Ft. Hood Massacre: 12 Dead, 31 Wounded

[Turtle]

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

The Golden Rule, right? Treat your fellow man the way you want to be treated. Pretty simple. It's the basis of nearly all of our laws, our humanity and our history. It would be insane, crazy, to want others to do you harm, to have others commit evil acts upon you. Therefore, to commit evil acts upon others is not sane, it's insane, it's just crazy. Knowing right and wrong and choosing wrong anyway is perhaps the epitome of crazy. This, of course, dismisses the "legal" definitions of sane and insane for what they are, pure BS.

Major Nadal is a nut, a stone cold crazy. Still, just the same, he is 100% responsible for his actions.


"Well whatever he is or whatever prompted him, he has fans and supporters:"

Every nutcase has their fans and supporters. Crazy ain't all that rare.

 

[layoutshooter]

Well, what ever you or I call crazy, this particular criminal, needs nuked, assuming that he is convicted in a Court Martial. I just PRAY and hope that Obama does NOT try to interfere with the MILITARY legal process that this man is subject, by choice to.

 

[aristotle]

Turtle... I am trying to follow your logic. Are you saying every murderer or rapist or child molester is crazy? Is insane?

I contend very few criminals are "crazy." It would turn the legal world on its head to suggest all criminal activity is the product of mental deficiencies. Very few criminals even try to offer a defense of mental defect to absolve themselves from guilt or punishment. Even fewer succeed with such a defense. It is generally accepted people who commit crime know right from wrong, understand cause and effect. Exceptions are made for the very young and those who truly are afflicted with verifiable mental illness.

 

[Turtle]

Turtle... I am trying to follow your logic.

Better men than you have tried, and failed.

Are you saying every murderer or rapist or child molester is crazy? Is insane?

Simply put, yes.

Now, that's not the same as criminally insane or legally insane, but they're insane just the same. Or, at the very least, the decision they made to do whatever they did was a crazy decision. A judge or jury returning a finding that determines someone to be insane means one thing in the legal world, but that's for the purposes of legal guilt or innocence, and for punishment, but it doesn't change the fact that the accused did whatever they were charged with doing.

For example, are you likely to grab a couple of guns and go on a random shooting spree? Well, no, of course you're not. That's because you're not crazy. Are you likely to walk into a convenience store, shove a couple of Snickers into your pockets, and then walk out of the store because you think you won't get caught? No, of course, not. That's because you're not crazy.

Knowing right from wrong, and then doing wrong anyway, is crazy. Who, in their right mind, would do such a thing? Crazy people do that stuff, not sane people.

As RLENT noted elsewhere, the one single underlying commonality between all mass murderers, without exception, is that they were all crazy. Nuts. Bonkers. Insane. Each and everyone of them. Nadal is no different than those who took part in 9/11, Timothy McVey, Jason Rodriguez (Orlando shooting the other day), the guy in Brunswick, GA who killed every member of his family as they lay sleeping in their beds in the trailer, or the drug dealer down on the street corner. Do you think robbing banks is a sane activity? No. They're all nuts. Even if they all knew they were doing wrong when they did it, they're still crazy. They're not legally insane, but they're crazy.

But again, being crazy absolves you of nothing, except, as you noted, for those who are truly incapable of rational and critical thinking, those who really and truly, demonstrably, cannot determine the difference between right and wrong.


You contend that very few criminals are "crazy." I, on the other hand, contend that every one of them are. You have to be crazy to knowingly commit a crime. You can't be thinking right and commit a crime, and even if that faulty thinking isn't faulty enough to be found legally insane, it's still faulty, you're still crazy. Just not crazy enough for it to be a factor in the legal system. There are wildly varying levels of crazy. But at the end of the day, crazy is as crazy does.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. It's that simple. Anything else is just craaaazy, man.

 

[aristotle]

Better men... hmmm. You must know my brothers Daniel and Jake. And my late father, George. *L*

I realize there is a school of thought advocating criminal activity as an outgrowth of mental deficiency. Obviously, I don't share that view.

 

[layoutshooter]

I do not agree Turtle. That attitude has be a HUGE contributing factor to crime as we know it today. There is NOT inansity issuses LEGAL or other wise with every shooting or act of treason like this maybe. There are, however, just plain evil, nasty and disgusting people. This man and Obama BOTH fall into that catagory, in my opinion at any rate. I live in a VERY black and white, right and wrong world, it is simple and easy to understand. I don't give a flip what shrinks think, most shrinks are wacked out anyway. Kill my commrads in arms, you are a traitor, a murderer and a pig. It is THAT simple.

 

[aristotle]

An insane psychiatrist?? Think of the irony. I enjoyed the Hannibal Lecter series for entertainment, but of course, it was a work of fiction.

 

[RLENT]

I don't know Aristotle, Murder has been used as a tool of governments for years.

Which might tell ya just a little about how insane a government can become .....

To say that killings like what took place at Ft. Hood have to be the act of an insane person is a stretch.

.... only for someone who believes that such killings are not the act of an insane madman ......

NOT all mass murder is that act of an insane, legally or otherwise, person. I cannot go that far.

Wow ..... that is just utterly scary ..... (that you apparently believe mass murder is a sane act.)

That, and the fact that you were (apparently) involved in the national security apparatus of this country ought to cause people to question the judgement of those involved in such matters (or at least those attracted to such positions)

It certainly makes the case for strict oversight and a lot better employment vetting practices than we have apparently had in the past.

 

[layoutshooter]

It does sort of boggle the mind, does it not? EVERY physc instructor I had in college was sort of "out there" but sane. This guy should be shot with bullets greased in bacon grease. That would be fitting. Let us not forget to insure a Court Martial board stacked with infidals.

 

[RLENT]

It does sort of boggle the mind, does it not?

No, not really ..... particularly if you studied under psychs ..... not at all ....

EVERY physc instructor I had in college was sort of "out there" but sane.

Likely not correct ..... most of them are nuts. It is a commonly known fact that they are, and that they suffer from a significantly higher incidence of "mental illness" than the general population.

 

[layoutshooter]

Mass murder was used by Hitler, Stalin, Mau, and may other in the 20th century. Either they, national leaders, were ALL insane, OR, it IS possible for sane people to commit mass murder. Look at Iran, Syria, China, Russia AND North Korea today, all INSANE?
When Obama and CO. go after all those who reject their socialism, jail and execute them, INSANE? Then just how do we fight this?

I had TWO physc instrutors in college. One used to wear knee high boots and stomp up and down in front of the blackboard with his hand in his coat like that classic Napolean picture and the second, a Brit, spent 17 YEARS studying why MALE monkees would NOT "mount" female monkees that had their overies removed. He asked us WHY this was. I resonded, that they did NOT produce the proper scent!! I then went on to explain to this idiot, that if, he had spent more time OUT SIDE rather than in a lab, he would have known that , ALL animals spend there lives SNIFFING to know if the "time was right". Crazy, no, stupid, yes. Stupidity cannot be mistaken for insanity.

By the way, that 17 year study was paid for by U.S taxpayers and the study was done in Hawaii

 

[Turtle]

Better men... hmmm. You must know my brothers Daniel and Jake. And my late father, George. *L*

Of course, it was just a figure of speech and not meant to be in any way disparaging.

I realize there is a school of thought advocating criminal activity as an outgrowth of mental deficiency. Obviously, I don't share that view.

I actually do share that view, but not for the same reasons as those who generally ascribe to it. Most tend to take that view as a way to (as some on here have accused me of doing) to lessen or mitigate the actions of someone, to essentially relieve some or all of the burden of responsibility for what they do. It's also a view held by many, or most, in the mental health field, which isn't all that coincidentally one of the views that ensures job security. I mean, the more people you can convince that they need mental health treatment, the better.

But by and large, people who commit crimes have some sort of significant mental deficiency. "That guy's weird," is just a kinder, gentler euphemism for, "That's guy's crazy." I've never met a convict, or an ex-con, who wasn't, uhm, a little weird.

Everybody makes mistakes, a crazy decision. There are many levels of crazy. Some are very minor, some not so much, some are clearly evident, some not so much. But nearly everyone is possessed with a less-than-perfect mind. Look at a Liberal, for example. Some of the things they believe in are just crazy. Doesn't even make sense, even to them. Ask them to make sense out of it and they can't. Best they can do is offer up an emotional argument to support their crazy thinking. Most fanatics are crazy, tree huggers, socialists, Detroit Lion fans, members of the US Intelligence Community, people who think global warming and climate change is human induced, it's a long list.

 

[layoutshooter]

Of course, it was just a figure of speech and not meant to be in any way disparaging.

I actually do share that view, but not for the same reasons as those who generally ascribe to it. Most tend to take that view as a way to (as some on here have accused me of doing) to lessen or mitigate the actions of someone, to essentially relieve some or all of the burden of responsibility for what they do. It's also a view held by many, or most, in the mental health field, which isn't all that coincidentally one of the views that ensures job security. I mean, the more people you can convince that they need mental health treatment, the better.

But by and large, people who commit crimes have some sort of significant mental deficiency. "That guy's weird," is just a kinder, gentler euphemism for, "That's guy's crazy." I've never met a convict, or an ex-con, who wasn't, uhm, a little weird.

Everybody makes mistakes, a crazy decision. There are many levels of crazy. Some are very minor, some not so much, some are clearly evident, some not so much. But nearly everyone is possessed with a less-than-perfect mind. Look at a Liberal, for example. Some of the things they believe in are just crazy. Doesn't even make sense, even to them. Ask them to make sense out of it and they can't. Best they can do is offer up an emotional argument to support their crazy thinking. Most fanatics are crazy, tree huggers, socialists, Detroit Lion fans, members of the US Intelligence Community, people who think global warming and climate change is human induced, it's a long list.

Detroit LIONS fans, ARE crazy!! The rest is debatable!!

 

[aristotle]

The rational person is expected to act in what he/she believes to be their own self interest. We are not inherently bestowed with altruism at birth. Most folks want to live in peace and do right by others. However, a sizeable segment of the population will choose differently.... they will live their lives without concern for the harm they might cause to others. They will lie, cheat, steal, defraud, bamboozle... all manners of harm with no remorse.

On another level, some will visit physical harm on innocent victims. This would include violent acts, up to and including, murder. These criminals, though detestable, are sane/rational people. They plot, plan and execute with a fully functional mind. What sets them apart is they do not have concern for their victims. Oh, they know what they are doing... they just don't care. Crime is selfishness run amok.

 

[Pilgrim]

More information continues to trickle out:

"Classmates participating in a 2007-2008 master's program at a military college complained repeatedly to superiors about what they considered Hasan's anti-American views. Dr. Val Finnell said Hasan gave a presentation at the Uniformed Services University that justified suicide bombing and told classmates that Islamic law trumped the U.S. Constitution.
Another classmate said he complained to five officers and two civilian faculty members at the university. He wrote in a command climate survey sent to Pentagon officials that fear in the military of being seen as politically incorrect prevented an "intellectually honest discussion of Islamic ideology" in the ranks. The classmate also requested anonymity because the investigation is ongoing."

Alleged Ft. Hood gunman may have 9/11 mosque link - Yahoo! News

One has to wonder if the pressures of political correctness within the military contributed to this tragedy. Why are so many people in so many walks of American life so concerned with offending muslims?

 

[RLENT]

Mass murder was used by Hitler, Stalin, Mau, and may other in the 20th century. Either they, national leaders, were ALL insane,

I would submit to you that that is indeed the case - they were all insane - utterly and completely.

And not only were they insane, but they were possessed of the worst, most vicious and destructive form of insanity that there is - not the rather innocuous garden-variety, babbling, get-the-guy-a-drool-cup local village idiot type ..... but the mass-murderer, psycho killer "let's-kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-them-out type.

History is just riddled with these type of clowns ... the ones you named, plus to name but a few: Pol Pot, Radovan Karadžić - the author of the Bosnian genocide (who was, incidently a psychiatrist), Béla Kun (the commie author of the ethic cleansing of Turkish and Crimean Tatars back in the '20's), Suharto (Indonesia), Jean Kambanda (Rwandan genocide) and on and on and on ....

The specific condition has been observed from time immemorial and the technical (psych) term for the condition is psychopathy and is defined as:

".... a psychological construct that describes chronic disregard for ethical principles and antisocial behavior. Psychopaths are characterized by their shallow affect, superficial charm, manipulativeness, lack of empathy, criminal versatility, impulsiveness, irresponsibility, poor behaviour controls, and juvenile delinquency." Individuals with this disorder gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior and lack remorse for their actions.

The following is revealing - since it indicates that psychiatry, despite having observed the phenomena, really has no clue about how to treat (let alone cure) the condition:

"In practice, mental health professionals rarely treat psychopathic personality disorders as they are considered untreatable and no interventions have proved to be effective."

The above are from Wikipedia and are essentially accurate statements from what I know of the matter from other sources.

Look at Iran, Syria, China, Russia AND North Korea today, all INSANE?

You mean their leaders ?

Well, of course, certainly they are - or at least some of them. The amount of insane can be measured by the degree to which they are willing to go in terms of inflicting death and destruction on the innocent civilian populations under their control.

When Obama and CO. go after all those who reject their socialism, jail and execute them, INSANE?

Abso-freakin'-lutely

I had TWO physc instrutors in college. One used to wear knee high boots and stomp up and down in front of the blackboard with his hand in his coat like that classic Napolean picture

That should have given you the 1st hint ..... (that they were nuts and had no clue ......)

and the second, a Brit, spent 17 YEARS studying why MALE monkees would NOT "mount" female monkees that had their overies removed.

And that one should have really sealed the deal for ya ..... I mean c'mon .... studying monkeys ? .....

And these two jokers would likely be recognized as "experts" on humanity in our judicial system ..... pulease .....

Newsflash: a monkey ain't a man ..... (despite what some would have you believe)

Then just how do we fight this?

Well, the first thing to do would be to figure out and educate yourself about what is social behavior and what is anti-social behavior .... and then let that determine who you support or associate with, who you select as your leaders ....

BTW (and this is not directed at you particularly), irresponsible commentary - either intentionally designed, or just carelessly spewed out as mindless drivel (as the consequence of a dull individual's inability to see the ultimate consequences of his actions) which whips up emotions and incites hatred towards others based on race, creed, religion, etc. ain't social behavior ....

People of this ilk need to be quarantined (or shunned) so that they don't infect the remainder of the population own particular brand of venom (insanity)

 

[RLENT]

The rational person is expected to act in what he/she believes to be their own self interest.

Yup - the place where people often go off the rails on that though is to assume that self-interest doesn't include the well-being and survival of others.

They think it's "me-as-an-individual-only" sorta thing - it ain't.

We are not inherently bestowed with altruism at birth.

Ahhh ... but I don't think that's the case at all .....

Children are generally about the nicest, well-mannered, most social folks you'd ever want to meet ..... until adults get ahold of them .....

Most folks want to live in peace and do right by others.

Yup - I think that is absolutely true.

However, a sizeable segment of the population will choose differently .... they will live their lives without concern for the harm they might cause to others. They will lie, cheat, steal, defraud, bamboozle... all manners of harm with no remorse.

Sizable ?

Actually I would submit that it is actually a very, very small portion of the population. Of course, the "masters of disaster" on the nightly news will make it seem as though insanity, danger, and criminality is rampant and everywhere .... but then they do profit from publicizing it ..... and so do others .... avoid them if you value your health and sanity.

On another level, some will visit physical harm on innocent victims. This would include violent acts, up to and including, murder. These criminals, though detestable, are sane/rational people.

Then you have a most odd definition of what it is to be sane ....

They plot, plan and execute with a fully functional mind.

I would submit that they do not have fully functional minds - because it is abundantly clear that their minds (the purpose of which, is to solve problems related to survival) are to some degree incapable of solving those problems, without harming others - when it is clearly possible to survive without doing so. .... indeed, many survival quite well without harming others ..... even to the point benefiting their fellows greatly.

Those who can't manage to restrain themselves from doing harm to others are, to some greater or lesser degree, psychopathic .....

What sets them apart is they do not have concern for their victims. Oh, they know what they are doing... they just don't care. Crime is selfishness run amok.

And that is insane ......

 

[layoutshooter]

THATS How you spell Monkey!! That was driving me nuts (no insane) last night!!

 

[layoutshooter]

One has to wonder if the pressures of political correctness within the military contributed to this tragedy. Why are so many people in so many walks of American life so concerned with offending muslims? QUOTE FROM PILGRIM.

I would think that would be rather obvious with so many radical Muslims trying to kill us.

 

[Turtle]

Crime is selfishness run amok.

Amok - In or into a jumbled or confused state, a psychic disturbance characterized by depression followed by a manic urge to murder.

There ya go, crazy.


No, I don't think most of us are altruistic at birth, but nor do I think most of us are egotistical at birth, either, both of which are the extremes on either end. I think most of us fall somewhere in the middle, right there in that "Do unto others" category. Once you stray from that, for whatever reason, you begin to exhibit crazy.

One has to wonder if the pressures of political correctness within the military contributed to this tragedy. Why are so many people in so many walks of American life so concerned with offending muslims?

I don't think one has to wonder much about it, since it's blatantly obvious that political correctness led to this. Political correctness allowed a devout Muslim to enlist in the military in the first place. That's just butt stoopid. Erring on the side of caution isn't discrimination, it's intelligent. For that matter, so is racial profiling.

In this particular cases, there was a news story that I'm too lazy to go find a link to, but should be easy enough to find, where several officers refused to write up an official complaint against Nadal out of fear of being charged with discrimination of a protected minority.

If Nadal had been, say, a Baptist, or a Catholic, his actions and Web postings would have gotten him dismissed from the military in the blink of an eye. For that matter, he would have been gone, gone, gone for arguing with his patients returning from war over the worth of their sacrifices. Political correctness prevented those at Walter Reed and at Ft Hood from having the guts to man-up and deal directly with a dysfunctional soldier and an incompetent doctor. Instead, they promoted him to the rank of major, political correctness at it's zenith.

In any event, I think we can all agree that there's something wrong with someone who fires into a crowd and continues firing until brought down. It doesn't matter whether the person planned it out in excruciating detail, thinks he is killing Infidels for Allah, or is simply listening to the voices in his head, that kind of homicidal act is insane by any criteria you choose to apply.


(heh, Infidels for Allah. I could have a lot of fun with that one. A rock group, a PAC, there's an entire SNL skit right there)