I am ANGRY....and do not know where to direct it.....

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I just don't believe you or Turtle when you claim your maintenance costs are on par with an American Slop Bucket...

But, when it comes down to a strictly straight cost for maintenance and initial cost, the ASB wins.

Which is it, "on par" or "strictly straight cost"?

If you're going by "strictly straight cost" then you're right, the ABS wins hands down. But the maintenance costs of a Sprinter are absolutely "on par" with that of an ABS, or a straight truck, for that matter. If the maintenance costs for a Sprinter were wildly out of whack, there wouldn't be any of them out here. It's as simple as that.

The costs for a Sprinter are largely mitigated by longer intervals between maintenance and the significant savings in fuel economy, and less slightly so by more or higher paying loads for Sprinters. Depending on the Slop Bucket and the Sprinter, the difference in fuel cost can be between $2000 and $5000 a year in favor of the Sprinter. That's, at most, the price difference in annual maintenance for a Sprinter. So we're back to par. It's relative.

It's also better if people know how to calculate their fuel mileage. Too many use what it costs to fill up on a long trip of mostly Interstate miles, instead of their actual costs over a month, quarter or year. Rarely without fail, the 18 MPG in the Slop Bucket becomes closer to 16 or less when they figure total fuel costs over a three month period with all-miles driven in the calculation. It's not about what it costs you to run the vehicle from A to B, it's about what it costs you to run the vehicle from January to January. To make it a little easier I know use an app on the phone where I record all fuel purchases and odometer readings, and it'll tell me fuel costs per mile for any given period, including YTD, last month, last year, whatever. My fuel costs for 2012, including idling, Espar usage yields a 22.93 MPG for all miles driven on the odometer. That's 16.5 cents a mile fuel cost. A 16 MPG slop bucket driving, say, 70000 miles on the odometer at $3.50 a gallon is 22 cents a mile, and a total cost difference of nearly four grand.

This hypothetical is just that, but neither the Sprinter nor the Slop Buckets numbers are wildly out of what with reality. And in this scenario, the Slop Bucket driver is paying nearly $4000 a year more in fuel than the Sprinter, while at the same time laughing at the Sprinter driver for paying $2000 or $3000 more in annual maintenance than he is. Suddenly we're back to "it's all relative" again.

In that light, if you compare strictly straight cost for maintenance and initial cost, the Sprinter wins every time over a straight truck. Which is why comparing Slop Buckets and Sprinters makes exactly as much sense as comparing Sprinters to straight trucks.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I get 10 MPG, ALL miles, even DH to the repair shop or home from Florida to Michigan. I AVERAGE 2.50 per mile. That is DOWN from last years numbers. NO sprinter can beat that.
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Are you sure about your numbers ?
After all you work for that double-brokering company with company trailers and flat rate trucks.

No answer needed. I KNOW your numbers are real.
 
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Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
But again Turtle...you are using numbers from your Sprinter...not the numbers from a newer year model with the skyrocketing repair bills and lower fuel mileage. I understand your discussion with Moot. That conversation is about 2 older vehicles, both near the end of their life cycles (sorry Moot :) ). Conversations concerning Sprinter vans are a HUGE misrepresentation of the facts when using numbers from one of the few year models that MB produced good vans. Those vans are no longer available as new vehicles and haven't been for years.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
You have to consider that some companies get good rates for thei cargo vans and sprinters.. This year my rats to the truck including deadhead has been close to 1.27 a mile. Where as, Panther pays what .90 max including FSC. No wonder you would think it might be impossible.
Try this Jan TTT was 11k Feb was slow and March is so so. Loads have been a max of 2.1 per mile law to SLC then drive to Boise to pick up 1.35 going to Cleveland did a sea to high point 1.37 per mile lowest rate this year has been 1.25. Plus none of these loads did I need to huddle to delver them. That's how most agents at LEAM work.

I don't think you are comparing accordingly. If so, everyone would be at Landstar. The reality is, you guys do a lot deadheading and that is factored in your rate. You are providing a loaded rate only. Where do you get Panther vans run at .90 cents? That isn't factual and I don't even run a van.
I'm at Panther at gee we do 4.00 a mile loads. That isn't reflective of what the AVERAGE would be.
They get compensated as others for deadhead, bonuses, layover, and relocation that aren't included in their base rate. Regardless of the carrier, you have to look at the WHOLE picture, not just the part you want to look at. Looking at your rates, I don't see them as that much different than at other carriers if you look at ALL of it.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
But again Turtle...you are using numbers from your Sprinter...not the numbers from a newer year model with the skyrocketing repair bills and lower fuel mileage.
Yes, I know, and you're right. But there are many people who think Sprinters, all of them, new, old, doesn't matter, are expensive money pits. And that's simply not true. These new model Sprinters, many of them are money pits, and until the particulars get worked out and solved I wouldn't go near one.

I understand your discussion with Moot. That conversation is about 2 older vehicles, both near the end of their life cycles (sorry Moot :) ).
It's interesting the use of the term "end of life" when talking about a Sprinter. Not you necessarily, but a lot of people still make the basic mistake of viewing a Sprinter as "just another cargo van, only more expensive." Case in point, Purgoose commented on the fact that OVM spent $12,000 for a new engine for a 10 year old Sprinter. He and a lot of people think that's insane. He even noted that he wouldn't even consider doing that with even a good running 10 year old truck (apparently not even a 10 year old Peterbuilt in excellent condition other than the motor). That's the slop bucket mindset (further reinforced with his comment that people depreciate vehicles over 5 years, as if that is supposed to mean the vehicle should be buried after 5 years because it's not longer viable or worth anything), and it's such an ingrained mindset that they cannot even see the difference between a Sprinter and a Slop Bucket. There is no difference, other than how much the Sprinter costs. It's so deeply ingrained that they can't even see that an 05 Sprinter in 2012 isn't even 10 years old. They think if it's a 2005 and it's one minute past 2010 then it's game over and it might as well be 10 years old.

The fact is, if you keep the vehicle maintained, replace parts as necessary, you can do that for the long term, including replacing transmissions and engines and suspensions and whatever else there is, for a really, really long time, and do it cheaper than getting a new truck every 5 years. Some of those UPS delivery trucks are 20 and 30 years old. They just keep them maintained, and replace whatever needs replacing. If you don't keep the entire vehicle maintained and in good working order, then a $2000 repair might not be worth it, but if it's in good shape, $16,000 to replace virtually everything in front of the firewall, like OVM did, becomes not only worth it, but a smart, cost effective move.

Those who view their slop buckets to be used and abused and then discarded after five years as a consumable, that's fine, but there is another philosophy that also works, that of viewing the vehicle as an asset to be protected and maintained. Each philosophy requires an entirely different mindset. If you have a slop bucket mindset, a Sprinter is not for you.
 
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Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
I won't argue any of that. I do tend to believe that the same person who can maintain a Sprinter for a longer than normal life span could also maintain a GM/Ford product for a longer term as well. I won't argue whether either or both of them could be run indefinitely by replacing/maintaining....because I don't know.

I don't think the newer Sprinters are a total loss either. Even with the stupidly outrageous repair costs, the fuel mileage makes up for a lot. Sprinter builds a great expedite vehicle. It's the EPA mandated emissions equipment that is causing the repair costs.

I talked to the OP yesterday about his van. My personal opinion is that as time goes by and Sprinter owners learn how to get around some of these absurd repair costs, the Sprinter may again regain the lead in lower "total" operating costs....a more substantial lead. I would like to see a forum or thread devoted totally to this collaboration of ideas and resources to help owners of these later model Sprinters avoid the high repair bills when possible. There seems to be a fair amount of helpful information available. It needs to be accumulated in a controlled and easy to find place. These general threads go off on way too many tangents and confuse the very people who they could potentially be helping. Again... my opinion.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I would like to see a forum or thread devoted totally to this collaboration of ideas and resources to help owners of these later model Sprinters avoid the high repair bills when possible. There seems to be a fair amount of helpful information available. It needs to be accumulated in a controlled and easy to find place.
As with most things on the Internet, what you'd like to see already exists.

Sprinter - Sprinter-Forum

Owning a Sprinter requires a certain commitment to educating yourself about the vehicle, it's problems, quirks, and all the tips and tricks. If you have a Sprinter, especially one of the newer NCV3 models, or are contemplating getting one, you need to spend a lot of time reading those forums. There are a lot of smart people there. It's time well spent.
 

beachbum

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Because I just called them a couple of weeks ago to see what Panthr paid for sprinters. That's how I know. Most of the time we deadhead we do get extra, all we do is ask.


providing a loaded rate only. Where do you get Panther vans run at .90 cents? That isn't factual and I don't even run a van.
I'm at Panther at gee we do 4.00 a mile loads. That isn't reflective of what the AVERAGE would be.
They get compensated as others for deadhead, bonuses, layover, and relocation that aren't included in their base rate. Regardless of the carrier, you have to look at the WHOLE picture, not just the part you want to look at. Looking at your rates, I don't see them as that much different than at other carriers if you look at ALL of it.[/QUOTE]
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'm sure they would be. OVM is the exception to the rule. Lets consider OVM has been doing this for a lot of years. He Turtle and a few others know the game inside and out so if they were to fail it would take some very deep thought process to come with why, and I don't think Sprinter would be in that consideration. The vast majority out here doing the van thing are say 3 yrs and less. They come and go like running water, but it's no differant than that of the tt owner operator. Everybody sees the dollar a mile and don't see anything else.
As far as being happier, well I know of several people in ST's that would like that. When you think about it, it takes as much to run a Sprinter as a Straight Truck. Maybe not the initial investment but maintenance and break down I think run neck and neck.
When you think about it you can buy used C/Van for say $10k and spend everyother night in a motel and still save money. You can make deals with motel chains and guarantee so many nights a year and get some great rates.
But getting off track.

The way I seen it I had 3 options...replace engine, replace van or retire myself...other then engine and a few ther things that were original...and fortunately I had the resources..I went for the whole 9 yards....after many years in this biz I knew this day would come.
The deed was done....have 74,000 miles on new engine and NOT 1 TRIP to the shop....not 1..
I tell ya!
NOW all this is history and means little because the 2010 to present vans are a whole new ball game...all that remains is the thinking behind Mercedes ownership.
 

Rocketman

Veteran Expediter
I wonder if a particulate filter delete has been tried on the new models.
So not only do you have to become a Sprinter technician to own one of these things...now you have to be a criminal? How deep should one go? What's next?....learning how to rob banks to make the payments?

To answer the question...Yes. When I researched vans, I found a few places who said they could do it. I also read of at least one event where doing so got the owner into some deep doo doo...it goes back to that cutting corners stuff.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Which is it, "on par" or "strictly straight cost"?
You left off two words that followed "strictly straight cost", those being for maintenance. My exact words were: " But, when it comes down to a strictly straight cost for maintenance and initial cost, the ASB wins."

Instead, they spout clichés like, "way to expensive, too many problems, can't get parts, can't find anyone to work on it, yada, yada, yada." Yet I've had very few problems, not really any more than any other cargo van, have never had a problem getting parts, have never been more than a second phone call from finding someone to work on it, and the cost hasn't been all that much, either.

I took the two underlined passages as meaning "on par" with a slop bucket. You know; comparable to, similar to, about the same etc. OVM is the only Sprinter owner that I have seen post maintenance costs. His maintenance cost per mile is more than twice that of mine.

It's also better if people know how to calculate their fuel mileage. Too many use what it costs to fill up on a long trip of mostly Interstate miles, instead of their actual costs over a month, quarter or year. Rarely without fail, the 18 MPG in the Slop Bucket becomes closer to 16 or less when they figure total fuel costs over a three month period with all-miles driven in the calculation. It's not about what it costs you to run the vehicle from A to B, it's about what it costs you to run the vehicle from January to January.
The figure of .16/mile fuel cost is total of all fuel put in the tank from the month I bought it, May, 2004 through December, 2012. I calculate the mpg at the pump, fill to fill, pump to an even dollar. I also have a ScanGauge but don't use it for actual fuel mileage. I often forget to reset the gallons after filling.


My fuel costs for 2012, including idling, Espar usage yields a 22.93 MPG for all miles driven on the odometer. That's 16.5 cents a mile fuel cost. A 16 MPG slop bucket driving, say, 70000 miles on the odometer at $3.50 a gallon is 22 cents a mile, and a total cost difference of nearly four grand.
As I mentioned above, my .16/mile fuel cost includes all fuel going back to day one. My fuel costs for 2012 are .21/mile at $3.47/gallon. Your 16.5 cents/mile is very impressive. I don't pay much attention to the price of diesel so I didn't realize the price difference between gas and diesel was so narrow.

Again, I give the fuel economy advantage to the 5 cylinder Sprinters. Comparing maintenance costs for my POS American Slop Bucket to OVM's Sprinter, his are more than double. What is your cost per mile for maintenance?
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Because I just called them a couple of weeks ago to see what Panthr paid for sprinters. That's how I know. Most of the time we deadhead we do get extra, all we do is ask.
[/QUOTE]

May want to call them again or PM Moot for their rates. Even the EO banner says $1.00 plus.
That .90 cents may just represent the paid linehaul miles and nothing else?
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Another consideration that probably should be considered is the cost to insure and interest payments IF someone financed either one. Just another angle to look at. Especially when new vehicles are getting into the 30 to 50k and higher.
 

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
Yes, I know, and you're right. But there are many people who think Sprinters, all of them, new, old, doesn't matter, are expensive money pits. And that's simply not true. These new model Sprinters, many of them are money pits, and until the particulars get worked out and solved I wouldn't go near one.

It's interesting the use of the term "end of life" when talking about a Sprinter. Not you necessarily, but a lot of people still make the basic mistake of viewing a Sprinter as "just another cargo van, only more expensive." Case in point, Purgoose commented on the fact that OVM spent $12,000 for a new engine for a 10 year old Sprinter. He and a lot of people think that's insane. He even noted that he wouldn't even consider doing that with even a good running 10 year old truck (apparently not even a 10 year old Peterbuilt in excellent condition other than the motor). That's the slop bucket mindset (further reinforced with his comment that people depreciate vehicles over 5 years, as if that is supposed to mean the vehicle should be buried after 5 years because it's not longer viable or worth anything), and it's such an ingrained mindset that they cannot even see the difference between a Sprinter and a Slop Bucket. There is no difference, other than how much the Sprinter costs. It's so deeply ingrained that they can't even see that an 05 Sprinter in 2012 isn't even 10 years old. They think if it's a 2005 and it's one minute past 2010 then it's game over and it might as well be 10 years old.

The fact is, if you keep the vehicle maintained, replace parts as necessary, you can do that for the long term, including replacing transmissions and engines and suspensions and whatever else there is, for a really, really long time, and do it cheaper than getting a new truck every 5 years. Some of those UPS delivery trucks are 20 and 30 years old. They just keep them maintained, and replace whatever needs replacing. If you don't keep the entire vehicle maintained and in good working order, then a $2000 repair might not be worth it, but if it's in good shape, $16,000 to replace virtually everything in front of the firewall, like OVM did, becomes not only worth it, but a smart, cost effective move.
XXXXXX

Here we go. To a Fleet operator the Sprinter is just that, another Van. He puts a driver on it and expects a return on his investment. He spent more money on a Sprinter because he expects more from his higher investment. A lot of drivers don't take care of their vehicles nowadays because "It's not theirs syndrome", or they are inexperienced and don't know how. If a driver such as yourself wants to drive and older well maintained Sprinter than go for it. Most of Landstar is older well maintained vehicles. As far as comparing this with UPS, that's rediculous. Show me another company that does what their doing. I did not mean any offense to you or OVM because of what your doing. As a fleet owner you can't do that because the money's not there to support it with hired drivers. Driving your own truck and maintaining your own truck is far different than owning several trucks with several drivers. As Rocketman stated the 05-06-07 models were top of the line, but they've gone down hill ever since. I think even you stated you wouldn't have a new one.
 
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