Egypt and Barry

[Turtle]

Read the following very carefully, and then adjust your prejudices and uninformed fears and conclusions accordingly: Egypt will not be another Iran with an Islamic theocracy for a government. The Muslim Brotherhood will not take control of the country.

Also, the reason Obama has to tread lightly is because he doesn't want our other Arab allies to think they'll be thrown under the bus next.

 

[RLENT]

The problem we have in Egypt is very much the same as the situation with the Shah of Iran ....

In one sense: not really .....

In another, yes, it is similar (but probably not in the sense that you see it) - in that in both instances we, as a nation, have backed brutal, immoral criminals - people that belong, not on the throne, but in the docket ..... on trial for their very lives .....

At some point, someone is going to hopefully wise up and realize that doing so, is not in our best interests as a nation.

When one, or one's nation, conducts oneself (or itself, as the case may be) in a criminal manner, one should not envision that one will be regarded as little else ...

........ understand the consequences of allowing an ally of the us to be overthrown and replaced by a theocratic despot and enemy of anyone who wasn't a radical muslim.

I'm quite sure that the people of the respective nations (Iran and Egypt) well understand the consequences of ruled by a dictator of any stripe.

And I rather suspect that this understanding is also shared by people in other lands who find themselves in similar circumstances.

For them, the professed religious leanings of such probably matter very little as a practical matter. The claimed faith of your torturer probably matters little .... when you are about have your legs pulpified (as US forces did to one - apparently completely innocent - young man in Vietnam-istan) .... or have the electric current hooked up to your nether regions.

One can well imagine that if they had a choice though, they would probably elect to be ruled over by someone other than a US puppet.

Well, if they are smart anyways ......

History could very easily repeat itself if Mubarak is forced to depart too quickly and leave a power void in Egypt.

Right .... so we should continue to back a brutal dictator, against popular political opinion, for whom political repression and torture are the order of the day (..... otherwise, the only alternative choice is radical fundamentalism ....)

Hmmmm ..... yeah ..... that ought to really endear us to the average Egyptian citizen - I mean, look how well it turned out in Iran ..... (apologies for the low audio levels, but this was only clip of this I could find easily):

Chalmers Johnson Blowback

Of course, the real truth of the matter is that these two (false) choices are not the only two available - and anyone who would try and sell the premise that they are is a complete fraud and quack.

If this happens and so-called "free and fair elections" are set up during a brief transition period, the winner will be the group with the best organization - and that will be the Muslim Brotherhood, who has been around since the 1920s.

Again ... not really - for one thing, the MB has already stated that they will not run a candidate for the office of president.

Secondly, the fact of the matter is that while the MB enjoys a significant amount of political support, it does not appear to be the majority of the population.

People are far too quick to write off the ideas (freedom, liberty, democracy) that we as a nation have instilled in a great many minds throughout the world - and the civilizing influence that these notions have.

Third, the MB is not a monolithic entity - it has, within it's ranks, it's own dissenters. The MB of today does not appear to be your daddy's MB of 1928.

To have a full understanding of where things are today, one has to at least be beyond having a knee-jerk reaction when one hears the words "Muslim Brotherhood" mentioned.

This course of events would be an absolute disaster for the Western World, but would also guarantee Obama's defeat in 2012.

Yeah ..... I betcha that's really a tough one ..... on the one hand, you have disaster ..... and on the other ..... you have disaster .....

I can only imagine the mindset that facing such choices engenders ....

The foolishness of the (apparent) premise is that political organizations ought to be repressed - thereby denying a voice to the people who belong to them. That this fails to recognize how this actually further radicalizes people whose voices are denied seems to escape the notice of those would advocate it.

After reading this thread it's seems like alot of the sentiments are inspired, not by any real knowledge or understanding of the actual events, and who the real actors are on the ground, but by whatever it is that lunatic, charlatan Glenn Beck, and others of his ilk in the right-wing retardo-sphere, seem to be consuming lately:

George Soros Plans To Overthrow America

The Manchurian Lunatic

BTW, be sure stay tuned: Glenn Beck's current treatment of events in the Middle East is sure to be great fodder for much highly entertaining parody in the upcoming days ...

And kudos to OVM, EnglishLady, Turtle, Greg, and witness23 for keeping it largely real

 

[muttly]

Those right wingers like Kirsten Powers. How can she be so wrong? Kirsten Powers: Americans Should Worry About

 

[RLENT]

Those right wingers like Kirsten Powers. How can she be so wrong?

I believe that I've repeatedly made the point that insanity is not constrained to either the Left or the Right, and is no respecter of political ideology - there are certainly whacko nut-jobs on either side of the aisle.

One thing that they (the whack-jobs) both often seem to have in common is that (as a generality) they both tend to be fans of the state in one way or another - often of an imperial Amerika (many times despite claiming otherwise ....) .... you know: the premise where we oughta, as a nation, be all up in everyone elses' business and meddling in their internal affairs ....

Just as it's true that there are looneys on both sides, it is equally true that there are reasonable folks on both sides - as evidenced by the growing condemnation of Beck and his ilk by some on the Right (notably Bill Kristol, of The Weekly Standard, for one ...)

It is certainly true that there is a danger (even if it is very remote) that extremist radicals could come to power in Egypt ..... the difference between sanity and insanity is the approach one takes in addressing the subject:

On the one hand there is intelligent, reasoned discourse and a seeking to honestly inform oneself resulting in a true understanding of events so that one might honestly ascertain the degree of danger and the real likelihood of it happening ..... on the other is blatant kooky ideological fear-mongering of the type that is indulged in by Hannity and Beck, et al.

Interestingly enough, Ms. Powers asserts that her "relative", who was once calm even in the middle of the protest events in Egypt was so ....... until they were told that they should be otherwise:

"Today, he was not so calm. Our family in Egypt is shocked and alarmed by what they are hearing from Western voices ....."

Kinda funny how people who have been living there, in the middle of it all, day in and day out, seeing it all with their own eyes, interacting with their neighbors, and experiencing what life was like, weren't really concerned ..... until we, in the West, told them they should be .....

Gee ..... I wonder if there is any connection ?

One can only imagine what sort of histrionics might have been involved in getting them to change their viewpoint ....

Perhaps they were duly impressed when they caught an episode of Beck ...... one where he used an extra dollop of Vicks Vap-O-Rub to bring on the tears:

Glenn Beck EXPOSED

 

[RLENT]

Those right wingers like Kirsten Powers. How can she be so wrong?

Just so it's real clear for you that I disdain lefthand-threaded wingnuts as equally much as their brothers and sisters with the right-hand threads, here's another example (in addition to yours) from the left-wing retardo-sphere:

"So you thought it was only the wackos on the neocon right who support Mubarak? Wrong! I’m listening right now to Rachel Maddow, MSNBC’s resident ultra-liberal, attack Rand Paul for being “offshore” because he calls for ending the $1.5 billion in “aid” to the Egyptian military.

”Offshore”?

Well, uh, yes, because you see “politics stops at the water’s edge,” everyone in both parties supports the President’s non-policy regarding the Egyptian events, and only “offshore” (read: off-the-wall) types, like the “isolationist” (Rachel’s word) Rand Paul think otherwise. Stupidly, she lumps in Paul with John “Invade the World” Bolton — who supports Mubarak (just like the Obama administration, which continues to fund Mubarak’s secret police thugs). She also noted that Paul wants to end aid to Israel — “Of course,” as she put it.

“Of course”? Really? Rand Paul’s bravery in sticking his neck out on this sensitive issue is to be commended — but not if you’re Rachel Maddow, who has never — ever — critcized Israel on her oh-so-”liberal” show.

Back when she was just another Air America airhead, Maddow invited me to be on her program: I declined, just because I wasn’t in the mood for liberal bromides that day. I thought she was a hack then, and now that she’s famous she’s even more of a partisan hack than before.

What I’d like to know is this, though: why does Maddow think funding the Egyptian torture machine, and the Israeli occupation of Palestine, is good for America? How does it serve our legitimate interests? Is it “stimulus” money? Does she just support any and all government spending as a matter of high principle? Or does she really think it’s a good idea for us to be subsidizing a regime so brutal that even the US State Department characterizes it as “repressive”?

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel — you can’t be serious. The Egyptian people want us to stop supporting Mubarak: it’s that simple. If that’s “offshore,” then so be it.

UPDATE:

“The Ed Show’ follows the Maddow tirade on MSNBC, and there’s good old Ed — a protectionist China-basher with a slightly thuggish look — demanding to know why the US sends $1.5 billion a year to Mubarak. Maybe he should ask Rachel that question. Oh, and he’s pushing a poll — you text in your vote — asking people whether they think the US should cut the aid. I guess Rachel will be voting “yes.”

Link to original:

Rachel Maddow Supports Aid to Mubarak

 

[RLENT]

If you are feeling the need for something other than the drivel spewed out by Rush, Beck, Hannity, Maddow, Mathews and the other masters of disaster of similar ilk, and want an alternative viewpoint on the events going down in Egypt, try here for starters:

War In Context

Interesting piece up there now about how the Muslim Brotherhood has rejected (Iran's Spreme Leader) Khamenei’s attempt to hijack the Egyptian revolution .....

 

[witness23]

Great post RLENT. This from the article sums it all up:

Ikhwanweb, the Muslim Brotherhood’s official English website editor in chief Khaled Hamza has stated that the current uprising in Egypt is a revolution of the Egyptian people and is by no means linked to any Islamic tendencies, despite allegations nor can it be described as Islamic.

With that said, should Americans be concerned with what takes the place of Mubarack, absolutely, but as you stated earlier, the knee-jerk reaction of the those on the fringe are just that, knee-jerk reactions.

Good to have you back.

 

[RLENT]

but as you stated earlier, the knee-jerk reaction of the those on the fringe are just that, knee-jerk reactions.

And that's being really polite about it - notice I didn't use the word "drooling" anywhere even ...

An image of what's happening at many of the protests from the folks over at Al-Jazeera:

I have seen a number of similar images on my perusals of the coverage on the web ... which are apparently reflective of the sentiments of many.

Good to have you back.

Well thanks ..... and thanks for noticing (.... on both the return ... and the departure .... )

 

[witness23]

From the Commentary, the self-proclaimed flagship for neoconservatism. Alana Goodman's take on Beck's theory's on what is going on in Egypt. This excerpt sums it up, but I do suggest reading the entire article.

Yes, there are many reasons to be concerned about Islamist groups, especially the Muslim Brotherhood, gaining control in Egypt. But there are also many reasons to be hopeful for democracy. It’s difficult enough to calculate the best course for Egypt based on the known facts. Throwing unknown, or inaccurate, “facts” into the mix doesn’t serve anyone’s interests.

Link: Commentary » Blog Archive » The Problem with Glenn Beck

The Problem with Glenn Beck’s Theorizing on Egypt
Alana Goodman - 02.07.2011 - 3:50 PM

Conservatives are divided over how to view the situation in Egypt. Some have taken the more prudent stance that the U.S. needs to help steer a strong transitional government in Egypt until democracy can be ensured. Others have taken an optimistic position closer to President Bush’s second inaugural address, arguing that the U.S. has a responsibility to support and encourage the will of the Egyptian people as it currently stands.

Both perspectives have their own merits, and both have been argued persuasively in recent pieces by Bill Kristol and Charles Krauthammer.

But as Americans grapple with these ideas, there’s one thing that is especially unhelpful to the discussion — and that’s the distribution of blatant misinformation. Glenn Beck, instead of taking a hard, sober look at a situation that will have major ramifications for the U.S., has been using his high-profile FOX and radio shows to, in fact, misinform. The new theory Beck appears to be pushing is that the Egyptian revolt is being controlled by an alliance between leftist American organizations and Islamists.

Like most misguided ideas, this theory is based in some truth. Leftist groups like ANSWER and Code Pink have inserted themselves into the Egyptian uprising, and there are indications that they’ve been reaching out to Islamist organizations. But so what? Many leftist groups are anti-American. Islamist groups are anti-American. That they’ve reached out to each other is not a particularly surprising, or significant, development.

The danger of Beck’s theorizing is that he’s spreading the misconception that the uprising in Egypt was initiated by anti-democratic groups, and that it’s Islamist at its core. While there’s no doubt that the Muslim Brotherhood and socialist organizations have become involved in the protests, they didn’t start the uprising, and that’s not what the protests are about.

Yes, there are many reasons to be concerned about Islamist groups, especially the Muslim Brotherhood, gaining control in Egypt. But there are also many reasons to be hopeful for democracy. It’s difficult enough to calculate the best course for Egypt based on the known facts. Throwing unknown, or inaccurate, “facts” into the mix doesn’t serve anyone’s interests.

 

[Turtle]

It's ironic that the group in Egypt who is talking the most and the loudest about having a transfer of power done in an orderly fashion within the bounds of the Constitution is, ta-da, the Muslim Brotherhood.

How can that be? Because, you know, all Muslims are bad.

 

[RLENT]

It's ironic that the group in Egypt who is talking the most and the loudest about having a transfer of power done in an orderly fashion within the bounds of the Constitution is, ta-da, the Muslim Brotherhood.

Wowee-zowee man ..... that's extremely extremist and very, very radical ..... actually following the law .... whodda thunk it ...

I see an utterly devious commie/marxist/pinko/islamist strategy to subvert the entire free (and not so free) world at work here ..... probably authored by none other than the hidden hand of: CodePink

I'm sure that we should all be completely terrified of what this portends for Western civilization ....

 

[Pilgrim]

Read the following very carefully, and then adjust your prejudices and uninformed fears and conclusions accordingly: Egypt will not be another Iran with an Islamic theocracy for a government. The Muslim Brotherhood will not take control of the country.

In spite of your omnicient reassurances, there are some of us that remain skeptical. So long as the Egyptian military remains as a force of moderation, the Brotherhood won't cross them. They won't have to, given there superior organization and influence as a political party.

From an article in the NY Times by Ayaan Hirsi Ali
• The party must have a political program all members commit to with a vision of how to govern the country until the next election. Dissent within the party is a sure way of losing elections.
• Candidates must articulate not only what they will do for the country but also why the other party’s program will be catastrophic for the nation.
• The party has to be embedded in as many communities as possible, regardless of social class, religion or even political views.
• Candidates must constantly remind potential voters of their party’s successes and the opponent’s failures.
The secular democratic and human-rights groups in Egypt and in the rest of the Arab world show little sign of understanding these facts of political life. The Muslim Brotherhood, on the other hand, gets at least three out of four.
True, they have never been in office. But they have a political program and a vision not only until the next elections, but, in their view, until the Hereafter. And they are very good at reminding Egyptians of why the other party’s policies will be ungodly and therefore catastrophic for Egypt. Above all, they have succeeded in embedding themselves in Egyptian society in ways that could prove crucial.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/opinion/04iht-edali04.html

Somehow, she seems to have more credibility considering her real-life experiences in Egypt.

 

[zero3nine]

The complete idiocy of the left is absolutely amazing.

Enjoy your last two years of the community organizer's reign. He will soon go the way of the peanut farmer and the dodo bird.

I knew it wouldn't take long for somebody to throw Glen Beck out there.... it's so easy to do when you lack a rational and cognizant point...

I don't even know what the man looks like but anybody who angers the Communists so much can't be all bad...

Gotta love watching this kind of thing unfold, a bunch of people arguing about these events on an internet forum...

How many of you are prepared for what will happen here after the middle east falls apart and China leverages its enormous military strength in Asia? When Taiwan falls and the price of all the things we're used to getting so cheaply skyrockets, what then?

This great distraction has us all looking in the wrong direction.

fired at you from my Droideka

 

[Turtle]

In spite of your omnicient reassurances, there are some of us that remain skeptical. So long as the Egyptian military remains as a force of moderation, the Brotherhood won't cross them. They won't have to, given there superior organization and influence as a political party.

There is nothing omniscient about my statement. Whether it is a reassurance is open to debate. I only caution that steadfast prejudices and uninformed fears and conclusions should be adjusted according to what is actually happening in Egypt, and not to rely on the old rules on this one, because they simply don't apply. People see some group with the word "Muslim" in it and they freak out, because if you're a Muslim, and you're a group, whoa boy are you to be feared or hated or both.

Skeptics think someone, probably Muslims, or even the Chinese or the Russians or the United States is behind the uprising. They figure this is gonna be another Iran. They figure the Muslim Brotherhood, by virtue of their name, or simply because they exists, will be the ones to seize power and make live for the entire world a living Hеll. It reminds me of the people who root for movies to fail at the box office, and then get some sick satisfactory glee when it fails to produce monster numbers.

In Egypt, all you have to do is watch what is happening, watch the reactions, listen to the people and what they are saying. What is going on over there is something we've never seen before, not in our lifetimes, despite the fact that many people want so badly for it to be just another revolt that fits with the master plan, whatever that might be. What is going on over there has far more in common with what happened here in 1776 than what took place in Iran.

Somehow, she seems to have more credibility considering her real-life experiences in Egypt.

More credibility than what? Someone else who is from Egypt? Believe it or don't, the Egyptian country and its people contains more than one salient opinion.

Where she says, "The secular democratic and human-rights groups in Egypt and in the rest of the Arab world show little sign of understanding these facts of political life," man, is ever that true, except she misses the mark on Point #2, and puts the cart before the horse in Point #3, and in Point #4 assumes someone will seize power using the old rules rather than have something new happen.

And it's quite true that the "Muslim Brotherhood, on the other hand, gets at least three out of four." But the problem is, the Muslim Brotherhood isn't the only one in Egypt who gets it. There is a pretty wide consensus over there about what needs to be done, with mainly the details left to be worked out. It's the Muslim Brotherhood who is the one trying to do it all within the constitution, in an orderly fashion. It's not like the Muslim Brotherhood is coming out of the shadows all of a sudden, despite their illegality within the country. They are well known to everyone there, and everyone gets along and plays well with others, including the Muslim Brotherhood. But the people of Egypt, while they respect the MB, they will not tolerate a totalitarian Islamic state. Why do you think AL Qaeda, bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, et, al, have been largely silent? It's because they get it, too.

 

[Black Sheep]

It's the Muslim Brotherhood who is the one trying to do it all within the constitution, in an orderly fashion. It's not like the Muslim Brotherhood is coming out of the shadows all of a sudden, despite their illegality within the country. They are well known to everyone there, and everyone gets along and plays well with others, including the Muslim Brotherhood.

But isn't that the point? The Brotherhood is the only party that has a broad and deep organization that could produce a voting block large enough to win an election in the case that an election was held too early. They don't have to take over by rioting in the streets - they can do it at the ballot box and claim legitimacy every step of the way. Maybe they would continue to be an ally of the US, or maybe not. The pragmatic approach would be to hope the Egyptian army can hold things together long enough for other political parties to form and organize at the grass roots level. They're also the reason the Islamofascists like Zawahiri and al-quaeda haven't gotten a foothold in that country either. Let's hope it stays that way.

 

[chefdennis]

But al-quaeda is a problem..they are urging the people to break out all prisoners and to destroy the prisons and to be willing to die for islam in these riot....

 

[Turtle]

But isn't that the point? The Brotherhood is the only party that has a broad and deep organization that could produce a voting block large enough to win an election in the case that an election was held too early. They don't have to take over by rioting in the streets - they can do it at the ballot box and claim legitimacy every step of the way.

There won't likely be an election held too early, for one thing. For another, the reason they are broad and deep (which is not the same thing as having widespread support, per se, for leadership) is because they are moderate and centrist. Just because they have "Muslim" in their name doesn't make them an extremist group. The extremist offshoots of the MB is just that, offshoots that have been kicked out of the MB.

Maybe they would continue to be an ally of the US, or maybe not. The pragmatic approach would be to hope the Egyptian army can hold things together long enough for other political parties to form and organize at the grass roots level. They're also the reason the Islamofascists like Zawahiri and al-quaeda haven't gotten a foothold in that country either. Let's hope it stays that way.

I think it will stay that way. One thing many people either aren't aware of, or are forgetting or dismissing as important is, fully one half of the population of Egypt is under 24 years old. You minds tend to not be so easily led, nor do they tend to be overly conservative about anything. The exception is the Egyptians, young and old, are one of the few peoples of the world who are keenly aware of their own history and its significance to the world. Ordinary citizens took up sentry duty at museums. Ordinary citizens have set up security check points around the square so as to keep out government "plants" and other subversives who would go to the square for anything other than to demonstrate the call for liberty and freedom. These people are Egypt First, and everything else, including the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda and anyone else, second. And that's what they want their government to reflect. Anything else is unacceptable.


"But al-quaeda is a problem..."

Yeah, so? Al Qaeda is a problem everywhere. There will be a mad scramble by them and plenty others to take control. It'll be interesting to see how it all unfolds, but I still think the people of Egypt will forge their own destiny.

 

[hdxpedx]

Report: Saudis Warned Obama Not to 'Humiliate' Mubarak – states it all! I reframed from detailed comment's like all the above. the boy king was muzzled!

 

[chefdennis]

The Saudis told barry that if he or his minions screwed with Mubarak to the point of humiliation, or withdraw funding to him, and they would fund him while he re-organize the government leaves on his own...thats when barry said the time frame wasn't an issue now...

Speaks to just how much other world leaders think of barry...

I can hear barry now, (with apologies to Rochester and Jack Benny) "Yesir bosss yesir!!!"

Report: Saudis Warned Obama Not to 'Humiliate' Mubarak - FoxNews.com

 

[hdxpedx]

Speaks to just how much other world leaders think of barry...

Really! Saudi's shipping lane is thru the sewage canal. there must be a three way going on! Warm fuzzy MB must be the Saudi's big concern.. like Friday is the 32nd anniversary of Iran's takeover of the carter administration, I mean warm fuzzy 32nd anniversary of Iran's Islamic revolution.. flowers peace freedom