Using Hair for a drug test

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Springriver: while I haven't flown since before the security got intense at airports, I seriously doubt that characterizing the procedures as a 'sexual assault' is accurate, which casts a shadow upon the accuracy of the rest of your arguments.
And I'd really, really, like for you to be right about the issue of random drug screens.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Cheri, more then Springriver have made the claim that what the TSA does is sexual assualt. Now while the State of Texas hasn't gone as far as to call the searches sexual assualt, they are working on a bill to declare the searches illegal and a Felony:

Texas Bill would make TSA pat-downs a Felony

Apr 30th, 2011 | By Polar Coug (twitter @PolarCoug) | Category: In The News
Texas Bill would make TSA pat-downs a Felony

The Texas Legislature is taking up consideration of a bill that would make it illegal for security officers to intentionally touch a person’s genitalia, even through layers of clothing. Violations of the new law, if implemented, would be felonies. The only exemption to the law would be if the security officer could prove he or she had probable cause to believe the person was carrying something of an illegal nature.

The bill is sponsored by State Rep. David Simpson, R-Longview who says the current body searches by Transportation Security Administration (TSA) personnel remove people’s dignity from them. Simpson maintains that current searches by TSA personnel at airports nationwide constitute a violation of the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches.

The news of this bill’s introduction into the Texas legislature comes on the heels of the news that the former 2003 Miss USA, Susie Castillo, claims she was “molested” in April, 2009 during a pat-down by a TSA officer. To date there has been no official response to the announcement of the bill by the TSA or by any official within the Obama Administration. Nicholas Kimball, a spokesman for the TSA, said that the agency does not comment on pending legislation. “We wish we lived in a world where security procedures weren’t necessary, but that simply isn’t the case,” Kimball said. “We know that terrorists continue trying to manipulate societal norms to evade detection and the measures in place are the best tools currently available to mitigate risk. As we explore ways to improve our approach and become more risk-based and intelligence-driven, we welcome travelers’ feedback and appreciate their understanding.”

Simpson’s bill has now been approved in committee and is awaiting debate by the full House. In addition to Simpson, the bill has attracted 70 co-sponsors, who represent more than 90 percent of the votes required to pass the bill in the Texas House of Representatives. According to Simpson, if the bill becomes law, the only way a TSA agent could avoid prosecution would be if a traveler gives written consent to the pat-down after being fully informed of the extent of the procedure.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
And yet you make my point again.

How? I mean how is the point of a lawless society made here and how is the codified law in US code supersede SC decisions and the constitution?

The constitution gives congress the power "... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" .,however, it expressly forbids the unreasonable search weather regulating commerce or not.

A random test is an unreasonable test by definition.

It does not forbid a search under the law when it regulates an industry. The Federal government is limited by both the fourth amendment to search for criminal activity, but not for regulated activity, THIS issues was brought up in cases where hauling sprites during prohibition. In addition the fourth amendment also doesn't apply to another activity - customs and border control. IF you can be searched without a search warrant at the border, it isn't because there is a US law that says you can't but because the US federal government is charged with the obligation of securing the border, which is the same level of obligation they have to regulate interstate commerce.

The thing speaks for its self, if you want it to say something different you have to change the meaning of the words or the words them selves.

Yes it speaks for itself, it says the job of the federal government is to regulate interstate commerce and they can do that by imposing requirements to qualify to go between states in a commercial vehicle for commercial activity.

IT does not say that there is a restriction nor does it say that the person's rights circumvent that obligation to regulate interstate commerce. Having a drug test is one such requirement that a company who has obtain an authority to operate between states (interstate) has to operate under those regulations and one such regulation is to have random drug testing of drivers under lease or employ.

And while the 1st Amendment forbids an act by Congress the 4th forbids an act by anyone, Congress, any government, any employer, any person, anyone, that’s what the actual written words say, and yet it is not held as the actual law instead we have rule by men who say it is something different.

Actually not really, I don't have to worry about violating your fourth amendment rights because I am not a government employee nor am I operating under instruction of a government agency. What I mean as a citizen, I do not have to obtain a search warrant to gather evidence or find something out. IF I see something that a law enforcement officer can't see, then it can be introduced into evidence without that violation. The same actually goes for an employer who discovers something on their property. IF they turn that evidence over to a law enforcement officer, there is no violation of search and seizure laws.

The rule of law is broken and the more we say its not the more broken it becomes.

The rule of law isn't broken because first you cite US code as one thing and then the fourth amendment as a second thing to back up your claim. Neither has anything to do with the subject at hand or the requirement that any company who has an authority to operate interstate by the federal government and their obligation to meet the requirements of the regulations they operate under.

While the government may not be directly setting your rates, you and I and about 1/3 of the people who work have to ask the government’s permission to work, everything we do has a rule or regulation about how and when it is to be done and by whom, and be ready to prove our innocence at any time day or night for no reason.

THIS I agree with, but it isn't proving our innocents but rather checking to find problems within our industry. THE very reason I don't mind the p*ss in the cup thing is because this industry can't and will never be able to police itself mainly because of the p*ss poor unprofessional attitude many have and thinking about it, the laziness with many of them.

A lot of people can b*tch about it, I don't really care but unless they are ready to start to try to change bad behavior in the industry, they have nothing to b*tch about.

The reason for regulations comes down to the same thing, we can't control ourselves so someone has to.

The reason we have HOS is not because the government wants to have us work x amount of hours but because at one time we were killing ourselves and others on the road due to the fact that many drove 16 and 18 hours a day 7 days a week.

Changing something may be simple and clear in our system, it just that our system does not fallow its own rules so the processes to change are not available to the citizen.

That is because the populous is lazy. Look around, how many are actually in the main stream complaining about things and fighting to get anything changed?

NOT many.

Sure the tea party crowd has made some (little) gains but even with their ultra-conservative attitude towards a smaller government and returning some "civil" liberties to our country, they fail to understand the biggest violation to our liberties is the same system they want to keep - social security and medicare.

Tell me again how the systems not broken and we have the rule of law, it just makes me feel sooo good to hear it.

Would you want to live in France?

Seriously, look around and tell me what is better and what other countries do to fix their problems.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Someone needs to ask the Honorable Mr Simpson just how much dignity we are left with when undergoing a urine drug test, eh?
I know Springriver isn't alone in characterizing the TSA pat downs as sexual assault, I just think it's not at all an accurate characterization of the procedure, and those who feel strongly otherwise are free to make alternate travel plans.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
But Cheri, I consider them sexual assaults too.

I have yet seen one single reason why the TSA is even there, let alone involved with airlines safety - it should be the requirements of the airlines to ensure the safety of the passengers, not the federal government. The airlines should be allowed to profile to ensure proper safety. I don't believe for one second that this would fail because airlines don't look so good if they their passengers to be killed.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I think profiling should be allowed - no, make that mandatory, for security.
As for a pat down being a sexual assault, do you feel the same about being measured for a custom made pair of pants?
The point is, there's nothing sexual about it - it's business, and serious business, you ask me.
Like those who 'can't' fly [because of phobias], if it's that big a deal, take a train.
 

springrivergroup

Seasoned Expediter
Springriver: while I haven't flown since before the security got intense at airports, I seriously doubt that characterizing the procedures as a 'sexual assault' is accurate, which casts a shadow upon the accuracy of the rest of your arguments.
And I'd really, really, like for you to be right about the issue of random drug screens.

Not my call.

A former Miss USA was sexually molested by TSA at Dallas airport where the agency employee touched her vagina four times and felt her breasts. She is now telling her story, encouraging others to take a stand for liberty and said the government practice is "a total violation of our rights."

and now

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — A former Miss USA's tearful claim that she was groped during a pat-down at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport could be a criminal matter under a bill gaining momentum in the Texas Legislature.

The proposed Texas law, aimed at people conducting security checkpoints at airports and public buildings, would make it a felony to intentionally touch someone's private areas — even on top of clothing — unless the officer or agent has probable cause to believe the person is carrying something illegal.

and

Flight attendant Megan N. writes on the we won't fly facebook page.

I am a Flight Attendant for a major airline. I am currently out on disability because of a hip replacement. My husband (who is a pilot) and I flew out of Portland,Maine on November 9th, to New York for my 6 week follow up appointment. I had… my other hip replaced back in 2008 and totally know the entire procedure going through security. So I THOUGHT!

My husband waited for me on the opposite side through security with all of my belongings while I endured the “new” pat down procedure. I was asked by the female TSA agent if I wanted a private screening and I said no because I had did not expect what was about to happen.

The agent went up my right leg first and then met my vagina with full force….the same on the other leg with the same result. She then used both of her hands to feel my breasts and squeezing them. At this point I was in shock.

When I came out of security my husband asked me. “What the hell was that?”. I have never felt so humiliated and violated. I have gone through the stages of being a sexual assault victim…Shock,Denial,Blame,Pain,Anger…I have yet to come with the Acceptance stage.

The bottom line here: We are ALL American citizens and should not be forced to succumb to a government agency that is clearly violating our Fourth Amendment!

Thank you for opening up this FB page. WE need to get the word out and fight for our civil liberty’s that are being taken away. This is HUGE!

do a search on tas and sexual assault it goes on and on.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I'd be willing to bet the number of women [mostly] who have "tearfully" complained about being sexually assaulted by a Dr or dentist is much higher...
It's all about perception, and my perception is that if certain areas of the body are off limits, that's precisely the loophole terrorists will find a way to exploit - it's what they do, and they're very good at it.
PS Have neither of these women ever had a mammogram, for cryin out loud? That's an assault!:eek:
 

springrivergroup

Seasoned Expediter
The constitution gives congress the power "... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" .

,however,

it expressly forbids the unreasonable search weather regulating commerce or not.

A random test is an unreasonable test by definition.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"As for a pat down being a sexual assault, do you feel the same about being measured for a custom made pair of pants?"

Sure have been measured and have NEVER had anything touched that should not be in the process. I also, when I working in the hunting clothes department at Cabela's, had to measure men and women for alterations. There was no need to get up to "ground zero" to do that. No one ever complained about being groped.

The government is out of control.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The constitution gives congress the power "... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" .

,however,

it expressly forbids the unreasonable search weather regulating commerce or not.

A random test is an unreasonable test by definition.

I got that but see you are not complaining about the idea that they can't search someone at a border crossing without a warrant, so I contend that the p*ssing in the cup is not unreasonable nor unexpected as a search by a customs official doing their job at the border.
 

springrivergroup

Seasoned Expediter
I got that but see you are not complaining about the idea that they can't search someone at a border crossing without a warrant, so I contend that the p*ssing in the cup is not unreasonable nor unexpected as a search by a customs official doing their job at the border.

If its a random test by definition its an unreasonable test.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
But what's random?

The carrier who has to do the testing can have a schedule to show that they will test this and that driver on specific dates, so is that random?

What about customs?

Are they allowed to follow their obligation to inspect the vehicle and person entering the country or is this also a violation of the fourth amendment?
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
All random drug test or searches are a direct violation of Section 242 of Title 18 of the United States Code, and punishable by fines and or imprisonment, or death.

United States Code is supreme to DOT or any company rules.

Don’t says it’s the law to have random drug test when the actual law of the US makes it a felony to force it on a driver by holding their ability to make a living hostage.

When our government actually starts to fallow the LAW this country will begin to become great again.
How do people using lllegal drugs make this country great? They know they are breaking the law just by having the drugs and it should be illegal to use the drugs too I will loose no sleep knowing another druggie is off the road in jail
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Sexual assault does not necessarily involve sexual intent, it is an unwelcome physical contact with the genitalia or breasts.

There are many situations that require that physical contact [mostly involving a doctor or Xray tech] that we accept without batting an eye. If someone cannot accept it for the purpose of security on airplanes, they have options: having it done in private, or simply traveling by other means.
I accept it as a necessary precaution, far more justified than random drug screening.
 

bobwg

Expert Expediter
Sexual assault does not necessarily involve sexual intent, it is an unwelcome physical contact with the genitalia or breasts.
Does anyone remember the underwear bomber on the plane in Detroit????????????????? people do hide things in the private areas drugs,money, oh and maybe explosives
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If its a random test by definition its an unreasonable test.
That's not entirely true. Especially since it's not a random test "by definition," it's a random test "by regulation". Your excellent dissection of the definition of "random", in breaking out "reason" to highlight, failed to also break out "pattern" and "definite aim", both of which can and often do apply to "random". A random drug test without reason would be, by definition, unreasonable, but a random drug test without a pattern doesn't necessarily equate to unreasonable. You also failed to realize that a random drug test most definitely has a reason, not the least of which is deterrence, which doesn't apply to your posted definition of "unreasonable".

Also, you fail to take into consideration that "random drug test" is an entity unto itself (a collective noun) and has its own definition that may or may not be different from separate definitions of the individual nouns within the collective.

US law defines "random drug testing" as “the unscheduled, unannounced urine drug testing of randomly selected individuals in testing designated positions, by a process designed to ensure that selections are made in a non-discriminatory manner.”

Fact is, testing everybody at pre-determined intervals would be unreasonable in most situations.

The drug-testing movement began in 1986, when former President Ronald Reagan signed Executive Order 12564, requiring all federal employees to refrain from using illegal drugs, on or off-duty, as a condition of federal employment. Two years later, Congress passed the Drug-Free Workplace Act of 1988. That, in turn, spawned the creation of federal Mandatory Guidelines for Federal Workplace Drug Testing Programs (Section 503 of PUBLIC LAW 100-71). The mandatory guidelines apply to executive agencies of the federal government, the uniformed services (excepting certain members of the armed forces), and contractors or service providers under contract with the federal government (excepting the postal service and employing units in the judicial and legislative branches).

Although the Act only applies to federal employees, many state and local governments followed suit and adopted similar programs under state laws and drug-free workplace programs.
Constitutional Protections

The U.S. Constitution does not prohibit drug testing of employees. However, in the U.S. Supreme Court case of Treasury Employees v. Von Raab, 489 U.S. 656 (1989), the high court ruled that requiring employees to produce urine samples constituted a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, all such testing must meet the "reasonableness" requirement of the Fourth Amendment (which protects citizens against "unreasonable" searches and seizures). The Court also ruled that positive test results could not be used in subsequent criminal prosecutions without the employee's consent.

The other major constitutional issue in employee drug testing involves the Fifth Amendment (made applicable to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment), which prohibits denial of life, liberty, or property without "due process of law." Since the majority of private-sector employees in the United States (excepting mostly union employees) are considered "at-will employees," an employer need not articulate a reason for termination of employment. However, under certain circumstances, the denial of employment or the denial of continued employment based on drug test results may invoke "due process" considerations, such as the validity of the test results, the employee's right to respond, or any required notice to an employee.

Finally, under the same constitutional provisions, persons have a fundamental right to privacy of their person and property. Drug testing, although in itself deemed legal, may be subject to constitutional challenge if testing results are indiscriminately divulged, if procedures for obtaining personal specimens do not respect the privacy rights of the person, or if testing is unnecessarily or excessively imposed.

The salient part of all this is the simple fact that under federal law, jobs that involve safety or security functions generally require mandatory drug testing of applicants or employees. The U.S. Department of Transportation adopted revised regulations in August 2001, and other agencies are free to adopt their own internal regulations. Likewise, many states expressly mandate drug testing for similar jobs, for example, jobs in the medical and health related fields, security positions, food handling jobs, physically demanding jobs such as utilities cable line installation or climbing, and last but certainly not least, jobs requiring the use of machinery or vehicles.

So using whatever definitions float your boat, federal law and numerous rulings say yer wrong. The landmark case was Shoemaker v. Handel (795 F. 2d 1136 [3rd Cir. 986], where U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals decided that, "warrantless searches or seizures by voluntary participants in [a] highly state regulated...industry are reasonable". Many lower courts began ruling along the same precedent, but the big one was Custom Service employees (National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU) v. Von Raab, 108 S. Ct. 1072, 1988) where the Supreme Court concluded that the testing was reasonable because of the administrative search exception to the Fourth Amendment, and affirmed the state's interest in a drug-free workplace and the protection of "truly sensitive information" over the individual interests of its employees. Suddenly, what had once been the "exception" became the rule. Individual privacy, a right once thought to be guaranteed by the First and Fourth Amendments to the Constitution, was no longer seen as legitimate when balanced against the state interest to win the "War on Drugs."

Furthermore, no longer did the courts require individualized suspicion to uphold drug testing. In fact, the Von Raab ruling demonstrated that urinalysis may now be upheld even when there is no suspicion of drug use at all.

As one law scholar wrote, this approach to justice would be equal to eliminating the need for probable cause standards to search homes because there exists a strong state interest in eliminating crime. America's national concern to combat illicit drug use has wreaked havoc upon the rights delineated in our Constitution, true enough. Unfortunately, as the national zeal toward eliminating drugs in society began to grow exponentially, so did courts' willingness to find more and more "exceptions" to the Fourth Amendment prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures. But for trucking, you still gotta pee in a cup, and it's not unreasonable that you do so, according to the state and the will of the people's zeal to rid the highways of big, scary vehicles driven by impaired drivers.
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
O.K i'm in...

1)
Like anything else we see when new technology's are being introduced into our industry, we ALWAYS have to ask hoe is the stakes holders.
in this case 'Omega Laboratories Inc' have a huge stake in the results of such pilot program.
there for i will question the Transport Topics article to begin with.
no dought in my mind that similar testing by a true arbitrated lab will never yield 11% higher detection rate.

we are being blinded to the fact that the cat is watching the cheese, telling us how good it is.

what did you expect 'Omega Laboratories Inc' to say ?
no need for hair samples ?
Com'on...

2 )
anyone's else concern of the fact that an entry level carrier is recruiting drug abuses to begin with ?
where do they get candidate with such a high % of users ?
wanna bet those candidates where hands picket ?
or maybe Transport topics needs to questions it's sources ?

3 )
beside, the transportation pre employment sector, is such a small market for the drug testing industry, if there was any needs for such technology, it would have being widely used by other industry's by now.

is it all about the money ?
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
All to funney after this thread got started and I posted to it how a certain Person Ran Home.

OH Vernon Vernon where you hiding Hmm in the closet again.

You know what time it is.

You can run but you cant Hide.
 
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