Michigan illegally harassing CVs?

[AMonger]

Was just talking to the owner of a logisitics/expediting co. He said cargo vans are getting pulled over and ticketed near Kalamazoo. Apparently, the issue is the lack of a door sign. I asked him what happens if they're not loaded, and essentially operating a personal vehicle. He said his guys that got ticketed weren't even asked if they were loaded or not, just pulled over and ticketed without any questions.

Here's the kicker: He said their cell phones were confiscated during the stop. They were camera phones, and apparently, the cops don't want any documentation of such illegal stops.

Anybody heard of this crap going on?

 

[Moot]

Was just talking to the owner of a logisitics/expediting co. He said cargo vans are getting pulled over and ticketed near Kalamazoo.

And you believed him? Did he say who was pulling these cargo vans over? Was it the Fuller Brush Man, Kalamazoo PD or state patrol?

Apparently, the issue is the lack of a door sign.

In your conversation with this company owner did he use the word "apparently" when explaining this to you, or did you add the word for this post? If his drivers were issued tickets what was the exact violation listed on the citation.

Here's the kicker: He said their cell phones were confiscated during the stop. They were camera phones, and apparently, the cops don't want any documentation of such illegal stops.

That certainly is the kicker because procession of cell phones that were illegally confiscated would be more dămning than a picture.

Anybody heard of this crap going on?

I had not heard of this until a few minutes ago and there is probably a very good reason I had not heard of it until now.

 

[Turtle]

Anybody heard of this crap going on?

Crap is exactly what it sounds like. There's more to this story, assuming that any of it is true at all. Confiscation of cell phones without cause or due process will get this story on the front pages of newspapers all over the country. Cargo vans registered in Michigan are supposed to have lettering on the doors, though. From the Michigan statute:

"All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 lbs., and all towing or platform bed wreckers, must have the name, city and state or registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if it is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle, with letters not less than three inches in height and not lower than the bottom edge of the door."

That's for vehicles registered (plated) in Michigan (intrastate). It also applies for interstate vehicles registered outside the state of Michigan who operate intrastate within Michigan (pick up a load in Michigan and deliver it in Michigan).

So a Michigan-plated cargo van without door lettering could very well be pulled over and ticketed near Kalamazoo. Loaded or unloaded. But doing so is not illegal, and confiscating cell phones to prevent the recoding of such illegal activity is a load of crap, especially since most of the police cars have dashboard cameras, anyway.

 

[ConfusedMuse]

Well that explains why everyone is leaving Michigan. WOW talk about driving away the goose that laid the golden egg. Is this Jennifer's leaving swipe?
By the way those dash cams in the police cars often go missing or are not complete.

 

[AMonger]

And you believed him?

Well, he doesn't have signage, so he's not trying to sell me any. If he was, sure, that could easily be BS. But he's not. So what reason does he have to say this?

Did he say who was pulling these cargo vans over?

He didn't.

In your conversation with this company owner did he use the word "apparently" when explaining this to you, or did you add the word for this post? If his drivers were issued tickets what was the exact violation listed on the citation.

Apparently was my summation. I wish I had thought to ask him the exact violation. If I see him again, I'll definitely ask.

That certainly is the kicker because procession of cell phones that were illegally confiscated would be more dămning than a picture.

Only confiscated for the duration of the stop so they couldn't video it.

I had not heard of this until a few minutes ago and there is probably a very good reason I had not heard of it until now.

Hope you're right. Otherwise I'm making magnetics with an obscene acronym for them.

 

[bigshow345]

Michigan is so much in debt they are doing what they can to pay back the money borrowed from the feds to pay out unemployment with taxes, tickets, and fines. A Michigan state cop will pull you over so fast your head will spin! Fuel taxes, mileage taxes, taxes for having moles on your face (cheap shot at Gov granwhore) taxes to pay for someone elses love child. When will it ever end? Rick snyder will save us all.

 

[Brisco]

Cargo vans registered in Michigan are supposed to have lettering on the doors, though. From the Michigan statute:

"All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 lbs., and all towing or platform bed wreckers, must have the name, city and state or registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if it is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle, with letters not less than three inches in height and not lower than the bottom edge of the door."

That's for vehicles registered (plated) in Michigan (intrastate). It also applies for interstate vehicles registered outside the state of Michigan who operate intrastate within Michigan (pick up a load in Michigan and deliver it in Michigan).

So a Michigan-plated cargo van without door lettering could very well be pulled over and ticketed near Kalamazoo. Loaded or unloaded. But doing so is not illegal......

I know we're talking about us guys here that are running in a "For Hire" capacity in what was said above, but...........

What about good ole "Ralph the Retired Rocket Scientist" that buys a cargo van for personal use?? Lots of retirees have that side "truck" (old pickup-van) that they keep around the house to run to Lowes or Home Depot with to pick up gardening supplies/misc stuff for home projects. With the regulations stated above, and you pointing out that "a Michigan-plated cargo van without door lettering could very well be pulled over", would lead me to believe that private ownership of a "Cargo Van" could very well bring a lot of undue harrassment every time Retired Ralph got behind the wheel of his privately owned CV, right?

 

[bobwg]

I know we're talking about us guys here that are running in a "For Hire" capacity in what was said above, but...........

What about good ole "Ralph the Retired Rocket Scientist" that buys a cargo van for personal use?? Lots of retirees have that side "truck" (old pickup-van) that they keep around the house to run to Lowes or Home Depot with to pick up gardening supplies/misc stuff for home projects. With the regulations stated above, and you pointing out that "a Michigan-plated cargo van without door lettering could very well be pulled over", would lead me to believe that private ownership of a "Cargo Van" could very well bring a lot of undue harrassment every time Retired Ralph got behind the wheel of his privately owned CV, right?

You are not private if you get your insurance papers thru your company and the no fault insurance Michigan paper work list the company your signed on with I just looked at mine and it shows the company I haul for and list the van as commercial. I belive most cops when they stop you will ask for your license , registration , and proof of insurance

 

[skyraider]

Another can of worms to put up with till we get to the bottom of this. Yep, lots of folks will get pulled over just go in to Lowes and until Johnny the Judge gets pulled over going to lowes, it will continue. Another case of the stupid junk the police do because they are low on ego juice.

 

[bobwg]

Another can of worms to put up with till we get to the bottom of this. Yep, lots of folks will get pulled over just go in to Lowes and until Johnny the Judge gets pulled over going to lowes, it will continue. Another case of the stupid junk the police do because they are low on ego juice.

Ego juice? If you read the duties of a cop especially state cops it says all laws which includes the traffic laws and those requiring a commercial van to have lettering if you dont like it the people to ***** at are the politicians. change the law dont cry because the cop is doing what he gets paid to do

 

[Turtle]

I don't know the particulars, since I don't live there and I'm too lazy to go through the Michigan Legislature Web site to look it up, but they do differentiate between commercial and non-commercial vehicles. By not knowing the particulars, by that I mean I don't know the mechanism used to differentiate between them, whether it's commercial versus non-commercial plates, or on the registration paperwork itself, how much the registration costs (it's different for every 500 pounds, I think), how the insurance is written up, or whatever. Maybe someone in Michigan knows for sure.

I know there are some former expediters in Michigan who kept their vans for personal use. I know one guy who uses it to haul his dirt bikes in.

 

[bobwg]

I drive a Sprinter that has Michigan non commercial plates but the insurance papers indicates it is a commercial vehicle. THe owner got the plates so not sure what the requirement is as far as gvw or what before they require you to get commercial plates

 

[Turtle]

I'm pretty sure it's 8000 pounds for commercial plates. Michigan Legislature - Section 257.801 This page keeps mentioning less-than 8000 pounds for registration schedules.

Unless it weighs less than that and is actually a Commercial Vehicle Michigan Legislature - Section 257.7 . “Commercial vehicle” includes all motor vehicles used for the transportation of passengers for hire, or constructed or used for transportation of goods, wares or merchandise, and/or all motor vehicles designed and used for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry any load thereon either independently or any part of the weight of a vehicle or load so drawn."

So weight doesn't matter if it fits that definition.

Commercial Motor Vehicle is defined here: Michigan Legislature - Section 257.7a But notice the last line, where it says:
"A commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes."

That last line is clearly weight-independent, too, so Commercial Plates might not even be required for one over 8000 pounds.

The weights are defined as delivery empty weight, curb weight, not GVW or GVWR.

Chapter Index
Michigan Legislature - MCL Chapter Index

Motor Vehicles
Michigan Legislature - Chapter 257

 

[greg334]

Well first thing is it all depends on who pulled the guy over. I would suspect that if is was a county sheriff or a MSP trooper, they would call the commercial division (Carrier Enforcement) in to deal with it but on the other hand, taking the phone away is a case where they suspect more than a routine traffic stop - drugs maybe?

NOW the commercial vs. non-commercial issue here in the state is a result of the people crying about buying pickups and then having to pay for commercial plates so our great idiot governor pushed for that and also a new plate, citing the need to be up to date and modern (notice the little counterfeiting scheme used in the plates, like who in the hell counterfeits Michigan plates?) The plates are easy to figure out, two letters plus some numbers are commercial plates. Three letters and three number are not.

This has to do with both insurance and use fees and if you are caught and there is a big deal made about it, then you will have your title changed and then pay the difference for I think three years.

The insurance thing has to do with liabilities on the insurer's part if you are using your personal vehicle as a commercial vehicle, which even sprinter fall under that, then if you get into an accident, they will cover some of the expenses but play games with you on things like medical reimbursements and repairs to the cars.

On the other hand, a domestic registered vehicle can face fines and tickets about signs if the cop is an a** - you are driving a commercial vehicle if you are using for commercial purposes.

You won't find a some of it in the Michigan Legislative site but in the bulletins from the SoS office and the MSP.

 

[greg334]

I'm pretty sure it's 8000 pounds for commercial plates. Michigan Legislature - Section 257.801 This page keeps mentioning less-than 8000 pounds for registration schedules.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(wr...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-chap257

You can get commercial plates for any road vehicle, including motorcycles, hovercraft and even the occasional Crossly.

They don't do Motorcycles often but they have done crosslys.

 

[Brisco]

The plates are easy to figure out, two letters plus some numbers are commercial plates. Three letters and three number are not.

This kind of covers the thoughts I had about my little theory above.

I've probably been through 40 or so of the lower 48 states and have seen many many different "State" issued plates on cars and trucks that were all from the same freegin state. Never really paid attention to them though. Well, Indiana maybe since I spent a lot of time IN that state. They're plates are ridiculous when it comes to "Pick Up" trucks. A 1500 plate will say 8K-10K, a 2500 plate will say 10K-14K, and a 3500 plate will say 14K to 17K, or something like my examples. (don't remember exact specifics)

TEXAS is different! 1 Plate for all trucks under 26K. The plate says "Texas Truck" and you'll see the same plate on a little Ford Ranger as you would see on a 28ft GMC 5500 Box Truck. The registration fees are different and go by what the trucks "weights" are, (my 2006 Silverado 1500 costs me $55-$65 a year while my 2007 Dodge Cummins Dually cost me $100-$110 a year), but the plates that are issued all look the same.

Thank Goodness I don't live in a Liberal/Democratically controlled part of the country!!

 

[Turtle]

Thanks for the clarification. Michigan's Legislature site isn't exactly light reading and brain-dead easy to navigate through. Well, none of them are, I guess.

 

[greg334]

NP.

Michigan tries hard to obfuscate all legal issues and their codes to the point that even the people who have created them don't know what's in them. You should see what I went through just to get a clarification on the home cottage industry laws with the Department of Ag here, it was three weeks of emailing and even talking to Jenny's staff to get help and still after all of that there are a lot of grey areas.

The one thing I can tell you is that even if there is a law about it, the SoS offices who handle the vehicle titling and licensing issues can work around a lot of 'issues' but won't ever admit to it.

 

[skyraider]

Ego juice? If you read the duties of a cop especially state cops it says all laws which includes the traffic laws and those requiring a commercial van to have lettering if you dont like it the people to ***** at are the politicians. change the law dont cry because the cop is doing what he gets paid to do

no crying ,,we dont use signs nor commerical plates, blend in , dont look like a commerical vehicle.

 

[TJ959]

There is a state cop who is enforcing this out of the Kalamazoo area. It seems to be one of his pet peeves. He does not confiscate phones though. He did pull over the van registered to the company I work for part time (paint and body supply) but he got the other guy. All he did was issue a warning ticket and there was no fine if a sign was applied to the van within 10 days. The company complied and all was well. The boss asked me to look into this and after much research and reading on the state web site I gave up and called a safety manager for one of the companies on this site. He didn't know either but in all fairness he worked for an Ohio company. Finally we all concluded compliance was the better part of valor. Even working part time doing the old retired chubby guy delivery thing, you can learn something, once in a while.