixed before you accepted the truck.


This is such a DUH situation and u guys know it. But if it makes you feel good to say "Oh I am the great driver it would never happen to me" then go right ahead.

I just did, but not to say I am a great driver. I said what I said and cited my example so newbies reading this thread will know that there is a great deal that can be done to keep one's CSA score low. And so they will know that the excuses you offer carry no weight. Nothing you have said changes the fact that the driver is responsible for the truck and you chose to drive a junker truck while demonstrating no concern for having defects repaired before they were cited.


Just don't be honest about it and hide it under your belts because I would just bet each of you truck drivers (doubt the vans as you don't have to put up with crap like this) have something that has happened.

It does indeed happen to drivers that a defect develops after a good pre-trip is done and the driver is cited for the defect after it develops. It does not commonly happen to these same drivers that they rack up 100+ CSA points in a short period of time. Some of those 100 points may not be deserved but they are all yours now.

It was quite clear DOT wanted that truck off the road. There was NOTHING mecanically or safety wrong with the truck. DOT could not find anything so they nit picked it! It happens. That is why we are NOT IN THE TRUCK! We returned the truck because it was being targeted by DOt AND IT WAS OBVIOUS! Excuse me for believing in a company and thinking they would come through for us. I reported it after the first with the wiring! And might I add I fixed every little thing they could come up with. How were we two know it was going to keep happening. The weekend with the 3 DOTs, one friday one saturday and one sunday was the final straw we called the company and told them if they could not come up with another truck we were returning their truck and we did report it to our carrier! These DOTS happened in a very short time it is not like it was a long drawn out affair!

If these points do not end your career as a truck driver, I can only hope that you have learned the importance of being knowledgeable, proactive and self-responsible for keeping your CSA point score from growing higher.

You have complained about nit-picking cops and piddly violations. You have used the TA receipt as a permission slip to continue when you should have further pursued the problem. You plead ignorance of the rules as a defense. You also used the defense that everyone else is bad so I should be free to be bad too.

Nowhere in your statements do I see you taking responsibility for the fact that you accepted a junker truck in the first place, and after doing so, failed to get the defects repaired before they were cited.

If you continue with that it's everyone else's fault and not my fault approach, you will find that DOT will not only work to get your bad truck off the road, it will work to get you off the road too. That's what CSA is all about and your recent batch of points puts you squarely in DOT's cross hairs.
 
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