barry BOWS AGAIN

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
... American expansionism thru control of economics ..... American dominance around the world to have some control of its interests...
Bingo.

All presented in a world peace facade and helping others...when in fact it was just plain self interest of a capitalist nation .....
No, that's actually not quite correct :D - that was the apparency - the PR job, the big lie - that it (what you are referring to) was in the national interest.

What it was in actual fact, was self-interest, not so much on the part of the nation, but on the part of a small handful of very, very well-off folks .... and a few of their henchmen ..... you know - the kind that gets elected to national office (either party ... makes no difference)

The same story has been played out time and time again for several hundred years now .... it's gotten so old that one would think people would wise up and get a clue ..... but alas, some never learn .....

Much to address in this thread, just can't do it right now ... gotta get some sleep.
 

Steady Eddie

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
So OVM I sat across from a WW2 vet at lunch, he is a marine who was in the first marine division. He fought and was wounded on Peleliu and the guy sitting next to him was in the same battle but also fought in the battle of Okinawa.

They reaffirmed what I have been told by brits, dutch and aussies who fought the Japanese too, what it was like and why they fought them. I can't understand why the UK which included your mother country would be fighting the Japanese when they didn't start the fight like some claim we did?

It comes down to the facts and the facts were written long ago as they happened and can't be changed. No brainwashing involved when you look at all sides. Today we ignore these facts in schools and tell the other side of the story instead, a softer side that the Japanese were not the aggressors but a peaceful people who was only minding their own business while they vacationed in China and it was us, the United States who put them into a position that they had to fight or be wiped of the face of the earth.

If you fall for that as near truth, then Hitler was only trying find a place to have a picnic along the Polish border and he kind of drove over the border with his Grosser Mercedes by mistake which started the war.

My Dad was there, and was going to be in the first wave to invade, they were training for it. Awarded 4 bronze stars.

I ask him how he felt about the Bombing....He said "well, your here and your sister is here, so I feel perty good about it"

No brain washing there, he saw first hand what type of people they were back then.

OVM, while you are at home tune TV to the history channel.... WWII in HD.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
My Dad was there, and was going to be in the first wave to invade, they were training for it. Awarded 4 bronze stars.

I ask him how he felt about the Bombing....He said "well, your here and your sister is here, so I feel perty good about it"

No brain washing there, he saw first hand what type of people they were back then.

OVM, while you are at home tune TV to the history channel.... WWII in HD.

I've been watching some of it..pretty good.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Oh and the fact Dwight did in more then once, WAS a show of respect. has he had ALREADY proven that he had no problem going to war and killing and breaking things as we train our military to do ......
The above statement borders on near-imbecilic ....

Let's see if I can go deep in the mind of the chef and understand the rather convoluted and perverse logic here:

"One can only show respect .... if one has no problem going to war and killing and breaking things ....."

Yeah ..... yeah ..... now I think I get it: You kill someone, or break their stuff, or make war on them .... and that means you have shown them respect.

I guess the guys down in the 'hood had it all wrong - they thought they were being diss'ed ..... they was just bein' respected.

I swear .... I really couldn't make this stuff up no matter how hard I tried ..... or if I had a complete eternity to do it ..... but it sure is funny :D .... or scary :eek: ... or somethin' ..... :rolleyes:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I can assure you Rlent is not kidding...
You are correct - I am absolutely not kidding .... although it appears that much of the point(s) that I am trying to make are getting missed.

You've got to be kidding about not finishing the war with Japan, Rlent!
Hawk,

I never said anything about not finishing the war with Japan - I merely commented on the specific manner that a single individual chose to end it - in the name of the citizens of this nation.

Are you some French tactical genius or something?
Moi ?

No, I'm just someone who believes that often those who are attracted to power don't always have the best interests of their fellow citizens, or their fellow man, at heart.

Not everything is touchy-feely, ya know. War is hell!
Indeed it is ..... my father told me about it in fairly graphic detail (he served in the European theater in WWII) ......

As did his brother, my Uncle Everett - who lost his leg ....

As did my wife's father (career Air Force) - he was shot down over North Africa (flew a P51), and later served in Korea, and 'Nam ....

As did her brother (USMC), who served in 'Nam .....

It's not a really a case of being touchy-feely, as much as it is a case of whether it was the best path we could have taken. I submit it was not - and it certainly wasn't the only option we had.
 
Last edited:

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
My father was a 22-year old schoolteacher when he got drafted into WWII in January 1942. He spent the next three years island-hopping with the US army Air Corps throughout the Pacific theater of the war. American soldiers were extremely fearful of being taken POW by the Japanese. The "Japs" as my dad called them were particularly brutish with captives. American prisoners-of-war who were of tall stature or had red hair were often met with unusually sadistic torture, then death.

My dad's brother, on the other hand, was captured by the Nazi soldiers at the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944. He spent six months in a German POW camp before being liberated by the Russians. My uncle weighed just 90 lbs when rescued from the Germans. His health was destroyed and he lived only a few years after returning home to the States.

Why did we drop the A-bombs on Japan? To end the war in the Pacific with as few additional American casualties as possible. The fanaticism of the Japanese warrior was much more intense than that of the typical Nazi. To take the Japanese mainland, America would have had to endure countless Iwo Jima style battles with hundreds of thousands of US military deaths. My father might have been one of them. BTW, my father harbored no ill will towards the Japanese once peace was obtained. From 1975 until his death in 2008, Dad drove Toyotas exclusively. Never once heard him speak a harsh word about the Japanese or Germans.

WWII was total war. We were fighting two strong empires at once. At great cost and sacrifice, WE WON. As an aside, I sometimes think we dropped the A-bombs to put Stalin and the Russians on notice. At the conclusion of WWII, America stood alone as the unchallenged superpower. We were magnamimous in victory. That's part of who we are as a nation.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Good thing Americans had lots of help...sure couldn't have done it alone....and the fact they were 3 years late for the party....:eek:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
What help?

The French?

The Brits?

Oh I see... the Chinese, they distracted the Japanese by becoming targets.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Who's we?

The last time I looked, the brits and russians were both being supplied by us. I have in my collection of WW2 junk and stuff a meal crate that was sent over to feed the hungry brits, we were glad to do that much for them. Many wanted to do more but our hands were tied in more ways than you could imagine.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Who's we?

The last time I looked, the brits and russians were both being supplied by us. I have in my collection of WW2 junk and stuff a meal crate that was sent over to feed the hungry brits, we were glad to do that much for them. Many wanted to do more but our hands were tied in more ways than you could imagine.

While the great efforts of the Americans did not go unnoticed....there were many more countries involved then the main players...of which many contributed food and medical supplies and such...

You are up late? Must be 1am back there...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yea I know, Switzerland provided a lot, alpine horns and those little swiss miss cups of coco. I can't think of any other country that was a major supplier of the war like the US. Canada was second, Australia and South Africa both come to mind but the south American countries didn't do much, Russia was using our stuff, China wasn't doing much and south east asia was overrun by the Japanese. So who?

Yea I'm up late, just let two wet dogs in to the office. Joy joy. With 4 hours of sleep dealing with home issues and oos until friday, I just want to go back on the road and stay there. :p
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Yea I know, Switzerland provided a lot, alpine horns and those little swiss miss cups of coco. I can't think of any other country that was a major supplier of the war like the US. Canada was second, Australia and South Africa both come to mind but the south American countries didn't do much, Russia was using our stuff, China wasn't doing much and south east asia was overrun by the Japanese. So who?

Yea I'm up late, just let two wet dogs in to the office. Joy joy. With 4 hours of sleep dealing with home issues and oos until friday, I just want to go back on the road and stay there. :p

I am just nagging ya....:p

I am also OOS till Friday....was having some chest pains for the last month...been having heart tests...stress test and all that good stuff...poked and prodded.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Reading this with great interest and amusement. But a couple or three points I need to touch on.

One, to the average American on the street, the President of America does not bow to any other world leader? Really? Well, for one, yes he does, 'cause we've seen him do it, and two, the average American on the street could care less. And even for the few who do, most are way more ignorant of the cultural protocols than Obama is. In Japan they bow for a greeting, everybody knows that from watching Shogun and The Karate Kid. He went over there and bowed 'cause, you know, they bow ever there. Did it wrong, whoops, so what. Big fat, hairy deal, move on to something important.

Two... this may be the funniest oxymoron I've come across in a while:

"Sorry again, actually Obama doesn't know what he is doing, he is immature on the diplomatic front and foreign affairs. His bow was an apology and indication of servitude, he lost face with his people."

If he's inexperienced and doesn't know what he's doing, then by definition his bow must be, too, and therefore cannot be an indication of anything, much less apology and servitude. It's a bow, for cryin' out loud, and he did it wrong, not that he is even supposed to know how to do it in the first place, but that doesn't matter, because the bow means exactly squat when applied across cultures. He was trying to fit in and be polite. Besides, he's won a Nobel Peace Prize, and he was last year's NBA Rookie of the Year, so leave him a lone.

Lastly, regarding the Japanese at the end of WWII, "To say they would have fought to the death of the last man or woman against an invasion is a gross understatement."

A gross understatement? :D How can something beyond the death of the last man or woman be more strongly stated? Time-delayed booby-traps to enable them to continue fighting after the death of the last man or woman? If anything, the willingness to actually fight until the death of the last man or woman in the entire nation is probably a gross understatement, since it's really hard for a nation to continue fighting once the last one of them is dead, and it's likely that at least one would have given up before dying.

A bonus... two actually. One, Jim has shown us a living example of "young and impressionable" and how indoctrination at an early state stays with us throughout our lives. Thank you for the excellent presentation, Jim.

Two, "... it certainly does say something that they would continue to remain our friends ......."

You're a free man, Mongo.
"Mongo no go. Sheriff first man ever whip Mongo. Mongo impressed! Have deep feelings for Sheriff Bart!"


And there you have it, your world in 68 seconds.
 

jimby82

Veteran Expediter
A bonus... two actually. One, Jim has shown us a living example of "young and impressionable" and how indoctrination at an early state stays with us throughout our lives. Thank you for the excellent presentation, Jim.

Not really sure how to take that, or if it was directed at me at all. But since I tend to smile and get on with what I was doing, thanks!? :confused:

It's not a really a case of being touchy-feely, as much as it is a case of whether it was the best path we could have taken. I submit it was not - and it certainly wasn't the only option we had.

Ok then, what exactly do you feel was the best path for us to have taken?

I would argue it was indeed the option that allowed us to end the war with the least amount of American casualties. Since hindsight is 20/20 (well in some cases), I would go so far as to suggest it was the option that led to the least amount of actual casualties.

Had we chose:
To do nothing (naval blockade / siege): Many Japanese civilian and well as military deaths due to starvation and disease. Since Japan's military forces were still intact, (well such as they were), we would have continued to loose military personnel. (They probably just weren't going to sit there with our ships off their shores.) Since more than likely available resources would have been directed to military use, the civilian population would have suffered more as time went on. They would have also been able to slowly rebuild some military infrastructure. (make more guns)

To continue conventional bombing / shelling: Many civilian and military deaths due to, well things exploding. Again, Japanese military still intact, and we would have continued to loose military personnel.

To just went home, called it quits: Well this leaves the Japanese military still intact, of course they probably would have still had to have fought the Soviets and the Chinese and others, so again more military and civilian deaths. And the question arises, how long before we ended up fighting them again?

To invaded in late '45 and '46: I don't think so. Lots of death and destruction on both sides.

To negotiated for a peace end to the conflict: Could this have worked? I don't know. Would the Soviets have been willing to stop? Remember, the Japanese government showed no real willingness to stop hostilities up until this time. We were losing men everyday the war continued.

I'm sure there were other possibilities, and maybe there was another path. We will never know for sure.

One thing that has always stuck in my mind was something one of my high school history teachers said once. Something along the lines of, "the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were indeed terrible, but they may have saved us all from a much more terrible fate down the road."

We saw the damage which a relatively small nuclear device could produce. Maybe it was this realization of what would result should we enter a nuclear conflict, that may have prevented us and the Soviets from blowing each other up later on. These devices were "primitive" compared to what would be developed just a short few years down the road. If someone had to be the first to use a nuclear device, I'm thankful it wasn't one of those unholy monsters. Maybe just a glimpse of that terror was enough to stop us from destroying the entire planet.

And yes I know I'll be criticized for "justifying" our use of atomic weapons. So be it.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
rlent wrote:

One can only show respect .... if one has no problem going to war and killing and breaking things ....."


No you got it wrong on a few points... Dwight could do anything he wanted as far as the bow went, BECAUSE he proved himself as a war hero...at least to those who have no problem with killing the enemy and destroying their homes, businesses, and country...which it seemed more then a few agreed with him doing at the tikme and later when they elected him president based on his war record. Oh and yea, I also have no problem with our military likking people, even civilians that get in the way...its war, it happens....

And as far as the "guys in the hood"... something tells me the the Hood in any major city is just a bit different then being at war with a foreign power.....:rolleyes:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Not really sure how to take that, or if it was directed at me at all. But since I tend to smile and get on with what I was doing, thanks!? :confused:
It's not meant to be taken in any particular way, actually. It is what it is. I just found it interesting the story of your mother who had a reason for ill feelings towards the Japanese, and then you saying you have no ill feelings towards them, even going to the point of saying that those of us who never lived through that cannot understand what Obama's gesture meant (even though it made you sick to your stomach even though you didn't live through WWII and therefore don't really understand what the gesture meant). Also, for someone who holds no ill feelings towards Japan, that position seems a little incongruous with subsequent posts of your where you dismiss the admirable cultural qualities of the Japanese in favor of the biting, sarcastic and sardonic recitations of the less-than admirable Japanese cultural qualities and actions of the past.

Clearly, there are, in fact, some ill feelings there, but since you didn't live through it, those feelings can only the result of the transfer of feelings from your mother, at a time when you were young and impressionable, and certainly highly influenced by your mother. It's neither a good thing or a bad thing, it just is what it is, and it's a good illustration of how indoctrination (in whatever form) can have a lasting impression on us.

It has overtones of influence, indoctrination, prejudice, lots of things. It's not about you in particular, but your example is a classic example of it. This is just the amateur social scientist in me at work, something that has been a hobby and an interest of mine for a long time. People and society, what they do and say, and why, is something I find fascinating. Recognizing it in others helps me recognize it in myself. That doesn't mean I can change it, for the good or the bad, but at least I can recognize it. Like everyone, I took on the feelings and prejudices of my parents, justified or otherwise, and some I have been able to shake, some not.

I was only being mildly flippant and comedic, but very serious about it being an excellent presentation of an example of how we are influenced for the long term.

The vivid illustration of dragging your mother back to the car was awesome, BTW. It showed great passion on her part, and great devotion on yours. Hard to argue with that on any level. :)

Also, while it's probably true that dropping the bomb, twice, probably saved lives overall, Allied lives in particular, we really don't know that for sure. It's all conjecture, same as the alternatives that people put forth. If we hadn't have dropped the bomb Japan may have picked up the phone and surrendered three days later, anyway, despite the accepted convention that they were prepared to fight to the last man. Conversely, they may very well have become even more desperate than the Kamikaze by utilizing the "banzai charge" more and more, since the Bushido Code was such an integral part of the Japanese military, and more lives than the accepted estimates may have been lost in that case. But we really don't know for sure.


Side note to Dennis: "And as far as the "guys in the hood"... something tells me the the Hood in any major city is just a bit different then being at war with a foreign power.....:rolleyes:"

It's really not, though. It's just a matter of scale. Most wars have been turf wars, or wars because you just don't like the other people over there, just like in The Hood. Another example of scale are the childhood spats, bullies, wimps and whiners on the playground, which is just a small-scale version of Congress. :D
 

jimby82

Veteran Expediter
Thank you for the explanation, that does clarify several points.

I've always felt I have been able to separate (at least in my mind) my feelings from my mothers. I suspect your evaluation probably hits a little closer to the truth, than maybe I would be willing to admit.:eek:

I should have explained my "sick to my stomach" line. I literally felt sick in reading this story the first time, and I'll try to explain. I was not condemning the presidents actions as they directly affected me. I was rather referring to the pain and anguish his actions probably caused in a number of our WWII veterans and their survivors. (Had my mother still been around, I can assure you she would have not been "happy" with the situation.)

I may not understand (and I don't claim to) the emotions involved, but I can empathize with those who may have been empacted by the President's actions.

I stand exposed, a product of society.:D
 
Top