And the Right Wing are Racist!?!?!?!?

[jimby82]

Maher mainstream? Really? He may be well known, but I seriously doubt his personal views and political positions are anything near "mainstream". Similarly, would Glenn Beck's personal views and political positions qualify as "mainstream"? After all he is pretty well known at this point.

Being "well known" and "mainstream" are two entirely different things.

 

[RLENT]

And we have loser number three for utterly missing the point .... (but who earns a cookie .... for subsequently attempting to redefine the terms I used, as I used them, with his own meanings instead)

 

[layoutshooter]

And we have loser number three for utterly missing the point .... (but who earns a cookie .... for subsequently attempting to redefine the terms I used, as I used them, with his own meanings instead)

In reality, I am paying even less attention to this than I normally do. (I rarely pay much attention to this stuff, not worth the effort) I am working on a project, computer junk, that I have never done before. I am getting to learn new stuff which is always fun. It most likely is not that difficult but I have no one to use as a "sounding board" which is one of the ways I learn. I do have Mrs. Layoutshooter here to help me read and input, or I would NEVER get this finished and this project IS important to me.

This silly discussion is not worth diverting all that much attention too. Maybe if and when I finish this I will rattle your chain a bit more, or maybe not. It would be far more likely if you came up with an argument that had any real bearing on my life. This one does not.

 

[RLENT]

Similarly, would Glenn Beck's personal views and political positions qualify as "mainstream"?

I won't comment on his political positions specifically - since that isn't exactly what I'm talking about (but I do realize that you and others really, really want it to be ) but, yes - Glenn Beck would qualify as part of the cultural mainstream ....

Now, if you can figure why that would be, and then clearly enunciate it on here .... well, you will earn a bonus cookie ....

 

[Turtle]

I was asking because I just could not understand why knowing who this comic is determines that a person is or is not mainstream. That's all. I just could care less about him, his show or that network. It is not important.

The problem is that you dismiss him as merely an "HBO comic." That's your first mistake. The second mistake was dismissing him as irrelevant and/or out of the mainstream because he's on HBO and most people don't have HBO. After he became well established as a comedian and actor, his Politically Incorrect show on Comedy Central and then on ABC got him a huge following. At the height of his ratings on ABC he made some uncomfortable, very politically incorrect comments, which were too much for some advertisers and executives at ABC (and at the White House), and his show was canceled. It was then picked up for HBO as Real Time with Bill Maher and is watched by HBO subscribers as well as online by people who don't have HBO. His Blog is a regular read by millions.

His political views are not along party lines, and I don't agree with about half of his political positions, but he's smart (degree from Cornell) and should not be lightly dismissed. Ironically, he is a staunch supporter of both the military and the intelligence community, that the "public's right to know" doesn't necessarily extend to everything, and that there are some things that should be kept secret. But he's also very liberal, supporting Obama and Kerry, but also supported Dole (because "he was a war hero") and actually vote for Jerry Brown. He's liberal, but is not a liberal. He's conservative about many things, but is not a conservative. He has recently distanced himself a little more from the Libertarians, but he's got a lot of Libertarian views. His views on big government are that government should be really small, and should only be there to do things that people really and truly cannot do for themselves, yet be believes that the government is the only one who will competently and responsibly administer universal health care (so he contradicts himself on many issues, IMHO). His views are literally all over the place, not along party lines, but that's also what makes him relevant to a large portion of the American people, and is why he is mainsteam. Many of his views are not mainstream, to be sure, and his views in total certainly are not, but he himself most certainly is mainsteam. He discusses the issues of the day with a mix of serious guests on the panel, and discusses them with passion and minimal rhetoric (although often with maximum sardonic and sarcastic humor). Whether you agree with him or not, you will hear both sides of the issues on his show.

 

[layoutshooter]

You see Turtle, I don't really even care. I don't care about his show, his views, his politics or what networks he may or may not be on.. He is of no importance to me in any way shape or form. In the grand game of life he ranks so far down the list of what is important that I cannot even find him on my important map. He is just not worth all this effort. Neither is Beck, Rush or anyone other celebs name you wish to throw out. They are "fluff" They provide nothing that I NEED to survive or even help me run my business.

You, on the other hand, often help me with my business, so you DO show up on my important map!! Now if you just could teach me "computereese" then you would REALLY be of value. I do miss having my own personal "geek" like I had at the "Agency" I am having SO much trouble with this important project that I am working on.

As to him being smart, having a degree from Cornell, big whoop. I have learned over the years that intelligence and college degrees do not always go together. Some of the smartest people I have ever worked with or met, never finished high school and some of the dumbest I have ever met had advanced degrees. Pieces of paper, sheepskins etc mean little, what a person DOES in life, their accomplishments AFTER they get what ever education that they feel that they need, IS!! Spouting off on TV about this, that or the other is hardly an accomplishment that will save the world from famine. It is only "fluff", not REAL, therefor, NOT IMPORTANT.

A farmer planting a crop is REAL and IMPORTANT. My doctor is IMPORTANT to me and REAL.

TV personalities are just entertainment. Sometimes I choose that form of entertainment, sometimes I don't. It has never put money in my pocket, food on my table. It does not matter.

As to what you, or anyone else feels may or may not be mainstream, have at it. You are entitled to what ever opinion you wish to have. I am not required to agree or disagree with that opinion.

 

[jimby82]

Rlent,
Loser? Really?

My guess as to your weak attempt to paint Layout as someone outside your version of "mainstream"? You like to hear yourself talk?

It is pretty evident that you don't agree with his (LOS) political views. In an attempt to marginalize his views, you attack him personally and portray him as someone "out of touch" with the mainstream (and hence, someone on the periphery or fringe) of American culture.

I stand by my definition. Maher is not mainstream (neither is Beck). He may be well known (depending on one's definition), but I do not think he would fit . The highest ratings for his now defunct Politically Incorrect television program were somewhere around 3 million viewers at its peak viewership. 1% of the total US population. I don't think that qualifies.

Compare that to the approximately 35 million Americans who go freshwater fishing every year (and I bet there are quite a few who watch fishing shows) or the 13 million or so who hunt. Mainstream? Maybe.

Surprisingly (to me at least), 4.7 million Americans were vegetarians as of 2000. So would vegetarians be considered "mainstream" under your definition?

The point is, your definition of mainstream is just that, your definition. Is there a definitive definition of mainstream for a nation as populous and diverse as ours? Probably not.

What would qualify as mainstream to you would differ from what would quality for me or Layout (or anyone else for that matter).

 

[letzrockexpress]

You see Turtle, I don't really even care. I don't care about his show, his views, his politics or what networks he may or may not be on.. He is of no importance to me in any way shape or form. In the grand game of life he ranks so far down the list of what is important that I cannot even find him on my important map. He is just not worth all this effort. Neither is Beck, Rush or anyone other celebs name you wish to throw out. They are "fluff" They provide nothing that I NEED to survive or even help me run my business.

You, on the other hand, often help me with my business, so you DO show up on my important map!! Now if you just could teach me "computereese" then you would REALLY be of value. I do miss having my own personal "geek" like I had at the "Agency" I am having SO much trouble with this important project that I am working on.

As to him being smart, having a degree from Cornell, big whoop. I have learned over the years that intelligence and college degrees do not always go together. Some of the smartest people I have ever worked with or met, never finished high school and some of the dumbest I have ever met had advanced degrees. Pieces of paper, sheepskins etc mean little, what a person DOES in life, their accomplishments AFTER they get what ever education that they feel that they need, IS!! Spouting off on TV about this, that or the other is hardly an accomplishment that will save the world from famine. It is only "fluff", not REAL, therefor, NOT IMPORTANT.

A farmer planting a crop is REAL and IMPORTANT. My doctor is IMPORTANT to me and REAL.

TV personalities are just entertainment. Sometimes I choose that form of entertainment, sometimes I don't. It has never put money in my pocket, food on my table. It does not matter.

As to what you, or anyone else feels may or may not be mainstream, have at it. You are entitled to what ever opinion you wish to have. I am not required to agree or disagree with that opinion.

If you "don't really even care" and he doesn't matter to you, why bother commenting? Did someone try to cram him down your throat? You stepped in it. Your comments even now are irrelevent to the subject of the thread.

 

[layoutshooter]

If you "don't really even care" and he doesn't matter to you, why bother commenting on the subject? Did someone try to cram him down your throat? You stepped in it.

Sorry I am not as perfect as I should be. I am always "stepping" in it. Just carrying on a conversation. I gave up on my other project, that one is important, until I get some clarification, so I was just killing some time and running up my post counts. Thanks so much for helping me in that effort. See, you do have some value!! NOT mainstream value, but value to be sure.

 

[Turtle]

You see Turtle, I don't really even care. I don't care about his show, his views, his politics or what networks he may or may not be on.. He is of no importance to me in any way shape or form.

Well in that case I stand corrected, your first mistake was asking, "Who is this Maher guy any way?"

In the grand game of life he ranks so far down the list of what is important that I cannot even find him on my important map. He is just not worth all this effort. Neither is Beck, Rush or anyone other celebs name you wish to throw out. They are "fluff" They provide nothing that I NEED to survive or even help me run my business.

Maybe, maybe not. Rush and Beck play towards fear, so fluff and unimportant may be good terms for them. But Bill Maher is neither unimportant nor fluff. He is important only insofar as he brings to the forefront honest discussions of the important issues of the day, and does so without the color of an agenda. When he has a panelist on who has an agenda, it's made known pretty quickly what the agenda is (if it's not already clear). If he has an agenda of his own, he makes that clear, too, and doesn't hide his agenda within the discussion. If you want to be in touch with reality, with the mainstream of America and its issues, it's important to be familiar with Bill Maher's show.

You, on the other hand, often help me with my business, so you DO show up on my important map!! Now if you just could teach me "computereese" then you would REALLY be of value. I do miss having my own personal "geek" like I had at the "Agency" I am having SO much trouble with this important project that I am working on.

Give me a call or shoot me an e-mail. If I can help, I'll be happy to.

As to him being smart, having a degree from Cornell, big whoop. I have learned over the years that intelligence and college degrees do not always go together.

That much is true, but in his case it is a big whoop, since so many others on television and radio are just butt-stoopid and have no concept of critical thinking or hard reasoning. He does.

Spouting off on TV about this, that or the other is hardly an accomplishment that will save the world from famine. It is only "fluff", not REAL, therefor, NOT IMPORTANT.

He spouts off in a manner that make people think for themselves, and when people think for themselves they change things, things that actually affect you. The things they change can be very important to you.

TV personalities are just entertainment. Sometimes I choose that form of entertainment, sometimes I don't. It has never put money in my pocket, food on my table. It does not matter.

Some TV personalities are just entertainment, but some are far more than that. Some make a difference. Hеll, Saturday Night Live, clearly an entertainment and comedy show, had a direct influence on at least two different elections. to dismiss this phenomena or the reality of it, to ignore the mainstream of America, could very well have an effect on money in your pocket and food on your table. Over the last 30 years, especially from the influence of MTV and others fueling and fostering the need for instant gratification, has created a culture of impatience and need it now, which is why expediting was invented. So I'm not sure sure that it's all so unimportant.

As to what you, or anyone else feels may or may not be mainstream, have at it. You are entitled to what ever opinion you wish to have. I am not required to agree or disagree with that opinion.

It's not really an opinion, though. Mainstream is a verifiable, quantifiable thing. Something is either mainstream, or it's not, within whatever constraints you place on the premise. Things like Bill Maher and his show are absolutely a part of the mainstream of American culture. Those who have not heard of him or are unfamiliar with him are not a part of the mainstream of American culture. It's really that simple. There are a lot of television shows that I've never seen which are part of the mainstream of American culture.

 

[layoutshooter]

Well in that case I stand corrected, your first mistake was asking, "Who is this Maher guy any way?"

Maybe, maybe not. Rush and Beck play towards fear, so fluff and unimportant may be good terms for them. But Bill Maher is neither unimportant nor fluff. He is important only insofar as he brings to the forefront honest discussions of the important issues of the day, and does so without the color of an agenda. When he has a panelist on who has an agenda, it's made known pretty quickly what the agenda is (if it's not already clear). If he has an agenda of his own, he makes that clear, too, and doesn't hide his agenda within the discussion. If you want to be in touch with reality, with the mainstream of America and its issues, it's important to be familiar with Bill Maher's show.

Give me a call or shoot me an e-mail. If I can help, I'll be happy to.

That much is true, but in his case it is a big whoop, since so many others on television and radio are just butt-stoopid and have no concept of critical thinking or hard reasoning. He does.

He spouts off in a manner that make people think for themselves, and when people think for themselves they change things, things that actually affect you. The things they change can be very important to you.

Some TV personalities are just entertainment, but some are far more than that. Some make a difference. Hеll, Saturday Night Live, clearly an entertainment and comedy show, had a direct influence on at least two different elections. to dismiss this phenomena or the reality of it, to ignore the mainstream of America, could very well have an effect on money in your pocket and food on your table. Over the last 30 years, especially from the influence of MTV and others fueling and fostering the need for instant gratification, has created a culture of impatience and need it now, which is why expediting was invented. So I'm not sure sure that it's all so unimportant.

It's not really an opinion, though. Mainstream is a verifiable, quantifiable thing. Something is either mainstream, or it's not, within whatever constraints you place on the premise. Things like Bill Maher and his show are absolutely a part of the mainstream of American culture. Those who have not heard of him or are unfamiliar with him are not a part of the mainstream of American culture. It's really that simple. There are a lot of television shows that I've never seen which are part of the mainstream of American culture.

What ever you want to believe is ok with me. You can have your mainstream and I have mine. It is on the Trenton Channel, by that rock. That "mainstream" produces food!! GOOD food at that. Nothing better than fresh caught walleye.

If I have to watch tv or know who is on it to be "mainstream" then I am happy not to be.

My American culture provides jobs, for real people. I know because I fork over the money to them and they survive another day. That is all that counts.

And now, reality sets in. I have a load in the morning. I am cooling my box down a bit, I have to make -20C tomorrow and it was at +25C. Long run, NY to WA. I need some Z's , have a good one!!

 

[Pilgrim]

For those who have forgotten what Bill Maher said that got his program cancelled:

Maher had also commented toward “President George W. Bush” and others when they called the September 11th terrorist attacks "cowardly" . Bill was quoted as saying in response to that: "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away, that's cowardly, staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly”.

Politically Incorrect TV Show Episodes ABC - Politically Incorrect TV Series & Episodes

Having never watched any of his shows, I'm not qualified to comment one way of the other about the content. But I get the impression that he and his writers make it their goal to come up with the most inflammatory comments and take the most controversial positions possible in order to create interest and draw attention to themselves. They certainly succeeded when he made that comment on his show airing from New York six days after the 9/11 attacks.

 

[RLENT]

This silly discussion is not worth diverting all that much attention too.

And yet you are drawn to it .... like a moth is drawn to the flame ....

Maybe if and when I finish this I will rattle your chain a bit more, or maybe not.

Heheheheh ..... is that what's been occurring here - you, rattling my chain ?

...... yeeaah ....

I'd say that little bit of self-delusion is just further evidence of being utterly divorced from reality ...

Sounds to me like you're getting ready to make a hasty retreat ...

It would be far more likely if you came up with an argument that had any real bearing on my life.

But I'm not trying to come up with an argument that has any bearing on your life .... I was just trying to point out how truly out of touch you are ....

This one does not.

Good .... I assume that this will be the last we will hear from you on the matter then ?

Oh, wait ..... I see you have managed to respond three more times to this thread since you wrote those words .... and who knows how many times before that ..... all after repeatedly saying this matter is unimportant to you ....

..... like a moth drawn to a flame .....

(said in the classic voice of "Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives." ..... which BTW, would also be considered to be part of the cultural mainstream ....)

 

[RLENT]

Having never watched any of his shows, I'm not qualified to comment one way of the other about the content. But I get the impression that he and his writers make it their goal to come up with the most inflammatory comments and take the most controversial positions possible in order to create interest and draw attention to themselves.

Man, this kinda thing is just literally too good to be true .... it's like manna from Heaven ....

First, you say that you have never watched the show ..... and so aren't qualified to comment one way or another (by virtue of being entirely ignorant on the matter) .... I'm with ya up to here ..... but then you directly proceed to go ahead and offer your "impressions" of it (which come from where, exactly ? ..... given that you have seen nary an episode ) like it would actually mean something of any significance .....

Seriously, one couldn't make it up if they tried .....

Are you really that intellectually dishonest, even to just yourself personally ?

For real ?

 

[Turtle]

Trying to be controversial or inflammatory is really not what he's all about at all. A compilation of inflammatory and controversial comments like the one above would be a short list, indeed. He really only crossed that line between "political satire" and "wholly unacceptable" that one time, mainly because he did it too soon, before people were ready for anything like that. Comedy and political satire is one of those things that when it works, it's great, but when it doesn't, you say, "I can't believe they did that," and that's what happened to Bill Maher that night. He subsequently apologized for his comments, especially for those who took it to be a disparaging comment on the military, of which it wasn't. The guy has won awards for championing free speech in saying what needs to be said, in asking the hard questions in honest fashion. If you've never watched much of Bill Maher, you've missed out on a lot of very thought provoking discussions.

If you've never really watched his show, here's a clip from his show a couple of weeks ago, and it's a perfect example of what all goes on during the show. YouTube - Congressman Issa Gets Real with Bill Maher

After you watch that one, then watch this one. It's a continuation of the previous one, where it moves from the more serious on into the New Rules segment.
Bill Maher - New Rules! 14 May 2010 on Vimeo

 

[jimby82]

Priceless. Maher in his own words: (Bold emphasis mine)

Now if you’re just out of the mainstream, if you don’t have blind Bush love, you are somehow suspect. Don’t ever let them tell you that. Be out of the mainstream. I’m out of the mainstream. I enjoy it, who wants to be in the mainstream? When Ronald Reagan was running, he would always say ‘it’s morning in America’ and everybody would smile and I would think ‘yeah but, I’m not a morning person’. I’m the guy who thinks religion is bad and drugs are good. I think children aren’t innocent, god doesn’t write books, and Jesus wasn’t a republican. I think girls hate each other, no doesn’t mean no and being drunk is funny. I’m for mad cow disease, how am I gonna win that? I’m against suing tobacco companies. I think abstinence is a perversion. I think Bush’s lies are worse than Clinton’s. I think Vegas was better when it was run by the mob. I think men are only as loyal as their options. I think stereotypes are true and rehab is for quitters.
Sourced
Victory Begins at Home, January 20, 2004

 

[RLENT]

Now, you just have to figure which mainstream it is that he is referring to ...... (hint: it ain't the same one I am talking about )

 

[jimby82]

I would take it that you are referring the American Cultural Mainstream? And yes I realize the Maher is referring to the American Political Mainstream. But then again, since the political would be a subset of the cultural mainstream as a whole, where does that leave Mr. Maher?

My point is this. You are familiar with Mr. Maher, his political views and his outlooks. Not everyone else is. In fact, I would argue most Americans are not. Just because you consider someone or something to be "mainstream", does not make it so. Are you the new found arbiter of what is and what is not mainstream in American society? Must have missed the memo.

Pretty presumptuous on your part, don't you think?

 

[LDB]

Jimby, don't you realize some people are perfect and know absolutely everything, including other people's true thoughts and meanings?

 

[jimby82]

So I've noticed!