Van (A-B unit) questions

[Packmule]

Excellent points Rich and Cheri!!
Do school bus drivers transporting these childern Log?
Do cab drivers (some who work 2 jobs) LOG?
Do Tour bus drivers LOG?
Do UPS FEDEX and other local delivery drivers LOG?
How do we know if they are getting proper sleep/rest time!
During the Holiday season it is not unusal to see UPS Trucks start at 6AM and still be delivering at 8PM...6 days /week.

Don't mean to make such a negative issue of this, I just feel it should be uniform from State to State.
I am in fact in favor of commerical truck logging provided we had someone with a little common sense and understanding of a Truckers life style, making up the HOS rules.

By the way, how many scale houses in Alabama? I can only remember 1.

Dan

 

[fastrod]

If you were running loads in your van you were not off duty. This is an area where even some DOT officers do not know what is right. This is an area that people running vans need to research. I could be wrong on this, but this is what I have been told.

 

[bigjoep89]

Concrete truck driver 15 years
Concrete sales mgr, 13 years.
Expediter 1.5 years.
FedEx CC

I have alot of faith in FedEx safety department. I was told We only need to log on hazment loads. However when doing a hazment load we must show our on duty hours for the past seven days. If you drive a A-B unit for FedEx the safety will supply you with this past seven day form. I have been doing as decribed above and have had no problems.

 

[greg334]

You all can argue until the cows come home - off duty/on duty.... moo

What I have been told by several LEOs has been consistant - the only need to log in states that can require it (the states can deviate from the federal laws as they see fit) you only log when you have a Hazmat load and you do not have to abide by the HOS rules, sleeper rules and logging rules out side of the above two.

I asked about the falsifying of logs if I mark off duty for the previous 7 days and the answer I got from the state of michigan was I am a van and under 10K - logging is only required for hazmat and it is only needed when the vehicle is loaded.

Also many are forgeting the local or 150 mile rule for local delivery companies.

PackMule - yes you may be correct in the CDL thing, but here in Michigan you are required to get a Chauffeur's license before you get a CDL. Don't ask me why but I think it is just to get that $10 fee. Also I see that we have farm endorsments, just wondered if that is also a uniformed law?

 

[Packmule]

Greg,

Not sure how that works, but we have farm endorsements here in SC also.
It all comes down to one thing...weather we agree or disagree with the logging rules, just like HOS, we have to abide by the rules or pay the fines.

Dan

 

[highway star]

States do have the right to enact laws that are more strict than federal regulations. Having said that, most of this is a very gray area subject to interpretation. Anybody that stopped at a scale or called the DOT got the opinion of the person that they talked to. You could easily stop at that same scale a week later and get a totally different opinion from another officer.

 

[fastrod]

bigjoep89 What your saying is that you can not just show 7 days off duty, right. You have to show your actual on duty hours for those 7 days.

 

[cheri1122]

As Highway Star pointed out, the answer Greg got in Michigan was quite different to the answer I got in Ohio. The requirement to log includes accounting for the prior seven days, which cannot be done in an accurate manner without either logging all the time, or logging it as off duty, or simply filling it in to the best of one's ability - mostly, making it up. AKA "falsifying a legal document". Unless there is another alternative I haven't thought of, I'm going with the "off duty" option, as the lesser of three evils.

 

[DanJ]

>States do have the right to enact laws that are more strict
>than federal regulations. Having said that, most of this is
>a very gray area subject to interpretation. Anybody that
>stopped at a scale or called the DOT got the opinion of the
>person that they talked to. You could easily stop at that
>same scale a week later and get a totally different opinion
>from another officer.

And further to that, that second officer isn't going to really care that the first guy said it was okay to log off duty for the past 7 days. His interpretation is you need to show on duty hours, or failing that, he's parking you for 10 hours. Nothing you can really do at that point, unless you have a wireless internet connection with you in the van and can pull up the specific DOT regulation that supports your argument.

Here in Ontario, we have a 160km (100 miles) radius zone, similar to your 150 mile zone, where logging isn't required. The highway exits from my home terminal to my turnaround terminal in Toronto are 156km apart. The straight line distance according to Google Earth is about 148km. I run a log anyway, just in case that new guy at the scale one night decides I run far enough to need a log.

 

[nighttrain]

i know i was told i didnt have to log except for hazmat loads period
but when i went back to the c truck was told i had to do a 7 day prior shhet which it was sent,but because i couldnt remember the exact times i drove or how many miles i did i thought hey no logs dont worry about it i was wrong
i just logged off-duty the 7 days when i was in cargo van only had 4 runs the 7 days i was in that cargo van and safety was ok with it

i guess it comes down to it is to go ahead an either write your hours and miles down somewhere in case u do need to log or just keep a log handy
but if u do keep a log and u drive over the 10 hours that u need to do in a bigger truck would u then get a hos violaton
cause in a van u can drive longer that 10
the federal goverment will come up with something to confuse and make it harder for drivers to do their jobs even more i guess
but again i heard that they were going to make it for vans and other commerical vehelice to log i think and to do scales

 

[bigjoep89]

Concrete truck driver 15 years
Concrete sales mgr, 13 years.
Expediter 1.5 years.

Fastrod . That is correct:

 

[Turtle]

A commercial motor vehicle is defined, in part, by FMSCA DOT regulations as, "any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle..."

Has a gross vehicle weight of 10,001 pounds or greater. (Gross vehicle weight (GVW) being the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single motor vehicle.)

OR

Hauling placardable HAZMAT.

**********


That means, if you are in a cargo van, and the GVW is less than 10,000 pounds, and you are not hauling HAZMAT in an amount that requires a placard, you are not a commercial vehicle, and are therefore not required to scale or log except in certain, rare circumstances.

If you are in a state where the sign says for 'all trucks and commercial vehicles' to enter the scales, unless you fit the requirements for being classified as a commercial vehicle above, then you don't have to scale, since you're not a commercial vehicle. This is true even in Kentucky, where I live.

If the signs say all commercial vehicles over 4000 pounds must scale, then, generally, you have to scale. But usually, it's only if you are loaded, not empty. In some states, like Wyoming, for example, scaling only applies to cargo vans if you are picking up or delivering in Wyoming. Just passing through doesn't apply.

The vast majority of HAZMAT materials cannot even be transported in a van. Inhalation hazards, poisons, explosives, etc., in any amount, must be transported in a vehicle that has a physical separation of the load from the driver, i.e., a box or box trailer that is separate and apart from the cab or driver compartment. A bulkhead in a van, even a sealed bulkhead, does not qualify.

If it is the type of HAZMAT that can be transported in a cargo van, like paint, most solvents, batteries, all Class 9 materials, etc., most of these will be non-placardable if the amount is less than 1001 pounds. If you are carrying less-than 1001 pounds of HZAMAT materials, you do not have to log.

If you are carrying an amount of placardable HAZMAT in a cargo van, then you must log, and you must scale, in all states.

If you are in Alabama you must log from the time you enter the state until the time you leave the state, HAZMAT or not. You also have to scale in Alabama, but they only have one permanent scale, located at the Georgia state line on I-20. They do have 10 mobile scales, however, that move around a lot, so if you see one you have to enter it.

When you log in a van, you MUST accurately account for the last 7 days. Failure to do so with almost certainly get you parked for 10 hours. However, the time that must be accounted for is time spent as a commercial vehicle. If, in the past 7 days you weren't hauling placardable HAZMAT, or driving in Alabama, then your commercial vehicle status for those days would be Off-Duty. If, for example, 3 days ago you had a placardable HAZMAT load, then you would show that on the 7 days' accounting, and you would be Off-Duty all of the rest of that time.

If you should choose to log all of the time in a van, though I don't know why anyone would, then your logs MUST be accurate, and you MUST comply with the Hours of Service regulations.

 

[terryandrene]

Bravo Turtle. You have a 100% agreement with this van operator. I have never considered my van to be commercial vehicles, except within those few States that have stronger Regulations than my State of Missouri or those very other few such as Iowa, Wisconsin, Alabama, and Michigan.

 

[cheri1122]

Thank you, Turtle, for clarifying it! My point has always been that we are simply told to log the prior seven days, when we need to log, but recreating the prior seven days in increments of 15 minutes, or even just hours behind the wheel, is impossible. Defining "on duty" as time spent "on duty in a situation that requires logging" makes it a standard we can attain. I mostly blame myself for being put OOS in my example, because I should have refused to haul a loggable load until the Safety Dept clarified what was meant by logging the prior seven days. Thanks to EO, I can cross that item off my list. (The one that's currently into 2015, I think :+ )

 

[MDB1]

O.K. I want to stir this pot again. Last March I was at the MATS, that big truck show in Louisville, and the Kentucky Vehicle Enforcement Division (the guys that operate the scale houses) had a booth near the expediters area. A discussion about whether or not vans had to "scale" in Kentucky had been going on in this forum some time previous to that so I talked to one of the officers and asked him directly, "Do cargo vans have to go across the scales in Kentucky?" His reply was, "All commercial vehicles have to go across the scales." I then explained that, by DOT definition, my cargo van is NOT a commercial vehicle (the same as stated by Turtle, above). His response to me was, "Are you engaged in commerce?" And I said, "Well, yes." Then he said, "If you are engaged in commerce in a van in Kentucky you are a commercial vehicle and we expect you to stop at the scales." I asked him, "What if I am empty and off-duty?" He said, "We have no way of knowing if you are off-duty and if we see you by-pass a scale we will pull you over." Those are direct quotes from a Kentucky Vehicle Enforcement Officer. Since having that discussion I ALWAYS stop for open scale houses in Kentucky. Doesn't take very long and insures that they are not going to chase me down.

 

[bryan]

HI

If KY or VA DOT ever chase my van down for running their scale Im going to ask why are the rules different even in the same state.All commercial vehicle signs on I75 I71 and I77 but not on I64 I81 and I85.I understand states having different regulations but how can an individual scale master set differing regulations in the same state.

 

[Turtle]

Since I live in Kentucky, the particulars of this issue has been of great interest to me ever since I first got my CDL. As a result, I have brought this subject up to officers, administrators, a couple of legislators, and lawyers. I would say that most of Kentucky's DOT officers do know the specifics, but some do not. I certainly got some conflicting answers, especially from DOT officers. Surprisingly, the Transportation Cabinet administrators, legislators and lawyers were remarkably consistent in their answers. I Just find it a little unsettling that the very people who are out in the field enforcing the laws aren't really quite sure what those laws are.

It is certainly common sense to think, "If you are engaged in commerce in a van in Kentucky you are a commercial vehicle and we expect you to stop at the scales."

Yet, Kentucky law says differently. The Transportation Cabinet of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, as mandated by KRS 281A.010, has adopted the definition of a commercial vehicle precisely as stated by the federal regulations.

*****
"Commercial motor vehicle," or CMV, means a motor vehicle or combination motor vehicle used in commerce that is:

(a) Designed to carry property and has a gross vehicle weight rating as determined by federal regulation which has been adopted into cabinet administrative regulations pursuant to KRS Chapter 13A;

(b) Designed to transport sixteen (16) or more passengers, including the driver;

(c) Transporting hazardous materials and is required to be placarded in accordance with Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 172; or

(d) Any other vehicle that is required by cabinet administrative regulation, pursuant to KRS Chapter 13A, to be operated by a licensed commercial driver.
*****

While Part (d) above allows for additional vehicle types to be included in the definition, to date there are none, other than some farm and horse transportation vehicles that are not included in the federal regulations (the trasnportation of Kentucky Thoroughbreds is serious business in Kentucky )

Now, having said all that, if you pass a scale and the highly unlikely event of getting pulled over occurs, and you are issued a citation, you'll absolutely beat the ticket. If you are put out of service for failure to enter the scales, you'll absolutely be able to beat that, too, and you can pursue beating just as soon as your OOS time has expired.

If you get a ticket or are put OOS for some other reason, well, you're on your own there.

If you're ever pulled over for failure to enter a Kentucky scale, and they tell you that you're a commercial vehicle, ask for the KRS Statute that defines what a commercial vehicle actually is, because, the KRS Statues have adopted the federal regulations verbatim and they have not been amended by administrative regulation under KRS 13A.


As a side note, Kentucky is one money-hungry state. You have no idea. (I won't bore you with the details, but I've never seen so many inventive ways to double-tax you on stuff, or to tax you on stuff that no one else pays taxes for.) Failure to stop at a scale is serious money. If cargo vans were required to scale, you can bet yer a$$ that there'd be an army of KY DOT bears lined up just past every scale in the state, pulling vans over left and right. Expediters, plumbers, Stanley Steamers, electricians, you name it.

 

[highway star]

MDB1, your post was like deja vu all over again. I last attended MATS in 2000 or 2001 and went to the same booth you did and asked exactly the same, straight forward question you did, and instead of a simple answer got into the same word game. The result was the same, that we should cross.

My earlier post in this thread about not having to cross in Kentucky was based on info from Terry posted eariler this year in the Michgan scale thread. I can only assume that info came from a credible source. This is most likely a good example of a different interpretation of the same law by 2 different people.

Lately, I have'nt been crossing the scales anywhere. You may say,"Highway Star! This is shocking! You're admitting, in a public forum, that you have no respect for the very laws that make us a civilized society!" Easy, easy... I'm not out to start a tax revolt or anything like that. I just believe that most of the officers working the scales don't really care that much about us. They have all they can handle taking care of the big trucks. If this causes me a problem, I'll let you know.

 

[davebeckym]

I haven't been scaling either. From what I've observed, the only vehicles I've seen pulled over are the ones that are real close to 10,001 GVW. Last June, when the DOT was checking all the trucks, I passed a Dot inspection on I 75 rest stop near Mt Morris. Passed the weigh station near Pontiac too. They had 3 10,000 GWV cube trucks pulled over just past the scale.

I think they are real interested in high tops, duel wheels, and cubes.

 

[cheri1122]

Turtle got the info from the only place that counts: the official regulations. Asking any LEO is not gonna get you out of a ticket when the next one pulls you over, but asking them to cite the specific rule you're breaking will, if they can't find it.
Highway Star, if you ever escalate your lawlessness far enough to stage a tax revolt, let me know, ok? Ky doesn't have a monopoly on creative new ways to get your money without calling it that awful T word! You know, the one that causes politicians to fear for their reelection chances...