I wonder how Obama will react

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hey Greg, as an interesting side note, my 11th grade history teacher, Paul Manard, liked to trace the cause of WWI back to the mid 1500's. I don't know if he was right or not, but, he did not teach dates, he taught concepts. Great teacher, he is dead now but I will never forget him. The most important thing I learned from him was how to think for myself.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
What ever you want to believe.
Same to ya .....

I for one am very tired of hearing us blamed for everything wrong in the world.
Sorry - but I have never gone there - I there is no way I possibly could - because I know that would be untrue.

However, just as you are tired of the above, I am tired of the "America-can-do-no-wrong" crowd - those who refuse to take an honest look - and engage in a rational analysis - and attempt to deflect the attention away from the real issue: Are some of the things that we are doing making things better - or are they actually making it worse ?

Such a position is the height of irresponsibility - and is the epitome of someone who refuses to admit any culpability for the current state of affairs within the world.

It's an "it's-all-their-fault" ... an "it-doesn't have-anything to-do-with-me" position .... which is sheer lunacy, if from no other standpoint than mere survival.

None of what I read or hear matches to what I learned over a lifetime. But, that's ok, it's all our fault, all we have to do is go away and the world will be perfect. Russia is not involved, China is not involved, North Korea is not involved, just us. We did it all.
That is an utterly disingenuous attempt to twist my position, and no doubt the position of many, many others.

If you really want to inform yourself of the actual present situation (rather than relying on assumptions about how things might be, based on some stale-dated knowledge and experiences from back in the good old days) I would suggest that for starters, you might want to pickup several books by Micheal Scheurer (<--- click for link), among them:

Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq

Imperial Hubris: Why The West Is Losing The War On Terror (<--- click for link)

He has a third, more recent book - Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America - which I have not read yet - that ought to provide some interesting insights from a slightly more current perspective.

Considering that Mr Scheurer was a 22 year veteran analyst of the CIA, was specifically focused on the Middle East and the emerging Islamist terrorist threat, and was the guy that formed and headed (Chief of) the Bin Laden Issue Station, he might just have some unique insights on the nature of things in the Middle East, the Islamist Threat, and what is driving it.

It isn't a pretty picture - and if we allow things continue as they have (meaning our actions specifically), it is likely to get much, much worse - with us having contributed to, and enabled, pretty much the entirety of the Islamic world to become radicalized against us.

I have no doubt that if we just crawled into a hole that none of those "bad guys" would ever do anything like they have been doing for years, their reign of rape and murder across the world is likely our fault too. Right?
UTTERLY WRONG

And of course, you know that that isn't what I'm saying (I do assume that you are at least bright enough .....)

But like I said - if you truly believe that we are doing nothing in the world (I realize that such a statement is merely just an attempt to minimize culpability - and one that is, in fact, completely ludicrous on it's face) - well then those allowing themselves the luxury of such delusions probably have what's coming.

Me personally, I can't afford it - neither can my children, or their children, or their children's children .....
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
One must always go back to the "good ole days" so to speak since this mess started long before I got in that business and will continue long after I am dead.

I did not say we were doing nothing in the world, just not handling Iran correctly.

As to always being right or wrong, neither can ever be right, as you and I well know. I will tell you one thing, I think we are far more in the right than Iran is, or China, or North Korea, or Russia for that matter. As many mistakes as we may make we do not behave as those pigs do. You have to go back a long way into history to find when the United States was involved in mass murder, unless you count abortion as mass murder as I do. Of course that is a favorite pet of the left, kinda fits, eh?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Rlent....

Do you think...now this is strictly opinion ok?

America would be so diligent in the M.E. if oil were not an issue?

Why not sanctions? like we are doing in other "evil" countries.

I mean just look at N. Korea..It is a poor country and has little that would benefit the U.S...you think that is why we are not at war with them?

The atrocities in some African countries..are we battling them?

And then there is CHINA the worse case of hypocracy ever perpetrated by the western world. Where untold thousands have died for just questioning the government.

A country that suppresses freedoms and human rights, a communist country no less...

And yet we've let them own us up to the tune of almost 3 TRILLION $$ in US bonds alone!

Somethings not right, out of balance.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Why not sanctions? like we are doing in other "evil" countries.

Sanctions?

Didn't we use sanctions in the 30's and 40's and we caused a war with Japan?

I mean just look at N. Korea..It is a poor country and has little that would benefit the U.S...you think that is why we are not at war with them?

We are at with war with them, we have a truce with them. We can start firing anytime without congressional approval or nuke them without a problem - I think Japan is thinking about nuking them just in case. NK's real target is Japan and the other successful Asian countries, not SK and the US.

The atrocities in some African countries..are we battling them?

The problem, like the problem with other things say Food for Oil, is the UN. Just this past week there has been a serious complaints about the UN peace keepers being involved with and allowing killing of civilians in the Congo. The UN is complicit in the death of civilians while their charter forbids such action, much like the issue of raping civilians who were being protected under the blue flag. Nothing even comes to it, because it is all a non-issue.

If the US wanted to do something about it, we would have the world against us because it is an African issue, not a US issue and the Africa Union needs to solve their own problems but wants our money to do so. The UN is part of the underlying problems in Africa and has pretty much failed to stop the killings and the slavery issues that still take place on most of the continent.

By the way, I don't know if you noticed something but when we did actually invade Iraq, we uncovered some pretty bad things that the UN was doing. I think that this entire hatred of the US on the Iraq issue has been coming from the UN over the oil for food scam.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Debate and discuss with who? An enemy hell bent on destroying this country? Obama? Who does not have a clue? Too much "talk" has got us into this mess. Talk is cheap. Those who wish to kill us know that and laugh as we propose new sanctions, treaties etc and use that time to build their military with Russia and China helping. Talk away and allow them to get stronger. Just as in Europe in the 1930's. Worked real good that time, should again now.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Jaminjim... I am trying to follow this thread but cannot find the central theme in question. Clearly, I am overlooking or missing something. Threads go astray and I get lost. Please restate the salient points and I will try to keep up.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Ah yes the problem is that some would have to debate with others and give reasons why something will or will not work. Instead some would rather just state the obvious.

If I were to know about about US politics and foreign policies I could debate better...

But I'll not concede that interfering and killing anyone that opposes Western interests is a solution neither..that would be to assume that ours are better...

There are assumptions out there that THEY are out to get us....I ask WHY?
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Why? Let's see, where to start? The radical muslim world has been attacking the west on and off for centuries. Most of the world's other major religious have joined the modern world, except, part of Islam that is dominated by Shirea(sp?) law. Many in that religion are fighting that but are killed off as they fight.

Russia and China have long pursued a path of world domination and have murdered countless numbers in the process. They are in bed with the more radical countries in the world, like Iran, Syria, and North Korea to name a few. Funding them in their attacks on the west.

The left in general as always been about domination. They chose to rule by fear and would build a world government based on terror. Rape, murder, torture and total control of every aspect of human life is the hallmark of the left.

Sorry, OVM, nothing is as simple as saying that we cause the problems. Lebanon should be a good example. Once, not all that long ago called the Paris of the Middle East, now, a waste land. That was done with the backing of Iran, Syria and the Soviets.

Isolationism did not work prior to WWI or WWII. It will not work now. Fight it over there or over here, take your pick, but we will fight it, sooner or latter. The sooner we get real about this and take it on the fewer deaths and the cost will be lowere. Wait, allow them to build a real military and watch out.

Ask your uncles if letting Hitler build an army was a good idea, that is how it is.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The radical muslim world has been attacking the west on and off for centuries. Most of the world's other major religious have joined the modern world, except, part of Islam that is dominated by Shirea(sp?) law. Many in that religion are fighting that but are killed off as they fight.

OK there is a lot more to this than what you are saying. Shari law is not issue but the way it is interpreted and by whom. For the most part we can compare it to the far far religious right here in this country, especially some of the fringe Christian groups who only see one way.

The left in general as always been about domination. They chose to rule by fear and would build a world government based on terror. Rape, murder, torture and total control of every aspect of human life is the hallmark of the left.

The left needs war to be successful, be it a war on poverty or a war that kills people, their mantra is a crisis needs to be addressed and what better crisis can there be but a war on something.

Isolationism did not work prior to WWI or WWII.

Actually it could have but Wilson, like FDR needed to be involved to expand power.

Ask your uncles if letting Hitler build an army was a good idea, that is how it is.

What could actually be done. The treaties setup after the war to reduce fighting forces of most of the countries which could have stopped him in the name of preventing any future wars. It all open the door for Hitler and he took chances that no one called him on which allowed him to move forward in big steps. Could someone stop him? No.

Nevertheless most of the problems we have today with any Muslims and terrorists are directly related to the president we had in 1977 - Jimmy "Peanut Brain" Carter.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I do believe that we could have stopped Hitler prior to his move into the Rhineland. Once England went down that path of appeisment there was no turning back. WWII was unavoidable.

I do totally 100% agree that this latest bunch of trouble with Arabs was caused by the stupidity of Jimmy Carter. He was given very good council on the problems in the Middle East and he ignored it. Then, after he more or less assisted in Iran's fall he again ignored warnings on what was going down with the attack on the Embassy, and the rest is history. He then ignored information where those hostages were and they, at that time, could have been rescued, (we had good help ready in country) and did not move to get them out. Then, after being told not to mount a rescue due to the sandstorm season, he did anyway and we had a disaster.

Clinton and Obama are cut from the same "stupid" cloth as he was.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Looks like all the US meddling back to Carter days created an enemy we are fighting to-day...turned the M.E. Really against us...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Not quite right, OVM. Carter believed that the (my spelling will be very wrong here) Aotolla Komenii (whew) Iatolla Cola was a "good guy" and pulled all support for the Shaw. The Shaw was fighting the radical bunch. I think it was Andrew Young that said that the "new group" leading Iran was going to be the best thing to happen to the Middle East.

Carter was a wacko. He had no idea in the world what he was doing. By the way, my agency and most of the other 3 letter agencies were not there working the M.E. problem. Look at where Iran is located in relation to the Soviet Union and some of their more sensitive areas, learn a little about radio signal propagation and you can figure out why we were there.

Why do you have to assume that we are the cause of the problem? Why is it you find it hard to buy that there are just a whole lot of plain old nasty people out there?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Looks like all the US meddling back to Carter days created an enemy we are fighting to-day...turned the M.E. Really against us...
.... not exactly ..... you need to look a lot farther back than Carter .... read the links I posted in the other thread about CIA (and British) involvement in Iran and the overthrow of their government ..... as but one example of the more fundamental issues ... it goes back further than Carter .....
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Not quite right, OVM. Carter believed that the (my spelling will be very wrong here) Aotolla Komenii (whew) Iatolla Cola was a "good guy" and pulled all support for the Shaw. The Shaw was fighting the radical bunch. I think it was Andrew Young that said that the "new group" leading Iran was going to be the best thing to happen to the Middle East.

Carter was a wacko. He had no idea in the world what he was doing. By the way, my agency and most of the other 3 letter agencies were not there working the M.E. problem. Look at where Iran is located in relation to the Soviet Union and some of their more sensitive areas, learn a little about radio signal propagation and you can figure out why we were there.

Why do you have to assume that we are the cause of the problem? Why is it you find it hard to buy that there are just a whole lot of plain old nasty people out there?

Because something went drastically wrong somewhere...either our dumping of Afphganistan after the Russians left or a whole compilation of foreign policies that were ill conceived.

BTW. I do not assume we are totally at error.

Oh yeah you talk about history and how it comes back to bit us in the butt....Well here it is....I hate to say this but preventing some of these wars has had a bad effect on the world...this world economy is built on war/destruction...Millions of MORE should be dead BUT they live on because of the West..The cultures we are meddling in have 1,000's of years of history and here some upstart countries are telling them/advising, how they should live their lives. The world population is too big...
 
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