Marijuana = alcohol

[Turtle]

Demonizing them as "bad things", when they aren't, is part of the problem.

There is, at least a statistical correlation, between increase in crime and the increase in laws making things illegal.

 

[scottm4211]

There is, at least a statistical correlation, between increase in crime and the increase in laws making things illegal.

Sure if things are abused they can be bad. But in itself and in moderation they aren't. The laws changing to bring in tax dollars will eventually de-demonize pot.

 

[layoutshooter]

Sure if things are abused they can be bad. But in itself and in moderation they aren't. The laws changing to bring in tax dollars will eventually de-demonize pot.

The tax part will not work as well as most claim it will. The taxes will create new opportunities for crime in themselves.

There are still "revenuers and bootleggers". There are tax cheats and cigarette smuggling. BIG business on parts of the US and Canadian borders as Canadians strive to find a way to get cheaper price on booze and cigarettes. I used to see Canadians trailer their boats into the US to buy fish finders etc. They had them installed, then when home. You customs paid no attention because those things looked like they belonged there and they were never checked on the way out of Canada. All done to avoid taxes. All illegal.

Same happens here.

Cigarette Taxes and Cigarette Smuggling by State | Tax Foundation

 

[Turtle]

The tax part will not work as well as most claim it will. The taxes will create new opportunities for crime in themselves.

Sixty percent of all cigarettes sold in New York are smuggled in, mostly from Virginia where they have a 30 cent per pack state tax. The New York State cigarette tax is $4.25 a pack in comparison. In New York City, they add an additional $1.50 per pack in top of that,m making the price of cigarettes in the City about $12 a pack. Since 2006 the New York State tax on cigarettes has risen 190%, and the rate of smuggling increased 170% during the same period. Coincidence? Nope.

 

[layoutshooter]

Sixty percent of all cigarettes sold in New York are smuggled in, mostly from Virginia where they have a 30 cent per pack state tax. The New York State cigarette tax is $4.25 a pack in comparison. In New York City, they add an additional $1.50 per pack in top of that,m making the price of cigarettes in the City about $12 a pack. Since 2006 the New York State tax on cigarettes has risen 190%, and the rate of smuggling increased 170% during the same period. Coincidence? Nope.

Yep, just as that chart I posted said. Same thing WILL happen with pot, guns etc etc. There is a TON of smuggling going on between Detroit and Windsor with cigs, booze, guns, ammo. The more Canada cracks down, the better the business gets and the more violent it gets.

 

[Pilgrim]

The difference is that WHEN kids screwed up in decades past, there were parents present to kill them for doing it. Now, the parents are FAR more likely to be absent and NOT kill them when they need it.

The "forbidden fruit" syndrome has always been with us. The consequences of taking a bite now are in no way comparable to those experienced by the traditional family of the 1960s. To say pot was equally available then compared to present times is just plain false, with the possible exception of the large urban areas. Growing up in a small town in the Southeastern US during the 1960s as a teenager, I knew where to get booze anywhere/anytime even though there were no liquor stores in a 20 mile radius; beer was easily available during the week until 11:00PM, and we knew the places that would sell to minors; pot was nowhere to be found. I and my pals also were aware that if we got caught taking a bite of the "apple" there would be hell to pay. It was a different social environment, and anyone who wasn't there simply can't understand what it was like.

 

[muttly]

Demonizing them as "bad things", when they aren't, is part of the problem.

So is not recognizing the potential hazards and sweeping them under the rug.

 

[muttly]

First, you've taken the position that smoking pot causes brain damage, and you've now used the same extreme example of abuse three different times as the basis for your argument. In the history of studies there has been but a single study that shows brain damage with heavy use, and that's the one you've latched on to, and you've posted three different articles about the same study. That's a logical fallacy, simply restating your case in different ways, as if each restatement is somehow additional support for your position.

I don't think anyone, and certainly not me, would disagree that overuse and abuse of pot, or most anything else, during your growth years is going to cause problems of one sort or another.

Second, the paragraph above introduces two distinct false premises as fact: making pot legal would increase "enormously" the amount of pot readily available for consumption, and that it would be more readily available on a "much" larger scale. The use of "enormously" and "much" is the problem with your assertions, as there is no evidence for either, and in fact there is historical evidence for just the opposite. Pot has been around for a really long time. It's a natural plant. It's been cultivated and used by humans for medical, ritual and recreational use since at least 2727 BC, and has been cultivated since at least 4000 BC. Of the last 6000 years, it's been illegal for about 100 of those years.

Throughout it's brief stint of illegality, it has remained ubiquitous. It's Kentucky's #1 cash crop. Corn, soybeans and tobacco are chump change. State and federal officials seize half a million pot plants a year in Kentucky, and they estimate that number represents about 10 percent of the actual crop that is grown, harvested and sold. And Kentucky is second to California in pot production. Nationwide, pot still reigns. It doesn't take much driving around this country to see just how much corn and soybeans are grown, yet marijuana production outstrips both corn and soybeans combined. This country grows three times more pot that it grows table vegetables for consumption. Five times the wheat, seven times the cotton.

Because of the false premise, you conclude I "would agree that 'very small number' would grow into a much larger number," yet I wouldn't agree with that at all. It is right now already everywhere, on a large scale, and it is readily available, on a large scale. It can't get much more readily available or widespread. There are 4000 years of recorded history that says it just ain't that big a deal. There is also more recent evidence that shows when you make illegal that which is already ubiquitous, people want and abuse it more. Prohibition told us that. Recent changes in French laws regarding the drinking age has told us that. In France in 2004 teenagers (13 and older) could buy beer and wine, and hard liquor at 16. Prior to that, binge drinking (abuse) was almost unheard of by French teenagers. In 2009 a new law restricted beer and wine to 16 and hard liquor to 18. About 20 percent of French 17-year-olds are drunk at least three times a month now, compared to about 1 percent prior to 2004. Admissions of French teenagers to hospitals for alcohol poisoning is now at just stupid levels. Binge drinking is up, so naturally they want to further restrict the drinking age to 21, just like it is in the US and the UK (where, you know, we don't have a binge drinking problem).

The war on poverty has created even more poverty. There are more people living in poverty today than at any time in the past. The war on illiteracy has created a population of stupid people who can't comprehend what they read. The war on drugs has created more widespread drug abuse in 100 years than in the combined 4000 years past. Many drugs should be tightly controlled because it requires a significant amount of specialized education in order to understand how to properly use and administer them. But pot ain't one of them.

It's not a logical fallacy. You are mischaracterizing my posts and creating your own logical fallacy. My first post provided a link which didn't even mention the Northwestern study by name. My next post was an article about the Northwestern study provided in a LINK ONLY. The third post, I provided a copy and paste of an article on the study (with more detail) FROM NORTHWESTERN. Only to provide more information for those in this forum who decided not to open the link in my previous post. You seem agitated that this study even exists. Like some inconvenient truth. It seems like a good study and all. Just providing information so people can make up there own mind. Since the study coorelated Marijuana (heavy use in young people) and brain function, its important to know about that. Prior to this study, I didn't know it could cause brain damage( in youths). Regarding the pot is everywhere already claim, I guess I'll take your word for it. Since it will be more and more ACCEPTED in society it will probably be used by more and more people in the future.Again I'm not necessarily against legalization. Its important that the facts be presented though. This is the link from my article I pasted from in the previous post:
Marijuana Users Have Abnormal Brain Structure and Poor Memory: Northwestern University News

 

[Turtle]

So is not recognizing the potential hazards and sweeping them under the rug.

Nobody has done that.

 

[muttly]

Nobody has done that.

NOBODY? I wasn't referring to a specific post in this thread. Was referring to those who don't recognize or don't want to recognize the pitfalls of drugs,which is more than nobody.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/09/health/weed-potency-levels/?c=&page=1

 

[Turtle]

NOBODY? I wasn't referring to a specific post in this thread. Was referring to those who don't recognize or don't want to recognize the pitfalls of drugs,which is more than nobody.

Of course, I was referring to this thread, but you're right, there is somebody out there somewhere who refuses to recognize the dangers of drugs. There always are. There are even people who refuse to believe heroin or meth is dangerous.

On the other side of the coin, they're just as bad as those who see more dangers than actually exist, and, like, you know, go batcrap crazy over a single study that shows the dangers of marijuana chronic abuse by teens and want to apply it to everyone across the board.

 

[usafk9]

The New York State cigarette tax is $4.25 a pack in comparison. In New York City, they add an additional $1.50 per pack in top of that.......

The NYS tax is actually $4.35 per pack, which is why most NY smokers I know buy theirs on an Indian Reservation.


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[runrunner]

Bottom line is,if you can't stop something,rather than try to stop that something and have no control,it is better to have some control. Prohibition proved that!

People have wanted to alter there state of mind since the beginning of time, and you can't stop that. It is the same as trying to stop sex. Ain't gonna happen!

 

[zorry]

. It is the same as trying to stop sex. Ain't gonna happen!

Never been married, eh ?

 

[Ragman]

Never been married, eh ?

 

[muttly]

Of course, I was referring to this thread, but you're right, there is somebody out there somewhere who refuses to recognize the dangers of drugs. There always are. There are even people who refuse to believe heroin or meth is dangerous.

On the other side of the coin, they're just as bad as those who see more dangers than actually exist, and, like, you know, go batcrap crazy over a single study that shows the dangers of marijuana chronic abuse by teens and want to apply it to everyone across the board.

In my previous post I wasn't referencing you I was referring to myself. And again you are using a logical fallacy and misrepresenting my position. You missed on this one. Swing and a miss strike three Reggie Jackson corkscrew in the dirt style . Hehe

 

[RLENT]

In my previous post I wasn't referencing you I was referring to myself. And again you are using a logical fallacy and misrepresenting my position.

Well ... you can say the words, now let's see if you can actually sing the tune:

Identify which particular logical fallacy specifically it is that you believe he is using and then explain how that is so.

You missed on this one. Swing and a miss strike three Reggie Jackson corkscrew in the dirt style . Hehe

We'll see ... go ahead and make your case as outlined above, and let us be the judge.

 

[Turtle]

 

[asjssl]

Here is the start

http://abriluno.com/phillip-morris-introduces-marlboro-marijuana-cigarettes/

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[muttly]

Oooh,oooh, lookie here. I thought there was only ONE STUDY. Just reporting the facts so people can make up there own mind.
From article: '.... White matter continues to develope as people age.'

Marijuan Use Causes Brain Damage Confirmed

By Christine Hsu | Aug 9, 2012 04:23 PM EDT

Tags memory, marijuana, brain

(Toussaint Kluiters/Reuters)*

Scientists have confirmed the long-held suspicion that frequent heavy marijuana use damages the brain's memory and learning capacity. *

Australian researchers have showed for the first time that the earlier people start their marijuana habit, the worse the brain damage.

"Our results suggest that long-term cannabis use is hazardous to white matter in the developing brain.* This was especially true for those who had started in adolescence, as we know the brain is still developing during this time," Lead researcher Dr. Marc Seal, from Melbourne’s Murdoch Children's Research Institute said in a university release.

Scientists from MCRI, Melbourne University and Wollongong University compared MRI scans of the brain for 59 people who had been using marijuana for an average of 15 years to 33 healthy people who had never used the drug.

After measuring changes to the volume, strength and integrity of white matter in the brains of all participants, researchers found that long-term heavy cannabis users had disruptions in their white matter fibers.

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The brain's white matter is responsible for information passed between different areas of grey matter within the nervous system, and unlike grey matter, which are the brain's thinking areas that peaks at age eight, white matter continues to develop as people age.

Seal and his team found that there was more than 80 percent reduction of white matter in the brains of users.

Additionally, researchers found that the average age of participants in the study started using cannabis when they were 16 years old, participants who started using the drug at a younger age like 10 or 11 had even more severe brain damage.

"This is the first study to demonstrate the age at which regular cannabis use begins is a key factor in determining the severity of the brain damage," Seal said, according to AAP.

He explained that marijuana interferes with naturally occurring cannabinoid receptors in the brain and by introducing external cannabinoids into a person's system it stops their white matter from maturing.

Researchers linked the significant changes in the white matter in the brain's hippocampus and commissural fibers, suggesting that long-term marijuana use may lead to memory impairment and deficits in learning and concentration ability.

"These people can have trouble learning new things and they are going to have trouble remembering things," Seal said.

"We don't know if the changes are irreversible but we do know that these changes are quite significant," he added.

Researchers said that the findings could not be explained by recreational drug and alcohol use.*Researchers will monitor participants for the next two years to detect any further changes.

The latest findings add to results from previous smaller studies that showed that the brain's memory center, the hippocampus, shrunk in heavy marijuana users.


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