Vehicle Maintenance Violations and Team driving

[layoutshooter]

"I know, maybe converting to LED helps, you rich FedEx people should get a group discount for the lights and have that place that does the Qualcomm work install them for you."

What does being leased with FedEx have to do with ANY of this? Strange statement.

 

[ATeam]

Does a co-driver not fill out a log book?.....how do you get around woren tires? they just don't happen in 11 hours do they?

Scenario: Team drivers coming off an extended break. On break, co-driver 1, strapped for cash sells good tires to another trucker for bad ones without co-driver 2 knowing. The person buying the good tires paid the tire shop to make the change so co-driver 1 has no receipt.

Co-driver 2 knows nothing about any of this and does no pre-trip because it is not his or her turn to drive. Co-driver 2 just gets in the sleeper and Co-driver 1 rolls down the road and gets pulled into the scale where bad tires are discovered.
Co-driver 2's most recent post-trip was completed days ago and no pre-trip has yet been done.

2 would say to the cop, I have no idea how these tires got that way. They were fine when I looked at them during my last post-trip. And 2 would be telling the truth.

How would the officer know any different, and on what basis could a legitimate citation then be issued?

Obviously, co-driver 1 deserves a citation for running with bad tires. But co-driver 2? I think not.

Even if co-driver two was party to the tire switch and had falsely stated that the tires were fine on last shift's log book. If 2 told the officer the tires were fine when last inspected by me, how would the officer know any different, in a way that a citation would stick?

Driver 1: on duty, guilty as sin, cited.
Driver 2: not on duty, guilt is questionable without additonal information. And if no additonal info is provided to the officer, I don't see how a citation can be properly issued to the off-duty driver.

"At the time of inspection" are very important words. Assuming something did or did not happen ought not be the basis for writing a ticket.

Also consider a slip seat situation where a company may run different people in that truck at different times. Drivers 1 and 2 may know all about the tire switch but a third driver who starts working on another day may know nothing about it. Should driver 3 be cited when driver 3 has done no pre-trip and driver 1 is at the wheel at the time of inspection? I don't think so.

 

[moose]

Well, Greg
it is about money.
here are only 2 figures from this last week press release by the ATA.
* 2nd quarter turnover rate by it's member continue to rise (as planed & execute may i add), and is set for 76% !!!
(that's mean that out of 100 drivers worked for them only a year ago, only 24 are still drives).
only 8 short months after full implantation of CSA.
CSA is VERY good for the ATA. business.
* last quarter the ATA spent 396 million $ on lobbying WDC.
(that's despite a 2009 law allowing lobbyists group's to threaten lawmakers, without the actual needs of spending the money) .
sorry Greg, we're not blind.

Well, Phil,
i might be the last to answer this, but on the drivers log, one needs to fill out the other drivers name,ext.
(i do not know how roadside inspections for teams works, as i was only twice being stopped for one, as team drivers.)
can't the officer asked for the other driver logs, even if the driver never stick his head out of the sleeper ?
don't he supposed to compere those 2 logs match, and do not overlaps ?
just asking.

 

[ATeam]

Well, Phil,
i might be the last to answer this, but on the drivers log, one needs to fill out the other drivers name,ext.
(i do not know how roadside inspections for teams works, as i was only twice being stopped for one, as team drivers.)
can't the officer asked for the other driver logs, even if the driver never stick his head out of the sleeper ?
don't he supposed to compere those 2 logs match, and do not overlaps ?
just asking.

Yes to all of the questions you ask above. But see the scenarios I posted above. I see no way that an officer can write a ligimiate citation to an off-duty driver for an equipment violation when it cannot be proven that the off duty driver had knowledge of it. Citations are issued for violations seen at the time of inspection, not for things the officer cannot verify.

There are cops and former cops who read this Open forum. Can one of you weigh in and help clear this up?

I know of a real-world case where a husband-wife team were pulled into an Indiana scale and given a level one inspection. A loose U-bolt on the truck body was found and cited. The cop wrote up violations on both drivers, even though only one was on duty at the time. CSA points were charged to both drivers.

The problem with this is that the cop had no way of knowing when the U-bolt came loose. It makes sense to cite the on duty driver but as far as anyone knows, it is the absolute truth that the U-bolt was tight when the other driver did her post-trip.

Just the other day I discovered a front shock absorber bushing that was loose on our truck. I check it frequently. One day it was tight. The next day it was loose and was found to be loose on my shift. If a scale cop found it, should Diane get a ticket too? I think not. (BTW, two front shocks were replaced the next day).

 

[moose]

Phil, WOTR, look at the time laps.
i was responding to your 1st post, not the 2nd one.
to the best of my knowledge (and the rezone i'v started this thread).
the carrier was 'ding', not by the officer, but by the CSA score system, once a warning was filed for a team drivers truck, on a Vehicle maintenance violation. the safety manager was all over that team. as you know the last 24 mounts score was just updated a few days ago.

 

[ATeam]

This is for all you guys running California.They have a law that even though your fire extinguisher is inside your cab,not side box,you still need signadge on the door that your extinguisher is inside the cab.They are the only state that requires this.I passed a DOT there at Banning,but in the notes he put about the fire extinguisher.No points at least not yet

This is news to me, but before I run off and put "fire extinguisher inside" on our truck, I'd like to know the rule that requires it. I did a search of the California Vehicle Code but found no reference to or requirement for the signs.

In the notes the officer put on your inspection form, was any vehicle code number or other reference given? If so, what was it?

We have been through a few inspections in California. We have no fire extinguisher signs. No mention was made about not having signs.

 

[ATeam]

Phil, WOTR, look at the time laps.
i was responding to your 1st post, not the 2nd one.
to the best of my knowledge (and the rezone i'v started this thread).
the carrier was 'ding', not by the officer, but by the CSA score system, once a warning was filed for a team drivers truck, on a Vehicle maintenance violation. the safety manager was all over that team. as you know the last 24 mounts score was just updated a few days ago.

I see I misunderstood your post. The problem now sounds more like a CSA computer glitch. Carriers are getting real sensitive about CSA points these days. I would think that they would be all over that problem to get it corrected as soon as the negative and unfair effects were discoverd.

If the safety manager was all over the team, it could have been out of a desire to see better truck inspections done by those drivers. But the double assignment of CSA points sounds like a computer glitch to me.

It's not always about the money. Note that it is a warning ticket you mention. No fines there. CSA points do not have monetary fines assigned to them either. Violations do but CSA points do not. CSA points assigned off a warning ticket would not be a monetary event.

 

[greg334]

What does being leased with FedEx have to do with ANY of this? Strange statement.

it's a sarcastic statement that states the obvious - you have worries about lights going out, convert to a reliable lighting system.

Moose, I don't see what driver turn over has to do with anything, there isn't this massive exodus of drivers as much as there has been a shortage of drivers in this industry. The facts seemed to point that driver retention is still a problem that is solved by the management of the individual carriers and not the CSA and there is a cost related to that revolving door policy that is in the industry which will catch up to the industry soon enough.

The money I was talking about it the fine revenue that the states seem to enjoy. This issue that everyone seems to be talking about isn't enhanced by the CSA, but rather the state always had the "right" to enforce the laws and now they choose to do so.

 

[layoutshooter]

"it's a sarcastic statement that states the obvious - you have worries about lights going out, convert to a reliable lighting system."


There is NO such thing, yet, like a headlight that will not burn out. Even the LED lights do. I used the headlight EXAMPLE because it is real life, just happened on our truck 2 weeks ago. I was awake, my wife was asleep. FedEx had nothing to do with it. Neither did the massive riches I am amounting while leased with them.

 

[TeamCaffee]

I questioned others more knowledgeable than myself on CSA and this is the reply I received:


Warnings concerning a noted violation during a roadside inspection can be challenged through the DataQ process. If a violation of FMCSA regulations is noted and just a warning is shown on the inspection report, the violation still existed and CSA points are warranted under the current regulation. If, however, the warning is noted for a State or non-FMCSA violation, and CSA points are assigned, the issuance of the points can and should be challenged. For example, if California has a regulation the requires a fire extinguisher sign on a CMV, that may earn a driver a citation but CSA point issuance is neither likely nor warranted.

Severity weight multipliers seem to be misunderstood by some, as well. the 3, 2 and 1 multiplier is related to time interval since the violation was cited; it has nothing to do with the severity of the violation.

Only the driver of a CMV should receive CSA points for a violation in the unsafe driving and vehicle maintenance BASICs. Either driver, co-driver or each could be cited for one or more violations in any of the Fatigued Driving (HOS), Driver Fitness (no valid CDL, Med. certificate), or Controlled Substances/Alcohol BASICs.

The BASICs and their associated severity weight points were developed under the premise that CMV crashes can be traced to the behavior of motor carriers and/or drivers. We may disagree with any of the FMCSA regulations, but as professional drivers, we are obliged to comply with them and be accountable if we fail to do so.

 

[greg334]

Warnings concerning a noted violation during a roadside inspection can be challenged through the DataQ process. If a violation of FMCSA regulations is noted and just a warning is shown on the inspection report, the violation still existed and CSA points are warranted under the current regulation.

This is the problem, the officer gives you a warning and not a citation, the points are added as if it is a citation with no recourse to correct it. It is not just a flaw, but a serious problem because there isn't anything that shows the difference in your score's aggregate.

In addition the citation is defined as what is used to force a correction to a problem or issue - in other words it is the violation - not a warning. A warning has no real weight to it and should not be a replacement for a citation on any level.

I wonder why isn't anyone making a big fuss out of the warning issue seeing it is the way to abuse a driver through the CSA.

Layout, yes they make the parts for a reliable lighting system and they make lights for every part of the truck now, from the headlight to the marker light. Some are made with cheap chinese LEDs while others which I don't see too often for trucks are made with quality components.

 

[layoutshooter]

Layout, yes they make the parts for a reliable lighting system and they make lights for every part of the truck now, from the headlight to the marker light. Some are made with cheap chinese LEDs while others which I don't see too often for trucks are made with quality components.[/QUOTE]


NO one, that I am aware if, even advertises a light of any type that will not go out. I would have a hard time believing a company that did advertise one. I would expect to see that on a late night infomercial. You know, the "pitch" follow by "but WAIT!!!!"......

Headlights have become much better over the years, but ANYTHING can fail. Wiring can fail, shoot, you EXPECT wiring to fail if you have an M2. The wiring is a weak as their A/C systems.

I am replacing both tail lights AND the defective wiring harness for them in November or December. They will not stand up to another winter. Switching them over to LED's.

 

[greg334]

You are saying they don't exist but I am saying they do.

I also didn't say anything about your truck, I am talking in general and knowing your truck is a problem for many, it would not be my choice of vehicle to use.

An LED light has a longer life than the old lamps and yes they do go out but if they are of quality components, they may last longer than the truck itself.

But if I sat here and posted every little detail of a 'bullet proof' lighting system, my post would be pages long.

Yes it can be done, a reliable lighting system on a truck.

 

[layoutshooter]

You are saying they don't exist but I am saying they do.

I also didn't say anything about your truck, I am talking in general and knowing your truck is a problem for many, it would not be my choice of vehicle to use.

An LED light has a longer life than the old lamps and yes they do go out but if they are of quality components, they may last longer than the truck itself.

But if I sat here and posted every little detail of a 'bullet proof' lighting system, my post would be pages long.

Yes it can be done, a reliable lighting system on a truck.

You are saying that you can provide a headlight with a 100% guaranty that it will NEVER go out? Post the link to the store that sells it.

I am well aware that quality LED lights have a longer lifespan then other types of lights. ANYTHING man makes can and will fail.

 

[ATeam]

Only the driver of a CMV should receive CSA points for a violation in the unsafe driving and vehicle maintenance BASICs. Either driver, co-driver or each could be cited for one or more violations in any of the Fatigued Driving (HOS), Driver Fitness (no valid CDL, Med. certificate), or Controlled Substances/Alcohol BASICs.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[beachbum]

I guess that's how stupid OOIDA is. You don't have a CVSA inspection sticker on the window unless you were inspected by a DOT officer.

If they were talking about the annual DOT inspection, all it has to be is on the vehicle and have a copy of the inspection on the vehicle.

 

[beachbum]

Layshooter, since when doe Ca give out a list of approved shops, last time I looked they have a bunch of names on a wall you can call but they never give a list since they can be fired for that. Comes down to years ago and kick backs that officers were getting for companies.

You can call any repair shop you want as long as their a legal business in Ca. for repairs

 

[beachbum]

Let's see for me I take the warning any day of the week, yes there's points going to the company and me, but I'm not out any cash.

Only a fool and I use the term loosely would take a ticket. When you take a ticket you have to either go into court yourself or hire a lawyer. Costs money either way. If your found guilty, which is the case most of the time. It costs you more money.



If you win the court case you still have to fight the points thru FMCSA, it still takes the issuing officer to agree with you to get the FMCSA to remove the points. Not a done deal, since the officer in most cases will never change his or her mind.

 

[ATeam]

Let's see for me I take the warning any day of the week, yes there's points going to the company and me, but I'm not out any cash.

Only a fool and I use the term loosely would take a ticket. When you take a ticket you have to either go into court yourself or hire a lawyer. Costs money either way. If your found guilty, which is the case most of the time. It costs you more money.



If you win the court case you still have to fight the points thru FMCSA, it still takes the issuing officer to agree with you to get the FMCSA to remove the points. Not a done deal, since the officer in most cases will never change his or her mind.

Moose is not talking about a ticket. He is talking about a warning ticket, which is a non-monetary event.

However, one of the criticisms that the new CSA system gave rise to is the fact that while a warning ticket carries CSA points, it is not a ticket that can be fought in court. The officer did not issue a citation, just a warning that cannot be disputed in court because no charge was made.

 

[layoutshooter]

Layshooter, since when doe Ca give out a list of approved shops, last time I looked they have a bunch of names on a wall you can call but they never give a list since they can be fired for that. Comes down to years ago and kick backs that officers were getting for companies.

You can call any repair shop you want as long as their a legal business in Ca. for repairs

This was several years ago, when I was driving for an owner. The "officer" handed us a list on a printed sheet of paper. I doubt if it was "California" but more likely that officer. I had no recourse. He had already put us out of service. I truly believe that he cut that brake chamber too. It was around 2AM CA time.