US Army POW is released in swap for 5 Gitmo detainees.

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I have NO problem leaving a coward behind. He LEFT HIS POST, there is NOTHING more to be said.
The above would actually be funny, if it were coming from someone who has previously pontificated on "innocent until proven guilty" ...

Oh ... wait ...

Apparently, the new paradigm is ... "trial by CNN, beyond a reasonable doubt" ... :rolleyes:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
IF he had decided he could no longer serve as ordered he SHOULD have went the route that a man of honor would take, go through proper channels, and deal with the situation.
Well, in that Utopian World, apparently it is assumed that it was actually safe for the individual in question to do so ...

Could be that for some there were very good reasons to ensure that Pat Tillman wound up as worm food ...

Who Killed Pat Tillman?

And it might be similar for Bergdahl ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
From accounts thus far, it appears that he did not have a sudden epiphany of conscience, morals or ethics (if he had he'd have never abandoned his platoon nor his terms of duty).
Possibly a flawed conclusion - because it assumes that there could be no possible circumstances where his behavior - whatever it actually was - might have been appropriate.

Fact is, the only people we've heard from after the fact (other than coerced propaganda statements by Bergdahl himself) are folks who may have an interest in portraying things in a less than accurate light ... and that ranges from the Administration, to the US military, to media, to his captors, to those he served with.

It will be interesting to see what Bergdahl eventually has to say for himself.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Sorry, I though you had served.

WHAT? A recruiter lie? SAY IT AIN'T SO! :eek: LOL!!

Only a FOOL, even at 17 or 18, would not know that a recruiter lies.
Well - fool or not - hopefully paullud's brother completed his military service safely and made it back ok.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Wow ... look ... a sane individual:

I would hope we do anything we could to get our people back, specially our brave soldiers who fight for our freedom. Wether he cracked under pressure, made a mistake or deserted has seemed to be all hearsay. If he deserted he should be tried not left for dead.

I feel one American life is worth way more the 5 terrorist.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Possibly a flawed conclusion -
Possibly, but not likely.

...because it assumes...
It doesn't assume anything, it is based on "from [the] accounts thus far."

Fact is, the only people we've heard from after the fact (other than coerced propaganda statements by Bergdahl himself) are folks who may have an interest in portraying things in a less than accurate light ... and that ranges from the Administration, to the US military, to media, to his captors, to those he served with.
That's not a fact, it's a supposition.

It will be interesting to see what Bergdahl eventually has to say for himself.
That much is certain.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I would hope we do anything we could to get our people back, specially our brave soldiers who fight for our freedom. Wether he cracked under pressure, made a mistake or deserted has seemed to be all hearsay. If he deserted he should be tried not left for dead.

I feel one American life is worth way more the 5 terrorist.

The big concern is that we have now set a standard of negotiating with terrorists which puts us in a weaker position. We have also put many more lives at risk by releasing terrorists that are free to kill again. It was illegal on top of the fact that it was a bad move and that's before we get to the desertion.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using EO Forums mobile app
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Hmmm, interesting.

Yes very interesting.
What's really interesting is I wasn't asserting it as a fact or a certainty ... only a possibility ...

That was covered in the little bit you conveniently left out while wearing your editing hat apparently:

"... he sure might have become ..."

Better luck next time ... ;)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Possibly, but not likely.
We'll see ...

Of course "appropriate" is a matter of opinion, all according to the values one holds.

It doesn't assume anything, it is based on "from [the] accounts thus far."
Of course it does ...

You would have been good if you had just stopped after saying this:

From accounts thus far, it appears that he did not have a sudden epiphany of conscience, morals or ethics ...

And skipped this:

(if he had he'd have never abandoned his platoon nor his terms of duty).
The assumption is that having an epiphany of conscience, morals or ethics, would necessarily prevent him from abandoning his platoon nor his terms of duty ... and that there could not be any circumstances, where what he did was valid based on his own conscience, morals or ethics ...

That's certainly a viewpoint and a belief one can have and hold, but it isn't necessarily the only one possible - not by a long shot ...

That's not a fact, it's a supposition.
I actually have fairly high degree of certainty on it ... at any rate, it was a qualified statement ... ;)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The big concern is that we have now set a standard of negotiating with terrorists which puts us in a weaker position.
Freedom fighters ... seeking to liberate their homeland from an occupying foreign invader ...

We have also put many more lives at risk by releasing terrorists that are free to kill again.
Pssst: freedom fighters ...

Get out of their country and it probably won't be a problem ...

It was illegal on top of the fact that it was a bad move and that's before we get to the desertion.
Funny how when The Shrub was doing his 1200 or so signing statements, asserting how he would interpret and enforce the law, none of the righty-tighties were all aghast as best as I can recall ...

But now that Obama has done about 30 or so of 'em, the sanctimonious hypocrites are all enraged ... after a little political and mass media manipulation of course ...

Too funny.

And BTW ... it's an alleged desertion ...
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
This story stinks, rumor control has it his pappa is a muslim convert. So its a generational thing I guess.
Evidently "rumor control" is some thing that exists in the Right Wing-Nut-O-Sphere:

Bowe Bergdahl’s Dad on Why He Grew That Beard

Dan Kedmey


June 3, 2014

Robert Bergdahl's beard looked eerily reminiscent of the beards grown by his son's captors, and that was the point

The sight of Bowe Bergdahl’s father standing by President Barack Obama in the White House Rose Garden Saturday might have come as a shock to viewers unfamiliar with his long bushy beard, reminiscent of the facial hair often grown by devotees of Islam, including his sons’ captors. His rudimentary knowledge of Pashto and Urdu, prevailing languages in Taliban strongholds, compounded the confusion.

But as Robert Bergdahl explained to TIME in May 2012, he grew the beard out of a desire to better understand the world from which his son could not escape.


Robert Bergdahl said he began growing the beard as soon as he received news of his son’s capture. He was on his usual UPS delivery route on July 1, 2009, when management radioed him back to headquarters. Two army officers delivered the devastating news, and according to friends, he resolved in that moment to do whatever he could to facilitate his son’s release. That included scouring websites and chat rooms for rumors about his son’s captors, teaching himself Pashto and Urdu and growing a long, eye-catching beard.


A devout Presbyterian, Bergdahl was aware of the impression he made on local congregants. His former pastor told the Washington Post that Bergdahl occasionally explained to friends that he had not developed any sympathies for the Taliban, he only wanted to understand their worldview.


Nonetheless, those attempts to understand the Taliban have occasionally shaded into acts and gestures that strike some critics as a little too close for comfort. Just recently, reports surfaced of a tweet deleted from Bob Bergdahl’s Twitter account that directly addressed a Taliban spokesman. “I am still working to free all Guantanamo prisoners,” it read. “God will repay for the death of every Afghan child, ameen.”
Bowe Bergdahl's Dad on Why He Grew That Beard - TIME

A devout Presbyterian Muslim ...

My goodness ... what will they think of next ?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Of course it does ...
No, it doesn't. What part of "From accounts thus far," are you having difficulty with?

The assumption is that having an epiphany of conscience, morals or ethics, would necessarily prevent him from abandoning his platoon nor his terms of duty ... and that there could not be any circumstances, where what he did was valid based on his own conscience, morals or ethics ...
I'm not sure if that sentence even makes any sense. Seems to be a missing word on conjunction or something. But you are correct in that there could not be any circumstances where what he did was valid based on his own conscience, morals or ethics. Whatever the reasons he may have had, his actions were invalidated when he put other people in grave danger. Whatever his conscience or morals told him to do, acceptable ethics would dictate that he be true to his word and deal with his conscience and morals in the manner in which he agreed to participate, namely, by the proper channels and behavior. He did not do that.

That's certainly a viewpoint and a belief one can have and hold, but it isn't necessarily the only one possible - not by a long shot ...
The phrase "not by a long shot" implies there are many other possibilities, certainly more than one. I can't think of a single possibility in this scenario where such a disregard for honesty and commitment which results in grave risk to others, including the deaths of others, can be justified. Can you?

I actually have fairly high degree of certainty on it ... at any rate, it was a qualified statement ... ;)
Actually, no, it wasn't qualified. The use of "may have an interest in" certainly is the attempt at qualifying it, but threw that attempt under the bus with "Fact is, the only people we've heard from after the fact..." It completely precludes the possibility of any of those "only people" not having an interest at all in portraying things in a less than accurate light, and absolutely removes the possibility of any of those same people having any interesting whatsoever in portraying things accurately. It's possible, plausible, even probable that some of those people we've heard from might have an interest in lying, but it's also possible, plausible and even probable that at least a few of them might not have an interest in lying at all.

You may very well have a high degree of certainty, or at least a high degree of belief (see religiosity, pious, sanctimonious), but it's not very likely that the political goals of the Administration, and the US military, and the media, and his captors, and those he served with are all such that they would independently or collectively have an interest in misrepresenting the truth, be it the same misrepresentations or varying self-serving misrepresentations. To dismiss the possibility that someone, anyone at all, even one person whom we've heard from thus far only has an interest in accurately portraying the truth, simply because you believe otherwise, is not only the bedrock of conspiracy theory, but a whopper of a logical fallacy (I believe it, therefor it is).
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
No, it doesn't.
We'll have to agree to disagree then ... since it appears to me that it does.

What part of "From accounts thus far," are you having difficulty with?
None ... I just recognize that your use of those words in a sentence do not preclude or rule out that you are drawing a conclusion based on something you assume is (perhaps fundamentally) true - as seemingly illustrated by your tacit admission in second quote below (even though you try to frame it as me being correct ... lol ...)

I'm not sure if that sentence even makes any sense. Seems to be a missing word on conjunction or something.
... "a missing word on conjunction" ?

Well, tell me at which particular point or place in the sentence you feel there is something missing ... and I'll do my best to clarify it and make it understandable.

But you are correct in that there could not be any circumstances where what he did was valid based on his own conscience, morals or ethics.
That isn't my position - it's yours - and it's logically flawed.

Whatever the reasons he may have had, his actions were invalidated when he put other people in grave danger.
As far as I know, he didn't put anyone in "grave danger" ...

Even if he decided to leave - which isn't anywhere near a certainty at this point - it would have been others that may have chosen to do that (put other people in grave danger) in some effort that they believed may have accrued to Bergdahl's (and very likely, their own) benefit ...

And on the "grave danger" thingie: it's nice drama - but that movie has already played ... although I'm fairly sure you'll have a very receptive audience here ...

Whatever his conscience or morals told him to do, acceptable ethics would dictate that he be true to his word and deal with his conscience and morals in the manner in which he agreed to participate, namely, by the proper channels and behavior. He did not do that.
From a moral or ethical perspective, a commitment made - that was granted and given in good faith based on representations by others (which then turn out to be false) - renders invalid any moral or ethical obligation to uphold the commitment.

It may simply be a matter of "good faith" on Bergdahl's part ... and "bad faith" on the USG's (or others) ... or "breach of contract" ... on the part of the USG's (or others) ...

A failure to exercise good faith and deal honestly, places one at risk of having commitments others have made to one, deliberately broken or remain unfulfilled ...

Good faith (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Go Bowe ...

Go Bowe!

By Karen Kwiatkowski
June 4, 2014

The Gitmo prisoner swap that sent Bowe Bergdahl into the loving arms of the psych ward at Landstuhl Military Hospital near Ramstein AB, Germany is in the news.

The swap is viewed by the Republican Party establishment, in an election year, as an Obama media diversion from delicious and well-deserved dereliction of duty charges against the Veterans Administration.

Republicans are also unhappy, and neoconservatives particularly so, because it signals the public end of the end in Afghanistan — an endless play-war for the United States government that all but evaporated from the mind of the American public several years ago. In an age of economic contraction, average Americans see no reason to pay for Afghanistan any longer, absent some sign of benefit, some visible victory. Neocons may insist that absence of victory in not evidence of the absence of victory, but I think by now, even Don Rumsfeld gets the picture. Just as for the Soviets, Afghanistan has been a USG-directed waste of trillions of dollars, millions of Afghan lives, and hundreds of thousands of American lives and families damaged or ruined by a soldier’s service in uniform.

Some neoconservative hawks like fellow POW Lt John McCain, who ended his active duty career by being shot down while bombing rice paddies in another foreign country, in another unpopular war, after wrecking two fighter planes and playing a role in the deadly fire on the USS Forrestal in 1967, are extremely angry about bringing home Sgt Bowe Bergdahl. Here is a POW who is a nobody with the nerve to question an overseas war, in the face of evidence that the US government was lying to soldiers, and to the American public. McCain was always a somebody, and he has never had the nerve to question government policy unless he saw a political gain in doing so.

Curiously, many in the right would gladly support Obama’s policies if a midwestern Republican were implementing them. These same folks took pride in the Bush II era, yet are totally offended by Obama’s identical foreign policy, his identical pernicious domestic meddling and state growth. It isn't racism, but it may be harder to fix. Most of what passes for the political right as a movement doesn't even understand what they stand for. They don't understand fundamentals of federalism and limited government, they don't understand the language and motivations of the founders, and they lack the kind of self-awareness that might allow them to question why they feel there is such a difference between a George W and Barack H.

Had President Bush conducted this prisoner exchange, brokered by Qatar or even his friends in Saudi Arabia, I imagine the spin would be a bit different from the raging superpatriots on the neocon left and right. I’m sure we would find (after the fact) that Bush had in fact consulted with members of Congress privately, and that the return of the dangerous Talibani to Afghanistan (a year from now (?), after being held by a US-friendly khanate) was actually a great strategy to ensure that the USG would have another stick with which to beat the post-Karzai government into signing a status of forces agreement that allows US troops to stay in country and do what they and (the military establishment and global banking elite) want.

What? Is Obama a political genius — with impeccable timing, and a boldness that even his enemies would admire? I mean, no less than Dick Cheney just called Obama the weakest president ever — and then the sly politico openly bucks a Congressional rule about a legal netherworld of Guantanamo and its inmates, who in fact are not POWs, but detainees, because no war was ever declared, and as Washington well knows, these prisoners have been found not to be subject to Geneva Convention rights, precisely because they are not prisoners of war. And war, whether on terrorism or poppy growers, or a political sector of a foreign country, is not the correct legal term — but I guess words mean whatever we want them to mean, in this fantasy world of political rules and niceties, of tortured limbs and tortured logic.

But back to Bowe Bergdahl. I worry more about him today in the hands of the USG, in this post-Wikileaks and post-Edward Snowden world than I ever did when he was in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Bowe, home-schooled, raised with an ethical spine, and informed by classical and worldly readings, had already become disillusioned by the lies and the falsity of what our soldiers were being asked to do in Afghanistan. His disillusionment would find flight in his words, and if it is true that he walked away, in his actions that would inspire many if widely known.

When one can observe and measure the world around him or her, and articulate what he sees, and can use language and logic to explore what it all means, this is a gift, rarely seen. The soldier poet, the veteran who becomes a worker of words to deal with what he has seen and perceived about power, and love, and hate and war, politics and human beings – this solder and this veteran are extremely valuable.

But because they can tell the truth and speak it nobly, if the truth they speak goes against the desires of the state, or falsifies a state fairy tale, these men and women become dangerous.

I don't know Bowe. But when I read the letters Bowe wrote home five years ago, I see the simple words of a brave thinker. He is in a class of men who use language and live their lives in service to honesty and personal integrity. This is rare, and when it is found, the hacks and sycophants of governments everywhere become enraged. In fact, the loud collective hysteria of the hacks and sycophants is quite helpful in identifying those we should be listening to, and learning from.

The existence of one Bowe Bergdahl speaking the truth will undercut ten statist thinktanks, a hundred neoconservative op ed writers, a thousand GOP and Democratic warmongering strategists, and can soothe the minds of millions of Americans who sense the truth but cannot articulate it. Bowe is not safe in the hands of the military, where men with guns and men with medical degrees all serve the state, with too much obedience and too little honor. I hope his time with the debriefers and the government psychiatrists is short.

If Bowe gets home and is allowed to live his life, it will be the right thing, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. If this episode leads to more discussion of the legal and Catch-22 status of Gitmo and the utter inability of anyone there to get a legitimate trial, or to be released without controversy, that would be good. If it leads to a deeper discussion of the real nature of the evil the USG has been doing in Afghanistan for the past decade, and more awareness of Afghan politics today, that's fine. And, if due to Washington politics and reactive anger by war lovers some aspect of this case leads to an impeachment of the President, after we've seen so many impeachable offenses that never motivated the Republican House to act, well, that would be icing on the cake.

Go, Bowe - LewRockwell.com

The rest will have to wait for later.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
[h=1]For fallen soldiers' families, Bergdahl release stirs resentment[/h]
"The U.S. military has not said how Bergdahl fell into the insurgents’ hands, but several of those from his unit say he became disillusioned with the war and abandoned his post during a nighttime guard shift, an act of desertion that would normally incur severe punishment."

http://news.yahoo.com/fallen-soldiers-families-bergdahl-release-stirs-resentment-032528782.html
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Since terrorist lives are worthless it doesn't matter how many of them you are talking about, one American life will be worth more than the sum of their lives. The bigger question is how many American lives are worth one American life.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Speaking of enragement and the loud collective hysteria of the hacks and sycophants, here's some by the Big Daddy Neocon Chickenhawk himself:

 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
After having seen enough of the Idiot Brigade on Fox News in the last 24 - 36 hours to last me a lifetime, I'm left to wonder what's really behind the incessant, rabid frothing at the mouth:

Hating on Bowe Bergdahl

What's behind the vicious campaign against the last American POW in Afghanistan?

by Justin Raimondo, June 04, 2014


Embittered by double defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven out of both countries with their tails between their legs, the War Party is looking for scapegoats, and has found one in the least likely place – the ranks of the US Army. That’s right: the "support the troops" contingent is now intent on re-torturing Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, a 26-year-old Idaho native held captive by the Taliban for five horrific years.

A concerted campaign, stage-managed by "Republican strategists" – i.e. Richard Grenell, former Romney foreign policy consultant fired for being too gay – is pitting some of Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl's former comrades against the just-released prisoner-of-war. The former claim Bergdahl is a "traitor" who deserted his post: a 2012 Rolling Stone piece by Michael Hastings implies as much. Yet we really don't know what happened: in a Taliban propaganda video Bergdahl says he was caught after he "lagged behind" on patrol. And this US government cable posted by WikiLeaks contains intercepted Taliban communications hailing his capture and claiming it occurred in the course of an attack on Bergdahl's base while he was using a latrine.

We don't yet know the circumstances of his capture, and so these calls for prosecution are premature, to say the least. Not that legal niceties like evidence matter to the baying wolves of the neocon media: they want vengeance for the war they lost and were widely blamed for. Having lost on the battlefield in Afghanistan, the War Party is seeking a victory on the home front.

The persecution of Bowe Bergdahl is just the first chapter in the neocons' ongoing revisionist history of the Afghan war. And we know the theme of this work of fiction from the very first act: it's a tired replay of the old "we-were-stabbed-in-the-back" myth promulgated by failed Napoleons in every country. In the American version, they said – and still say – the same thing about the Vietnam war – we were prevented from winning by squeamish liberals and anti-American war protesters, who secretly (and not so secretly) supported the Commie cause.

In Bergdahl's case, his alleged desertion becomes a metaphor for all opposition to the war, with his angry emails to his father appearing to be his real "crime." Yet amid all the speculation and unseemly clamor, one weird anomaly stands out: soldiers don't usually go AWOL while they’re in Afghanistan. They wait until they get back to the US on leave: Bergdahl's case is, to my knowledge, a first. Did he really think he was going to walk to India, as he half-jokingly remarked to his former comrades? None of this makes much sense.

Which leads to the main question: if he did desert, what triggered him? A gung ho idealistic pro-military guy from Idaho doesn't volunteer for the military, go to Afghanistan, and suddenly wake up one morning determined to walk away. In 2012 the New York Times reported:

"At first his e-mails home were effusive. 'He was happy as a clam," Mr.[Robert] Bergdahl [Bowe’s father] said. He wrote of 'how beautiful it was, how wonderful the people were.' But the tone of his son’s e-mails soon darkened, Mr. Bergdahl said, although he declined to say specifically what set off the change."

In the Hastings account of Bergdahl's emails, however, a bit more of the story comes out:

"He then referred to what his parents believe may have been a formative, possibly traumatic event: seeing an Afghan child run over by an MRAP. 'We don’t even care when we hear each other talk about running their children down in the dirt streets with our armored trucks… We make fun of them in front of their faces, and laugh at them for not understanding we are insulting them.'"

This seems fairly straightforward: Bergdahl clearly witnessed war crimes which had not only gone unpunished but were openly acknowledged and treated as jokes. He is, perhaps, capable of pointing an accusing finger at some of those who are being dredged up to label him a traitor. Whether their campaign of calumny is a preemptive strike, it’s too early to say: we have yet to hear from Bowe Bergdahl, who, it seems, is having difficulty remembering how to speak English.

The more I learn about this case, the less conclusive are the established facts: did he just walk off, alone, or is the latrine story true? Bits of evidence point in opposite directions.

What we do know is that Bergdahl was radically disenchanted with the US military and the war itself: we also know he witnessed at least one specific incident in which a young Afghan girl was run over – deliberately? – by US military personnel. What other atrocities did Bergdahl witness – and was, perhaps, forced to take part in? If these are the facts, then his seemingly crazy decision to set off into the Afghan countryside begins to make at least a modicum of (moral) sense.

In this context, it's hard to imagine the administration prosecuting him for desertion: does the US State Department really want Bergdahl to testify how US soldiers in an armored truck laughed as they ran down an Afghan girl? As for the Fox News crowd, this could backfire on the War Party, big-time – remember that old adage about fools rushing in? Well, it wouldn't be the first time, now would it?

They’ll rush in anyway, because this is the kind of thing they enjoy. The Fox News bleach blondes and radio screamers are practically frothing at the mouth: they point suspiciously at the prominence of Robert Bergdahl’s beard, sure signs he's a "Muslim convert" and Taliban sympathizer! That's the level of demagoguery we’re seeing around this issue – and, I warn you, it’s going to get worse.

As usual, the tone-deaf Republicans – eagerly seizing on this as their signature foreign policy Benghazi-substitute issue – are their own worst enemies. While the burning question of "who lost Afghanistan?" may be a hot topic of conversation on their busy little blogs, out in the real world the country is sick unto death of hearing about Afghanistan.

The very last thing the American people want to see is some poor kid who got snookered into fighting that worthless war get pilloried for the sins of US policymakers. Yet what we are about to witness, I’m afraid, is the disgusting spectacle of an Idaho farm boy crucified by a gaggle of partisan Pharisees.
Hating on Bowe Bergdahl by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com
 
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