Looks like the UAW and GM have everything under control!

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
LOL, Government Motors at its best!!! I love it!!! This ain't your daddies GM anymore...you will see this spreading from plant to plant on a plant by plant basis to get around the contract language....LOL...I love it!!! :D
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
After hearing who is considered to be on the pre-sale stock list for GM, they should have just gone out of business and we would have been better off.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Its a shame to see anyone cutting wages, we all will be at 3rd world counties wages soon. Anyone think the price of a car has come down in price with all the outsourcing of work going on? It hasnt, It has only resulted in the lowering of wages across this nation. I just dont get how people hope for someone to lose their job or that there wages get cut. When GM n Ford get done cutting wages who do you think will be next, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, they already are looking at this. yea for lower wages.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Oiler,
What's your point?

Learn how economics work and learn the history of ours and the worlds economy - it is and always has been tied together.

The lowering of wages is part of the deal of economics, it is not something that is not expected nor actually a bad thing if it is done right without government intervention.

The real issues isn't wages to begin with, it is the amount of work that we have and the dollar losing strength due to the forced adjustments to shore up exports - pretty d*mn foolish.

So do some research.

Go find out what the amount of exports we have and find out what amount we need to increase them to come out with a net gain. THEN start to figure out how to dismantle our productivity in order to increase the Man Hours to increase jobs while planning on how to convince the powers in Washington to reduce taxes and do away with a lot of the regulations that stifle jobs.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Oiler,
What's your point?

Learn how economics work and learn the history of ours and the worlds economy - it is and always has been tied together.

The lowering of wages is part of the deal of economics, it is not something that is not expected nor actually a bad thing if it is done right without government intervention.

The real issues isn't wages to begin with, it is the amount of work that we have and the dollar losing strength due to the forced adjustments to shore up exports - pretty d*mn foolish.

So do some research.

Go find out what the amount of exports we have and find out what amount we need to increase them to come out with a net gain. THEN start to figure out how to dismantle our productivity in order to increase the Man Hours to increase jobs while planning on how to convince the powers in Washington to reduce taxes and do away with a lot of the regulations that stifle jobs.

I bet its only a bad thing if it happens to you, your so full of crap. If you were half as smart as u act or think you are you wouldnt be stuck in whatever it is you do now, so who needs a enocomincs lesson?. you do.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Oiler,
What's your point?

Learn how economics work and learn the history of ours and the worlds economy - it is and always has been tied together.

The lowering of wages is part of the deal of economics, it is not something that is not expected nor actually a bad thing if it is done right without government intervention.

The real issues isn't wages to begin with, it is the amount of work that we have and the dollar losing strength due to the forced adjustments to shore up exports - pretty d*mn foolish.

So do some research.

Go find out what the amount of exports we have and find out what amount we need to increase them to come out with a net gain. THEN start to figure out how to dismantle our productivity in order to increase the Man Hours to increase jobs while planning on how to convince the powers in Washington to reduce taxes and do away with a lot of the regulations that stifle jobs.

I bet its only a bad thing if it happens to you, your so full of crap. If you were half as smart as u act or think you are you wouldnt be stuck in whatever it is you do now, so who needs a enocomincs lesson?. you do. The issue isnt wages? How you think anyone is going to compete with 1.00 or 2.00 an hr wages and in alot of cases even less. nevermind, its useless. nobody knows as much as you. Go ahead with your wishes of people losing things, It will come back to bit ya.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Guess the UAW is nothing more then a shadow of its old self ahh Oiler....it certainly ain't your dady's union anymore, and if the employees were smart, they'd dump them all together....
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
No it isnt, times are a changing, and no, I wouldnt want to get rid of them if I still worked there. As the wages get lower for the autoworkers they only get even lower at the supplier plants, as wages go down so does the money they all have to spend, so people buy less, now we dont need to make as much product, so we dont need to ship as much either, you see, ur hope and dreams of busting the unions and your hope of there wages going down affects more then just the autoworkers.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I bet its only a bad thing if it happens to you, your so full of crap. If you were half as smart as u act or think you are you wouldnt be stuck in whatever it is you do now, so who needs a enocomincs lesson?. you do. The issue isnt wages? How you think anyone is going to compete with 1.00 or 2.00 an hr wages and in alot of cases even less. nevermind, its useless. nobody knows as much as you. Go ahead with your wishes of people losing things, It will come back to bit ya.

But see it did happen to me and I don't want others to suffer like I have. At first I blamed the company for it until I learned how it really works. I took that same position that they only care about profits and screw the people who actually matters but again it took me a while to learn the truth.

I am out of my career and unlike you guys who just put together a car by putting parts together, my job was a lot harder, a lot more demanding and a lot more competitive than you could ever understand or even handle. My industry, Information Technology is global, there is no physical item that needs to be worked on in person, like a press that needs a die setter to adjust it, and my work could be done by some guy names Gupta in India while he is sitting at home watching some Bollywood movie with his wife and kids. I had to set myself apart from the idiots leaving college with degrees in order to survive but alas I worked in the real world.

I am stuck here, doing this work because there are no jobs here simply because it is not a right to work state.

So When I say learn, I mean learn. It is not a bash any thing other than ignorance that prevails in this country by people who set themselves up by believing in a system that truly fails every time there are problems like this. If you want to believe the propaganda, go ahead but the problem is you will continued to be fooled by those who controlled you for years.

The fact is what I said, our economy is connected to the rest of the world, our economy has been dependent on exports and imports for the past 200 years and it will never change.

I told you to go and see for yourself what I am talking about but your refusal and assumptions show me why you actually post what you posted.

So here are a few things.

First we live in a different world than it was 20 years ago. We as a country do not need ten workers to do the job that 5 can do. THAT IS A FACT and it is called increased productivity. Our entire economy has improved to the point that an entire industry like the automotive industry does not need the level of labor that they needed even in the 80's to build a product.

Second the real problem with exports is they make up less than 12% of GDP during good times and this idiotic push that has been happening won't push the economy forward or create enough jobs because of the first reason - our productivity is still increasing and any new production will not revert back to antique ways of making things.

The third thing is that there is what is called opportunity costs involved. In order to have a high wage, we must have a strong dollar but in order for our exports to rise, we must weaken the dollar to make the products attractive to those foreign buyers. The cost is either the wage or the dollar but nothing in between. If the people want inflated wages, which the unionized auto worker actually does get, then they have to give up the security of having a lot of jobs in the market.

The fourth thing is that for the past two centuries, the system of trade has been simple to figure out; when the cost of living goes up, so does the cost of goods and when the cost of goods goes up, exports drop, when exports drop, so does work and wages. When we, the US produced Chevrolet and exported them, the people overseas bought them because they were cheap for them to buy. When the cost of the car went up because the labor costs went up with the increase of the standard of living and more demand of overseas products increased, it eventually became cheaper to buy a Seat (Spanish made car) than the Chevrolet. That in turn slowed exports down and then the people who were producing the Seat made more money increasing their standard of living and then the demand for cheaper products came about so they were buying Chevrolet's again. It is a big circle. What happened was a big wave of prosperity and then recession happened over and over again. Money shifted from there to here back over there. FDR tried to correct some of this, Taft and Wilson tried too but nothing can stop it except a planned economy and we do not want that. By the way that was the reason we went off the gold standard in '33.

So when I said learn, I meant learn. Don't take my word for it, it is simple and clear economics that has been around for 250 years.
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
But see it did happen to me and I don't want others to suffer like I have. At first I blamed the company for it until I learned how it really works. I took that same position that they only care about profits and screw the people who actually matters but again it took me a while to learn the truth.

I am out of my career and unlike you guys who just put together a car by putting parts together, my job was a lot harder, a lot more demanding and a lot more competitive than you could ever understand or even handle. My industry, Information Technology is global, there is no physical item that needs to be worked on in person, like a press that needs a die setter to adjust it, and my work could be done by some guy names Gupta in India while he is sitting at home watching some Bollywood movie with his wife and kids. I had to set myself apart from the idiots leaving college with degrees in order to survive but alas I worked in the real world.

I am stuck here, doing this work because there are no jobs here simply because it is not a right to work state.

So When I say learn, I mean learn. It is not a bash any thing other than ignorance that prevails in this country by people who set themselves up by believing in a system that truly fails every time there are problems like this. If you want to believe the propaganda, go ahead but the problem is you will continued to be fooled by those who controlled you for years.

The fact is what I said, our economy is connected to the rest of the world, our economy has been dependent on exports and imports for the past 200 years and it will never change.

I told you to go and see for yourself what I am talking about but your refusal and assumptions show me why you actually post what you posted.

So here are a few things.

First we live in a different world than it was 20 years ago. We as a country do not need ten workers to do the job that 5 can do. THAT IS A FACT and it is called increased productivity. Our entire economy has improved to the point that an entire industry like the automotive industry does not need the level of labor that they needed even in the 80's to build a product.

Second the real problem with exports is they make up less than 12% of GDP during good times and this idiotic push that has been happening won't push the economy forward or create enough jobs because of the first reason - our productivity is still increasing and any new production will not revert back to antique ways of making things.

The third thing is that there is what is called opportunity costs involved. In order to have a high wage, we must have a strong dollar but in order for our exports to rise, we must weaken the dollar to make the products attractive to those foreign buyers. The cost is either the wage or the dollar but nothing in between. If the people want inflated wages, which the unionized auto worker actually does get, then they have to give up the security of having a lot of jobs in the market.

The fourth thing is that for the past two centuries, the system of trade has been simple to figure out; when the cost of living goes up, so does the cost of goods and when the cost of goods goes up, exports drop, when exports drop, so does work and wages. When we, the US produced Chevrolet and exported them, the people overseas bought them because they were cheap for them to buy. When the cost of the car went up because the labor costs went up with the increase of the standard of living and more demand of overseas products increased, it eventually became cheaper to buy a Seat (Spanish made car) than the Chevrolet. That in turn slowed exports down and then the people who were producing the Seat made more money increasing their standard of living and then the demand for cheaper products came about so they were buying Chevrolet's again. It is a big circle. What happened was a big wave of prosperity and then recession happened over and over again. Money shifted from there to here back over there. FDR tried to correct some of this, Taft and Wilson tried too but nothing can stop it except a planned economy and we do not want that. By the way that was the reason we went off the gold standard in '33.

So when I said learn, I meant learn. Don't take my word for it, it is simple and clear economics that has been around for 250 years.

First, I never put JUST a car together, I didnt work in a assembly plant.

Second, I doubt very much that Michigans whole problem is because it is a right to work state, there are many right to work states that people cant find jobs in and even if they find a job it doesnt pay enough to afford even rent.

The problem with a global ecomony is kinda like us being in a war, they dont play by the same rules we do. They dont care how much they pollete, they dont care about safetly of workers, the govs over there subdize certain industries so they will be low cost no matter what, until there cost either rise to the point of us being competitive or the USA will have to come down to there level. simple

You know as well as me that there are so many reason to what is going on here in this country, the list goes on n on. The corportations have been working for 20 yrs to export all manufacturing in this country because of our safetly and pollution laws that are quite expensive but yet as i see it, needed. A corportions job is to make profits, period, at whatever cost to the people. The problem we now face is we dont have anything to put people back to work in, Construction? not for many many years, we cant spend our way out as in the past because we dont build anything here anymore, thats why the stimulas package wont work, we have out-sourced so many manufactoring jobs that paid well and we dont have jobs for those people, If it wasnt for the tech boom we would have been in this recession a long time ago, but now even those jobs have been out-sourced. So how do we come back? To be homest, I dont have any idea untill there is another boom item like tech.

As far as the wage arguement goes, what u say isnt all true, even if wages went up in most cases productivity went up quicker then wages, so where was the need to raise prices? What is going on now has been put in place by our gov and the corportations over the last 20 yrs or more.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Greg is correct...The world is changing and it does not need us anymore except as consumers....the world is getting developed and the rules have changed greatly...we just can not compete at this time unless we went back to 5 bucks an hour...we produce little and consume greatly....a companies job is to make profits and grow and re-invest...not to share with employees....that is a union mentality...Unions have no business in a companies books...
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
Greg is correct...The world is changing and it does not need us anymore except as consumers....the world is getting developed and the rules have changed greatly...we just can not compete at this time unless we went back to 5 bucks an hour...we produce little and consume greatly....a companies job is to make profits and grow and re-invest...not to share with employees....that is a union mentality...Unions have no business in a companies books...

not to share? isnt that what got the unions started in the first place? And I think your wrong, I know in this day and age the companies feel they owe no one anything, but i believe they owe the cities, counties, state, the country, something. On another thread you talk about John at Load1 being fair with the drivers and thats why you are there, So if I read you right, John should just start screwing the drivers to make more profit, theres always someone to take your spot. Maybe Load1 has a union, why else would John share with you drivers?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
not to share? isnt that what got the unions started in the first place? And I think your wrong, I know in this day and age the companies feel they owe no one anything, but i believe they owe the cities, counties, state, the country, something. On another thread you talk about John at Load1 being fair with the drivers and thats why you are there, So if I read you right, John should just start screwing the drivers to make more profit, theres always someone to take your spot. Maybe Load1 has a union, why else would John share with you drivers?

A company moves to a state with lets say get enticements..the pay back is jobs...local people working, getting a pay check, paying taxes that weren't available had the company not moved there..spending their wages in local stores, supporting local activities and yet other businesses .I thinks that is about even...

John could start screwing us over like others are doing this very day...what is the payback on that? Bigger profits? How about more aggrevation? Driver turnover that costs money IE more recruiting staff and running orientation and handing out so called FREE pizza....why not pay a few cents more and sleep at night? These VOLUME carriers can kiss my grits...
 

Oilerman1957

Expert Expediter
A company moves to a state with lets say get enticements..the pay back is jobs...local people working, getting a pay check, paying taxes that weren't available had the company not moved there..spending their wages in local stores, supporting local activities and yet other businesses .I thinks that is about even...

John could start screwing us over like others are doing this very day...what is the payback on that? Bigger profits? How about more aggrevation? Driver turnover that costs money IE more recruiting staff and running orientation and handing out so called FREE pizza....why not pay a few cents more and sleep at night? These VOLUME carriers can kiss my grits...

But you just said it, John provides job, recruiting? thats no biggie, your easily replaced.

A company moving doesnt create jobs, it just moved them from another state or city, so where are jobs being made? there are people that are now umployed in the other state, so what about the local stores in the city that just lost those jobs? or the taxes for that city or state? Yep, your right, companies get tax breaks by moving, advoiding helping pay for the school systems in those states, paying no properity taxes, who do you think has to make that up? the people that live there, thats who. Companies get breaks on the water they use, the sewer rates, therefore raising the rates for those who live there. Oh how the corporations have done such a good job of dangling that carrot. Its a shame what it is.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Guess I was referring to a NEW start up business...when states compete against each other to get the plant and give away the store literally...in one way it does screw the taxpayers in the short term...but if it is successful the paybacks can be even bigger....

I was once a dept manager in a med. plant....the workers got rid of the union...which was good as the US parent did not shut us down as productivity rose because we could now do flexible scheduling for product demands...this is a sad thing...I had to evaluate workers risks as in physical condition and we needed to drop our health costs and insurance/liability....15 people were pick at high risk/cost...2 weeks notice BUT in leu of notice and extra 2 weeks were paid and severance for years of service and out the door THAT day...most were good people...they had no legal standing as their jobs were literally bought out by the letter of the law...

fate being as it was...I too was being evaluated...I was number 16....so goes the world...
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
harley davidson engine plant workers in waukesha wi have also accepted half wages for new hires. this was done maybe 2 years ago. willie g came forward and told the union that if they didn't accept half wages for new hires the brand would not be price competitive and the plant would move elsewhere. they had the option to be employed or unemployed. they chose employment.

they currently have told the kc plant to accept wage decreases or lose production to york pa. their franklin wi dc has been closed and recently they have won 25 million dollars from the state in tax incentives to keep production here.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Unions wanted their share of the $$$ in good times..now in bad times...time to give some back....only fair...
 
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