Ft. Hood Massacre: 12 Dead, 31 Wounded

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
I doubt anyone here at EO would attempt to rationalize or justify Hitler's mass killings. But, they are slobbering to shield poor Nidal behind some supposed defect. What is the cut-off point where responsibility begins??
I'm not sure I'd classify anyone here as trying to shield him behind anything. Until all the facts are in, then by definition, rationalization cannot even occur. The correct term, rather, is speculation. To rationalize is to ascribe one's actions, opinions or motives that, at least on the surface, seem plausible and credible, but in reality are completely unrelated to the actual deal, with the actual deal often being less palatable, less agreeable, less creditable. So, until we actually know the actual deal, the real and genuine bona fine root cause of what he did, everything is pure speculation.

Trying to come up with (speculation) the reasons (A.K.A. the required-for-conviction motive) for what he did is not even close to shielding him behind those reasons. Motives and reasons are not the same as excuses, and even if they were, no excuse can excuse what he did. There is no cut-off point for responsibility, since responsibility is instantaneous.

By the way, for those who keep wanting to separate out "snapped" and "planning" as somehow being mutually exclusive, they're not. Snapped doesn't necessarily mean spontaneous. Snapped is a euphemism for "crazy". People can, do, and have "just snapped" and stayed "just snapped" for days, weeks, months, years. And all the while they are "just snapped" they are sitting there planning something that has "crazy" written all over it.

Most people would agree that there is a difference between a terrorist committing a terrorist act against an innocent public for political, philosophical or religious purposes, and in a disgruntled worker Going Postal on his co-workers. If you look at it even semi-objectively, what Nadal did at Ft Hood is much more akin to Going Postal than a terrorist act. Shooting your co-workers in an enclosed space at Ft Hood is very different from going into downtown Killeen and shooting up the Court Square. The latter would provide much more terror among the general population, and would almost certainly force the government to alter the way that military base is operated (both of which is what modern-day terrorism is designed to do). The former doesn't do any of that.

Regardless of the motivations behind what they do, the one common underlying factor among all shooting rampages is, the shooters are all crazy. Every one of them, without exception.


"Just one man killing indiscriminately."

There ya go. Exactly.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
There is a ton of speculation here, Aristotle...some from right wing blogs and other unreliable sources...some maybe true and some highly suspicious of nature. Only one man knows for sure and that is the Major himself....if he is a martyr he would confess and let the government kill him(execute) to die that way...
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We shall see Turtle, right now it IS all speculation.

I speculate that this is just another in a series of planned attacks on United States military personnel, while un-armed and un-able to defend themselves. It is only the second that succeeded so far. The rest have been stopped prior to execution.

The FACTS will come out during his Court Martial. That is at least ONE good thing. He will be tried under military law and the press has far less input into the outcome of military trial than they do civilian ones. It will most likely be a "capital" case as well. I would go as far as to adding treason to the charges.

Those are just my beliefs.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The politically correct among us will attempt to wrap Major Nidal in the flag of Islam as a means of diverting blame for what this man has done. His religious affiliation has no bearing on the heinous crimes he has committed. By his own hand and volition, Major Nidal murdered 12 and wounded many more.

Nidal will stand trial for MURDER.

We have no evidence at all to conclude this man is "crazy." I am puzzled by those who instinctively align their sympathies with the gunman while 12 dead bodies lie on the ground. This fig leaf defense of insanity is a cheap way to excuse wrongdoing. It is so subjective as to be worthless. Continued confusion between insanity and evil plays into the hands of those who would harm us. Murder is evil. Believing one is carrying on a two-way conversation with a tree is crazy.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The politically correct among us will attempt to wrap Major Nidal in the flag of Islam as a means of diverting blame for what this man has done. His religious affiliation has no bearing on the heinous crimes he has committed. By his own hand and volition, Major Nidal murdered 12 and wounded many more.

Nidal will stand trial for MURDER.

We have no evidence at all to conclude this man is "crazy." I am puzzled by those who instinctively align their sympathies with the gunman while 12 dead bodies lie on the ground. This fig leaf defense of insanity is a cheap way to excuse wrongdoing. It is so subjective as to be worthless. Continued confusion between insanity and evil plays into the hands of those who would harm us. Murder is evil. Believing one is carrying on a two-way conversation with a tree is crazy.

No one is sympatizing at least not me with this nut case...

I just don't agree with the nature of parania being displayed here....The guy should die for these heinious crimes.

A government official speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss the case said an initial review of Hasan's computer use has found no evidence of links to terror groups, or anyone who might have helped plan or push him toward the shooting attack. T
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"His religious affiliation has no bearing on the heinous crimes he has committed."

No bearing? None at all? None whatsoever? Not even a little bit? Really?
Of course it did. Was it the primary motivating factor? Probably not. But I guarantee you that it play at least a small role. Religion always does, in both good and bad decisions.


"We have no evidence at all to conclude this man is "crazy." I am puzzled by those who instinctively align their sympathies with the gunman..."


I'm not sure that there exists such a thing a evidence to conclude "crazy", yet I know it when I see it, and this man by any criteria one chooses to apply is stone cold crazy. No one grabs a gun or two and starts indiscriminatingly shooting people unless they're crazy. You can call him evil, but evil stems more from a religious context versus the good, it's something that is morally wrong or morally objectionable, but its origin actually comes from something that is particularly bad, vicious, wicked and defective all rolled into one. Realistically, crazy works just as well, and means virtually the same thing in such a context as this. But make no mistake, calling him crazy is not in any way showing sympathy. Crazy is as crazy does, and being crazy absolves you of nothing. The "insanity defense" is straight up BS, a clever invention by defense attorneys to get their clients off the hook for something their clients undeniably did. Applause, applause, applause for the defense attorney. Good job on that one. You're on my Potential Need To Hire list. But it's BS just the same.

There are, to be sure, times when homicide is justifiable or excusable, but crazy ain't one of them. And when crazy threatens or becomes a menace to society, crazy needs to be eliminated. The root cause of "crazy" is largely irrelevant insofar as society is concerned. Just get rid of it, git r dun. If the same menacing "crazy" keeps manifesting itself over and over again, society will look for the cause and try to eliminate that as well, but it and the "crazy" both still need to go.


"Continued confusion between insanity and evil plays into the hands of those who would harm us. Murder is evil."


Yes, murder is evil. It's also crazy. "Insane" is a legal term, but "crazy" is the reality. "Insane" is what lawyers and doctors deal with, "crazy" is what the rest of us deal with. Whether or not it is evil depends on whether you want to put it into a religious context of being morally wrong, although society has its own set of morals, too. If you do, that's fine, but he's still crazy.

You can be crazy without being evil, but it's rare to be evil without also being crazy. Crazy can manifest itself in many ways, from talking to plants, mass murder, being an expediter. Most plant talkers and expediters aren't all that evil, though.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Let's see OVM, 9/11, those two soldiers shot in front of that recruiting station earlier this year. The plots to attack other bases. The one at Ft. Dix comes to mind. No paranoia. Just the sense to know that it is VERY possible that this was planned. Recent history proves that. If I get punched in the face by the next 4 strangers that walk up to me you can bet your "shorts" I would assume that the 5th will do the same.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
We only hear about 5% of what is going on and stopped by law enforcement, the other 95% doesn't hit the news at all because of a number of reasons. Some of the really big stuff gets into the news while the more boring routine stuff gets left out.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Turtle: well said - had I read your reply first, I might no have written this:

The politically correct among us will attempt to wrap Major Nidal in the flag of Islam as a means of diverting blame for what this man has done.
Not at all.

His religious affiliation has no bearing on the heinous crimes he has committed.
It would be right to say that it should have no bearing on whether he is held accountable. It certainly may have figured into why he did what he did - although, even if it did, it in no way justifies or excuses it.

By his own hand and volition, Major Nidal murdered 12 and wounded many more. Nidal will stand trial for MURDER.
As he indeed should - and as any person whether sane or insane rightly should.

We have no evidence at all to conclude this man is "crazy."
You have got to be kidding me ?

You think sane people go around killing indiscriminately ?

He is, by his acts alone, utterly insane.

Now maybe with your background you have the fact of his insanity (which is irrefutable in my book) confused with the legal aspects and implications of insanity as they exist in this country currently.

I am puzzled by those who instinctively align their sympathies with the gunman while 12 dead bodies lie on the ground.
And that's where you are making the mistake - assuming that there is sympathy - I certainly have none whatsoever.

This fig leaf defense of insanity is a cheap way to excuse wrongdoing.
Ahhh ..... yes, it is as I thought - you are confusing what American jurisprudence has to say about insanity, and the implications of that, with whether he is actually insane.

The legal aspects of insanity in this country in terms of American jurisprudence are morally wrong, entirely misguided, completely wrong-headed, and only promote and foster irresponsibility.

The fundamental error is to say that people who are insane are not responsible for their actions, therefore should not be held accountable. Sorry - I don't agree.

They certainly are responsible for their actions (it was them that did them - how could they not be ?), and should be held accountable accordingly. You do the crime, then you do the time .... or take the needle as the case may be.

Continued confusion between insanity and evil plays into the hands of those who would harm us.
Only if you are locked into your rather narrow - and utterly misguided - view of insanity, from a legal perspective.

The system is broken in this regard and needs to be fixed.

Murder is evil. Believing one is carrying on a two-way conversation with a tree is crazy.
Both true statements certainly (well, only if the tree doesn't reply :rolleyes:) ..... but the apparent premise that committing evil towards one fellows is somehow not insane is false. Completely and utterly.

Rational, sane people are not evil, and they don't commit evil towards their fellow man. Those who do (evil towards their fellow man) are - to some greater or lesser degree - nuts .... insane ....
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't know Aristotle, Murder has been used as a tool of governments for years. To say that killings like what took place at Ft. Hood have to be the act of an insane person is a stretch. I believe that it is VERY possible that this was the act of a hateful, sane, man who wanted NOTHING more than to kill his enemy. I have NO problem believing that he enlisted for this VERY purpose. I am NOT saying that is fact, but I have no problem with the concept. The Germans and the Japanesse were famous for mass murders of prisoners in WWII. One of the Soviets favorite means of controlling the population was murder and intimidation. NOT all mass murder is that act of an insane, legally or otherwise, person. I cannot go that far.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
I don't know Aristotle, Murder has been used as a tool of governments for years. To say that killings like what took place at Ft. Hood have to be the act of an insane person is a stretch. I believe that it is VERY possible that this was the act of a hateful, sane, man who wanted NOTHING more than to kill his enemy. I have NO problem believing that he enlisted for this VERY purpose. I am NOT saying that is fact, but I have no problem with the concept. The Germans and the Japanesse were famous for mass murders of prisoners in WWII. One of the Soviets favorite means of controlling the population was murder and intimidation. NOT all mass murder is that act of an insane, legally or otherwise, person. I cannot go that far.
Layout... you need to read my posts again. I contend Major Nidal is sane and knew full well what he was doing. Had he planned to murder his victims with a squirt gun, I might conclude he is "crazy."

As a trained medical doctor, Major Nidal knew the bullets in his guns would kill people if he decided to shoot them. I suspect Nidal has been gaming the system for a very long time to get a free medical education and wanted out of his military contract.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Layout... you need to read my posts again. I contend Major Nidal is sane and knew full well what he was doing. Had he planned to murder his victims with a squirt gun, I might conclude he is "crazy."

As a trained medical doctor, Major Nidal knew the bullets in his guns would kill people if he decided to shoot them. I suspect Nidal has been gaming the system for a very long time to get a free medical education and wanted out of his military contract.

Sorry if I mis-read you. I did not mean too. The only thing I might not agree with is that part about gaming to get out. I think that was him just setting up for an insanity plea. I believe that he planed this from the day he enlisted. Again, sorry I mis-understood you.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
RLENT... I respectfully disagree with your statement that rational, sane people are not evil and don't commit evil towards their fellow man. Prisons are full to overflowing with convicts who have committed vile, evil acts towards the most innocent of people. Perhaps, if there was one universally agreed upon definition for evil, we would be coming from the same perspective.

People who do bad things to others are not necessarily insane. Most know the difference between right and wrong and choose wrong anyway. It appears to me that Major Nidal was a very selfish man, concerned only with his own wishes, and in an extreme act of anger chose to harm others.
 
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OntarioVanMan

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RLENT... I respectfully disagree with your statement that rational, sane people are not evil and don't commit evil towards their fellow man. Prisons are full to overflowing with convicts who have committed vile, evil acts towards the most innocent of people. Perhaps, if there was one universally agreed upon definition for evil, we would be coming from the same perspective.

People who do bad things to others are not necessarily insane. Most know the difference between right and wrong and choose wrong anyway. It appears to me that Major Nidal was a very selfish man, concerned only with his own wishes, and in an extreme act of anger chose to harm others.

Yes...all by himself..no conspiracy, no sleeper cell.....his demise was a plan all in his own mind....
After all the Japs used to scream bonzai before their demise...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
And the Soviets NEVER had a plan to infiltrate the U.S government, our colleges or schools. I wish I lived in your world. My life would have been MUCH easier. It is unfortunate that I was, by choice, FORCED to live in the REAL world. Sorry, OVM, I can't go along with you on this one. The Soviet threat was real and SO is this one. When, and only then, that our government and the people of this country wake up to that fact will we have ANY chance of fighting this. Otherwise, you had better be looking for a prayer rug.
 

OntarioVanMan

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And the Soviets NEVER had a plan to infiltrate the U.S government, our colleges or schools. I wish I lived in your world. My life would have been MUCH easier. It is unfortunate that I was, by choice, FORCED to live in the REAL world. Sorry, OVM, I can't go along with you on this one. The Soviet threat was real and SO is this one. When, and only then, that our government and the people of this country wake up to that fact will we have ANY chance of fighting this. Otherwise, you had better be looking for a prayer rug.

I might have been more inclined to agree with ya Joe IF he wasn't a natural citizen born here and hadn't 14 yrs of service under his belt....

We'll have to agree to disagree....:D
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Yes...all by himself..no conspiracy, no sleeper cell.....his demise was a plan all in his own mind....
After all the Japs used to scream bonzai before their demise...

OVM... do you even read what I write? Who says there is a conspiracy or sleeper cells? I defy you to find any such nonsense in my posts. Don't confuse me with anyone else. I think and speak only for myself. Sloppy... lazy. Geez.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I might have been more inclined to agree with ya Joe IF he wasn't a natural citizen born here and hadn't 14 yrs of service under his belt....

We'll have to agree to disagree....:D

How long had Benedict Arnold serve? It is NOT un-heard of for scum to change their mind. NO proof, just my gut telling me this.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
OVM... do you even read what I write? Who says there is a conspiracy or sleeper cells? I defy you to find any such nonsense in my posts. Don't confuse me with anyone else. I think and speak only for myself. Sloppy... lazy. Geez.

I am sorry for mixing ya up....
 
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